why are foot problems so common?

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misskk88

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Hi all :)

Just a question I thought I would ask your opinions on.

I know that a lot of people have posted about their horses feet (me included!), but also notice that many of the same problems keep happening- Under run heels, long toes and retracted frog.

I did not realise that feet problems were so common amongst horses. My question is why are they so common? I know that much of this can be attributed to diet, health etc, but how much of it falls on the care of the actual foot? I.E through farrier and trimming? If much of the issue is caused by shoeing or trimming incorrectly, why does it seem to keep happening, after all farriers/trimmers are profressionally trained?

No reason for question- having recently discovered power of diet and supplements, was just curious for what further promotes bad or good hoof growth and why same issues are very common :)
 
Nearly everyone blames the Hoof care professional, but more times than not, finances dictate that farriery/trimming intervals are left too long, people change farrier/trimmer frequently, horse is ridden inconsistently (ie 20 times a month and then not at all for a few weeks), in the case of barefeet- the trimmer may even visit too often for the work that the horse is doing which then causes a whole different set of problems. And as the saying goes........no foot, no horse!
And that is before you start looking at diet and management!
 
My immediate thoughts:

Standard of shoeing is poor.
Horses being shod all year round.
Restricted movement/turnout.
Spending too long stood in a stable.
Diet - so many feeds are full of crap that's not good for horses or their feet.
The 'Quick fix' mentality. If feet are poor people want to just paint on a lotion or add a supplement instead of dealing with the issue.
 
Very little to do with trim imo.

Wrong food and lack of work are the two big problems. Shoes fall into the lack of work category, because they stop the back of the foot from working. I think that here were fewer foot problems when it was normal to have a period out of shoes every year. But barefoot horses with insufficient work to their feet also get foot problems.
 
It's a world wide problem - and plenty dont' acutally know what a well conformed hoof should look like. The other thing that is very common here, is that a farrier is judged by how long the shoes stay on for! And if they can get eight weeks out of it, then that guy is a star.
 
In my experience trim has improved my horses feet - there are progress pics of my TB on my profile. Regularly trimming was also key to my TB.
 
Lack of movement is the biggest issue IMO. And the wrong environment. I am lucky enough to have access to 100 acres of rocks, gravel and crappy fibrous grazing: your average UK horse owner would have a fit. I can watch bad feet improve (unshod) simply by putting the horse into that environment.
 
OwnedbyJoe said:
Lack of movement is the biggest issue IMO. And the wrong environment. I am lucky enough to have access to 100 acres of rocks, gravel and crappy fibrous grazing: your average UK horse owner would have a fit. I can watch bad feet improve (unshod) simply by putting the horse into that environment.
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This.

The one foot rehab yard we have in this country recovers horse after horse that has been written off by vets and farriers for foot problems. They have recreated your environment, as far as they can, with tracks, and they never[/] trim. Yet their success rate is phenomenal, and insurance companies pay out for their services.
 
Just to add, of course if you cannot create self trimming horses by keeping or riding the horse on abrasive surfaces, then the correct trim is important.
 
cptrayes said:
This.

The one foot rehab yard we have in this country recovers horse after horse that has been written off by vets and farriers for foot problems. They have recreated your environment, as far as they can, with tracks, and they never[/] trim. Yet their success rate is phenomenal, and insurance companies pay out for their services.
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Is this the Rockley Horse Blogs you mentioned above? I have looked at their blog, purely out of interest about feet and am literally amazed by the transformation- and also just how terrible feet can get through lack of understanding, wrong trimming/shoeing, wrong diet and environment.

Having had a horse that use to be a regular shoe puller with poor feet and soles, I am not completely new to dealing with hoof issues. I thought they were as good as they were going to get and my farrier has done a tremendous job so far with getting her sound, with good hoof shape and quality(she is now bare foot and only ocassionally footy on very stony tracks), however I am amazed what change of diet, and a slight change in work has done for her.

I think one of the major issues is that people do not recognise a 'good' hoof', or general care of it through diet and work.... I was one of them until I started reading up and self educating. I felt that rather than be led by YO/YMs who have more experience, I needed to trust my own opinion and care for my horse- whom I know inside out. Slightly embarassing but I am just happy my horse is better off for it!
 
In my own case, my mare's hooves went downhill after I moved house and had to change farrier. One of the key things in getting them to improve, was changing farrier again. Hoof care professionals do play a big part in this. The thing that now really grates with me, are the ones that perpetuate the 'typical TB hooves' myth. When people believe that their horse is doomed to have poor hooves (and I'm not talking about horses with genuine genetic problems such as connemaras and HWSS) as they have a TB or part TB, they accept that that's how it is, which is a massive shame.
 
I think the trim is very important and that few horses self trim with advantage even those doing high mileages. I have always found that some human intervention helps even though that may be minimal. The knack is not completely "self trimming" and letting the horse do what it wants with it's feet but correct trimming for that particular horse.
Some of the problems come from the standards of farriery however perhaps when feet start running forward it is not always possible to correct them with shoeing. Some certainly from owners leaving shoes on too long and some from owners not knowing enough to take their farriers to task and insist on good work. Some from some vets who wouldn't recognise a good foot if it jumped out and hit them and who therefore accept low standards of farriery.

I have several rescue horses that are unrideable. Some cannot even be led out in hand as they are unsafe. They simply live out in a field in the daytime, walking down a short hard track several times a day to get there and are stabled on mats at night. That is not much movement. I can only attribute lack of foot problems to the fact that I have always kept their feet trimmed back so that the back of the foot works. I am only an amateur so if I can see this I don't see why some farriers cannot.

Much is made of Rockley not trimming their rehab horses. To my mind this is not unusual for horses that have just come out of shoes. The normal way to deshoe horses always used to be to remove the shoes, keep the edges sanded to stop chipping as the nail holes came down and then turn them out and let them get on with it.
It is nice to see Rockley's success but it is not a new idea, they are just lucky to have so many more facilities to speed up the process.
 
paddy555 said:
I think the trim is very important and that few horses self trim with advantage even those doing high mileages. I have always found that some human intervention helps even though that may be minimal. The knack is not completely "self trimming" and letting the horse do what it wants with it's feet but correct trimming for that particular horse.
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Your experience is completely the reverse. of mine, and of the experience of the owners of the horses who go to Rockley, some of which are lame when anyone tries to impose on them their idea of what their feet should look like.

Can I question your level of experience, Paddy, and ask how many horses with foot lameness you have rehabbed? This is not to get at you, but I know the Rockley numbers intimately, as does anyone who follows the blog they are so generous to share. I'm just trying to guage whether you have the level of experience that would cause me to question what I 'think' I already know.




Much is made of Rockley not trimming their rehab horses. To my mind this is not unusual for horses that have just come out of shoes. The normal way to deshoe horses always used to be to remove the shoes, keep the edges sanded to stop chipping as the nail holes came down and then turn them out and let them get on with it.
It is nice to see Rockley's success but it is not a new idea, they are just lucky to have so many more facilities to speed up the process.
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Rockley has barefoot horses coming in increasing numbers, this is not restricted to horses newly out of shoes. Owners are also strongly advised to keep up a self trimming regimen for all time, and there are reports on the blog of horses becoming unsound again, thankfully temporarily, when a trimmer thinks they can do better than the horse.


They aren't lucky, they worked darned hard and spent a lot of money to set it up, and continue to work darned hard and spend a lot of money to maintain it The owner earns such a pittance compared to her previous career, she's almost running a charity :D
 
I don't know really but I think it's a combination of things. Poor hoof development because of insufficient movement on varying terrain from birth, shoeing young and back to back, insufficient frequency of trimming so hooves get long and a lot has to be removed each time. Top of my list is diet, excessive rich grass/high sugar hays and lack of key minerals etc. Rockley make their own haylage off their grasses and as far as I am aware feed mineral etc. supplement balanced to their haylage and grass and restrict access to grazing. I think this is a (? big) factor in their successes.

I am pondering if a horses' hooves are compromised in any way and not lame, the hooves will be more prone to strains and injuries?

ps. CPT Paddy555 has been in the bf hoof game for many years and long before most of us.
 
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Faracat said:
In my own case, my mare's hooves went downhill after I moved house and had to change farrier. One of the key things in getting them to improve, was changing farrier again. Hoof care professionals do play a big part in this. The thing that now really grates with me, are the ones that perpetuate the 'typical TB hooves' myth. When people believe that their horse is doomed to have poor hooves (and I'm not talking about horses with genuine genetic problems such as connemaras and HWSS) as they have a TB or part TB, they accept that that's how it is, which is a massive shame.
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I had the same experience. I moved to another part of the country and was so frustrated at the standard of farriery. In my former county, it was easy to get a good farrier, but found difficulty in getting a good one once I moved. People recommended farriers but when I looked at their horses feet, I was surprised that they were happy with their work.
The blame also lies with the owners. It's not good enough to say, I know nothing about hooves or to leave it to the professionals. It's a three way deal between the horse, the owner and the farrier. Each needs to have some input.

That said, our soft, lush grazing, restricted movement in small fields and stabling don't help. Feet that aren't conditioned by abrasive terrain, good hygiene, correct nutrition and consistent work are at a disadvantage. Sometimes, I'm more surprised by horses that remain sound against the odds, rather than the one's that don't.
 
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I do wonder about the rockley's self trimming when they get home and off the tracks, as even when I am doing a lot of roadwork I cannot keep up with Frank's growth - even on the side he wears most (lateral).

Currently trialling doing a little light rasping/roll of toe between trims as frankly the amount there after 6 weeks last time was ridiculous!
 
cptrayes said:
They aren't lucky, they worked darned hard and spent a lot of money to set it up, and continue to work darned hard and spend a lot of money to maintain it The owner earns such a pittance compared to her previous career, she's almost running a charity :D
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Presumably the owner made a choice to give up a well paid career to set up and run Rockley? I am not saying they don't work hard, in fact I never said anything derogatory about Rockley. However it must have been a personal choice. No one made them did they? If that is the case I am not sure why you have mentioned it.

If my experiences are totally different to yours I can live with that. My experiences are my own first hand experiences over many years (thanks Amanda, I feel not only "old" but "ancient" LOL) I don't quote anything from blogs, I simply base it on what I have personally found.


I don't think I ever suggested "impose" on them an idea of what their feet should look like, indeed I was saying that it used to be common practice taking horses barefoot to leave them to get on with it for a while. I don't think keeping chipping up to nail holes under control is particuarly imposing a trim on them, merely trying to prevent damage as the old hoof grows down.

To deal with the self trimming comments. I read the Rockley blog of 19 June. A lot about self trimming and a couple of lines at the bottom saying there was nothing wrong with trimming. A lot of people would read that and not have the experience to know how to evaluate it. By the time they have enough experience to do so they will probably have realised trimming may not have been such a bad idea after all. There is a difference between self trimming horses being rehabbed at Rockely and the average barefoot owner.

The problem with the blog was that it simply didn't reflect my experiences. Let me give you 2 examples.
There was mention that even some horses in no work could self trim. I gave this a try. Firstly with an arab. He is unrideable (always has been), now aged 19 and has been with me for 14 years. For approx 12 years I trimmed him regularly, probably monthly in summer. He had no problem with that. Feet where they should be, WL tight, and very very sound on his hard track to his field. Then I decided to try the approach of self trimming to see if it would work with an non worked horse. His feet simply grew long and ran forward. The WL was no longer tight and they went from a state that I was pretty proud of to, well, feet I did not want to own. I spent a long time bringing them back. Regular trimming has been essential.

I did the same a second unworked horse, also as an example but with a different foot type. The feet did not run forward they simply grew. This horse spent a fair time on concrete, as did the arab. Concrete is a pretty trimming surface but to no avail. Trimming was required. All non triming achieved, appart from less back ache for me, was cracks in the walls. He didn't have cracks when he was regularly trimmed and the edges rolled, he doesn't have them now he is back in regular trimming.

However looking at a true self trimming horse I look at my first one. He self trimmed for 31 years of which 24 years were with me. He did a lot of work. He was very sound over all surfaces. He simply couldn't be trimmed (due to earlier problems) so he had to self trim. Shoeing as out of the question as we couldn't even trim him.

So, he should have been a perfect example of a self trimming, working, barefoot horse. Perhaps his feet wouldn't have looked perfect but no big deal.
In reality what really happened was that the medial toe quarter grew on both fronts. This wasn't flare that was required to balance the body it was excess growth that needed to be removed. Preferably with a pair of nippers. As we couldn't he removed it himself. It grew longer and longer and eventually started to break. Breaking continued and bits broke off in a very jagged fashion. To try and trim and roll the edge I varied his workload betwen harsh stone to break the excess off and sandy tracks to roll them..
As the excess broke off the feet cracked vertically about the broken edge. This went quite high up the wall. His feet looked very uncared for. He was sound I have to admit but I frequently wondered what I would say to the RSPCA if I was every questioned over his feet and lack of foot care.

I am afraid that is the reality to me of self trimming. If the owner doesn't trim the horse will. I have found that what the owner does produces far better results than what most horses do on their own. From the number of people who also need to trim their horses I am not the only one.
 
You said Rockley were lucky. All I did was point out that they are not lucky in any way, they have had a lot of foresight and worked very hard to achieve what they have.


You are misunderstanding the concept of self trimming. Self trimming is where the horse does all the timing NECESSARY for itself due to working enough on abrasive surfaces. Not all horse rider combinations can achieve this and those which can't need trimming by a human.
 
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Regarding human trimming versus self trimming, I think it is possible that trimming on a four to six week cycle makes the horse mistake the trim for sudden increase in wear, and promptly put on a growth spurt so that it needs turning again in another four to six weeks. This is not my idea, it came from brucea, but I think they may be some truth in it.

In my opinion it is preferable, if it can be achieved, for the owner to trim weekly as a minimum rather than pay a trimmer to take six weeks growth off at one time.

Though I do understand that not everyone would be happy or feel competent to do this, so it remains a paradox.

Self trimming horses are the ideal, not everyone can achieve it and not every horse needs it by a long chalk :)
 
fwiw we seem to have a lot less growth this trimming cycle (after taking a fair amount off) than we did last cycle when he had a more conservative trim so although that more growth might make sense it isn't occurring atm! Taking too much off in one go is definitely not good for him though (he still has quite flat soles so not rock crunching anyway) hence me now playing with an old rasp!
 
cptrayes said:
You are misunderstanding the concept of self trimming. Self trimming is where the horse does all the timing NECESSARY for itself due to working enough on abrasive surfaces. Not all horse rider combinations can achieve this and those which can't need trimming by a human.
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if I was a novice can you explain how I would know the difference as to whether my horse was doing all the trimming necessary itself and whether I needed a human to trim it?
If I was a novice, probably with my first barefoot horse, and I had read the Rockley blog of 19/6 then I would have been so convinced, it would have been very persuasive. It was all so logical and a very good case for self trimming. It didn't seem to like trimmers very much. One supposed trimmer got criticised for questioning self trimming. I would almost be wondering if I could actually trust a trimmer. The horse knows best what he needs. I cannot remember much, if any, mention of finding out why the horse was producing the supportive flare, unbalanced hoof etc.

The Rockley blog tells me that a trim can only ever take away hoof wall or (heaven forbid) bar, sole or frog and that they are more than capable of dealing with any excess very efficiently.

Yikes, heaven forbid. I am in dangerous territory now with one of my boys. I trim his bars. For a beginner reading it it would be a definite "no no". For mine it works best that way.


It just seems that pushing this "self trimming" message could lead some people into trouble if they didn't have the experience to know what they were looking at. Few can truly self trim. Many need a little help, some need more help.

My first horse that I mentioned did all the trimming NECESSARY due to working on abrasive surfaces. He would just have been so much better with a little human help. I don't regard the cracks it produced as the flare broke off as good.
 
If your horse needed the help then clearly he was NOT doing all the trimming necessary.

No one is 'pushing' not trimming. Everyone is acknowledging that self trimming is an ideal that is not always achievable.
 
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The thing about the Rockley horses is that they are on the move all day on a purpose built track system with different types of surface where they have to move from place to place to get hay and water so they are self trimming their feet far more than a horse being exercised and then going into a paddock.
Two of my horses are almost completely self trimming when shoeless and one is not and the other I don't know about yet .q
 
I also don't see why self trimming is seen as ideal to me ideal is a sound horse with healthy feet I don't really care how I get there by trimming or not trimming .
 
cptrayes said:
Regarding human trimming versus self trimming, I think it is possible that trimming on a four to six week cycle makes the horse mistake the trim for sudden increase in wear, and promptly put on a growth spurt so that it needs turning again in another four to six weeks. This is not my idea, it came from brucea, but I think they may be some truth in it.

In my opinion it is preferable, if it can be achieved, for the owner to trim weekly as a minimum rather than pay a trimmer to take six weeks growth off at one time.

Though I do understand that not everyone would be happy or feel competent to do this, so it remains a paradox.

Self trimming horses are the ideal, not everyone can achieve it and not every horse needs it by a long chalk :)
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Absolutely CPT. I have 7, all in the same environment. Two self trim, one is a foal, the rest need touch ups. How often and how much varies.
20 year old Connemara - prone to growing long toe and underunning at the heel. Can't get her feet "ideal" whatever I do so I am resigned to having her looks a bit flat footed. She is sound, but needs boots for longer rides. She is probably also insulin resistant but that's another story.
One mixed breed who came from lush dairy country with SHOCKING feet. She is much better but needs trimming. Doesn't move as mush as the others in the paddock either!
One brood mare who previously had laminitis so needs help.
Two Standardbreds self trim - never touch them.
The biggest conundrum is my Arab X who does 30km a week or more in training every week, barefoot, and STILL needs trimming!
It is (as in everything else) an interplay between diet, environment and genetics.
But 6 weeks between trims is too long. I strongly encourage owners to learn enough to do a touch up trim in between trimmer visits. Taking a bit off every one to two weeks is much better.
 
Goldenstar said:
I also don't see why self trimming is seen as ideal to me ideal is a sound horse with healthy feet I don't really care how I get there by trimming or not trimming .
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I think it's ideal because the feet are constantly right, not right immediately after a trim and then gradually not quite right over time.

It's also ideal for me as it means no hard work for my back :)

Soundness is obviously number one priority though. And a lot of people don't have the time or facilities to get their horses to self trim, it's not as simple as Rockley find it if you don't have tracks like theirs.
 
Haven't read the whole thread due to lack of time but my farrier OH would say firmly is is mostly due to too long intervals between trimming.
 
cptrayes said:
If your horse needed the help then clearly he was NOT doing all the trimming necessary.

No one is 'pushing' not trimming. Everyone is acknowledging that self trimming is an ideal that is not always achievable.
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I am sorry that you have misunderstood. He was doing all the trimming necessary to keep him sound and doing considerable mileage. It was just not conducive to good hoof care, IMHO total self trimming often isn't. Human intervention helps.

IMHO self trimming and "celery" is being pushed. Good trimmers/farriers should be pushed.

"I think it's ideal because the feet are constantly right," (sorry cannot get quotes to work)

what do you base that on? that the horse knows best. The big question is if the feet are "wrong" why???
 
I suppose that is why regular owner trimming is perhaps a happy medium cpt if self trimming not possible but true a bit more harder work.

I reckon we can conclude that as always all horses need treating as individuals ;)

paddy I know what you mean re a novice knowing whether something needs trimming or not. - Frank still wears laterally, so ends up with spare hoof wall medially in front, trimmer said because of his knees ;). - having the odd wear doesn't seem to affect his movement/landing/breakover (yard farrier was nosing at him the other week) but also he is the same if he has normal looking feet, perhaps he would cope just as well either way! I have a UKNCHP trimmer so of the rockley ilk originally and we have just started experimenting with his bars a bit more as they seem to try and self trim (split ready to about half way down) but never quite manage it on the surfaces we use so we are seeing what suits him best - on the basis that the only way to find out is to try it.
 
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