Why are Irish bred youngsters so much cheaper than WBs?

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Starbucks

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I don't know anything about WB breeding but all the nice looking youngsters with fancy sounding names can easily be 10k+. Where as ones with just Irish breeding never seem to be in that price bracket even if they have really top class event breeding.

Why is this? Is it because they don't have the paces / potential for pure dressage? Is it just a supply and demand thing?
 
id say you are looking at two very different markets.

Its pretty cheap to get yourself a TB mare, and cover with an irish draught stallion. Those youngsters come up a lot ( I know I'm looking at the moment) and seem to be in the region of £1.5k. Then have a look at the WB youngsters. The ones with top breeding including good dam lines, will rightly so be expensive. Good dam lines are worth paying for

Good proven dam lines on irish draught horses, will definitely push the prices up.
 
Asha said:
id say you are looking at two very different markets.

Its pretty cheap to get yourself a TB mare, and cover with an irish draught stallion. Those youngsters come up a lot ( I know I'm looking at the moment) and seem to be in the region of £1.5k. Then have a look at the WB youngsters. The ones with top breeding including good dam lines, will rightly so be expensive. Good dam lines are worth paying for

Good proven dam lines on irish draught horses, will definitely push the prices up.
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To breed any youngster and sell for £1.5k will mean the breeder is losing money even if the stud fee is relatively cheap, if the vets fees are kept to a minimum and they are living on grass that is "free" I cannot see how they can sell a straight youngster for so little.

I think it is more down to perception within the market place, the wb breeders promote their bloodlines far better, place a high value on even the wonky ones that are from barely proven lines, there are no records kept of all those that break early on in their careers all we hear about are the few that are very successful at the top levels which keep the over inflated prices up for the majority of youngsters that will never reach those levels but have people dreaming of finding the next Valegro.

I would rather buy a young horse bred from a proven tb mare, a successful racing career can be proof of soundness, than one from an unbroken wb broodmare that has never done a days work however good her bloodlines may be, at the end of the day all most of us want or need is a sound horse to have fun with, we don't need something with fancy breeding that cannot stay sound or is too complex to enjoy riding.
The breeders of tbx id stock need to promote their youngsters better and ask sensible prices, I think prices in Ireland are rising for well produced young horses and that will mean people having to pay more for a made horse which many are reluctant to do, prices in the middle range have barely changed in the many years I have been involved because the bottom end has gone lower and lower.
 
I'm not talking about random IDxTBs though, even ones with 4* very close relatives are not that expensive. I was looking at a yearling whose sire was full brother was high kingdom (London 2012 horse) and really good damn lines too and it was just over 3k!
 
I think the WB breeders and dealers are much better at marketing their horses. Also if something is more expensive the perception tends to be that it must be better.

I think the ISH people should market them on temperament and soundness as well as athleticism. Because warmbloods are equally athletic but sometimes their temperament and soundness can be a bit off. Just my pov.
 
be positive said:
To breed any youngster and sell for £1.5k will mean the breeder is losing money even if the stud fee is relatively cheap, if the vets fees are kept to a minimum and they are living on grass that is "free" I cannot see how they can sell a straight youngster for so little.

I think it is more down to perception within the market place, the wb breeders promote their bloodlines far better, place a high value on even the wonky ones that are from barely proven lines, there are no records kept of all those that break early on in their careers all we hear about are the few that are very successful at the top levels which keep the over inflated prices up for the majority of youngsters that will never reach those levels but have people dreaming of finding the next Valegro.

I would rather buy a young horse bred from a proven tb mare, a successful racing career can be proof of soundness, than one from an unbroken wb broodmare that has never done a days work however good her bloodlines may be, at the end of the day all most of us want or need is a sound horse to have fun with, we don't need something with fancy breeding that cannot stay sound or is too complex to enjoy riding.
The breeders of tbx id stock need to promote their youngsters better and ask sensible prices, I think prices in Ireland are rising for well produced young horses and that will mean people having to pay more for a made horse which many are reluctant to do, prices in the middle range have barely changed in the many years I have been involved because the bottom end has gone lower and lower.
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Totally agree with you about the breeder not making money, I don't know how they do it. I enquired about a couple of ID foals the other day, price was £1.2k. How do they do it ?
 
It depends on the sport, too. In general, I am told by a warmblood dealer I know, amateurs will pay more for a flashy warmblood to do dressage than for an equally bred one to do show jumping. His advice is if you want a good value warmblood to do dressage as an amateur, buy a showjumper with good paces!

I think the Irish horses are a better price match in that market, maybe?
 
Starbucks said:
I'm not talking about random IDxTBs though, even ones with 4* very close relatives are not that expensive. I was looking at a yearling whose sire was full brother was high kingdom (London 2012 horse) and really good damn lines too and it was just over 3k!
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Out of interest what had the dam done ?
 
Asha said:
Totally agree with you about the breeder not making money, I don't know how they do it. I enquired about a couple of ID foals the other day, price was £1.2k. How do they do it ?
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Own the stallion and run a lot of gifted/lent (broken down) mares in a feral herd.
 
Starbucks said:
I'm not talking about random IDxTBs though, even ones with 4* very close relatives are not that expensive. I was looking at a yearling whose sire was full brother was high kingdom (London 2012 horse) and really good damn lines too and it was just over 3k!
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mule said:
I think the WB breeders and dealers are much better at marketing their horses. Also if something is more expensive the perception tends to be that it must be better.

I think the ISH people should market them on temperament and soundness as well as athleticism. Because warmbloods are equally athletic but sometimes their temperament and soundness can be a bit off. Just my pov.
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I also wonder how many foals are being bred by the studs, wb's are now being produced in large numbers, being heavily promoted, the breeder of one decent foal per year cannot compete and may be happy with a fair return rather than thinking of it as a business, the £3k youngster bred to event is a longer term proposition than a precocious wb that may come out in age classes have a couple of years to build up the bloodline reputation then probably disappear, the eventer takes far longer to really prove itself as there just are not the same amount of shop windows available, by the time they get to 4* the lines may be no longer available, it is similar to NH racing, a Gold Cup winner will be around 8-9 years old by which time sire or dam may be long gone and a full sibling will not be possible, there are some repeat matings but they will not always be successful.
 
mule said:
I think the WB breeders and dealers are much better at marketing their horses. Also if something is more expensive the perception tends to be that it must be better.
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Agree with this - the way young horses are marketed will affect the price, as will the perceived profile of the breeder/dealer, although it is not a straight WB/Irish divide. We bought a WB 2yo that is full-brother to a very good Advanced horse, by a very successful Advanced stallion and with an exellent dam line. He was not at all expensive (less than the High Kingdom yearling mentioned above) and I can't see how the breeder could have made any profit by the time she had paid stud fee, gelding, worming, vaccination, winter keep, registration and DNA testing. But the breeder is not a big name, and he was advertised with just a photo of him looking very scruffy in a field, plus was in quite an out-of-the-way part of the country. Whereas if he had been sold by a big name breeder in say, the SE, with posh photos, and good videos of movement and loose jumping I'm sure he would have commanded a higher price.
 
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be positive said:
To breed any youngster and sell for £1.5k will mean the breeder is losing money even if the stud fee is relatively cheap, if the vets fees are kept to a minimum and they are living on grass that is "free" I cannot see how they can sell a straight youngster for so little.

I think it is more down to perception within the market place, the wb breeders promote their bloodlines far better, place a high value on even the wonky ones that are from barely proven lines, there are no records kept of all those that break early on in their careers all we hear about are the few that are very successful at the top levels which keep the over inflated prices up for the majority of youngsters that will never reach those levels but have people dreaming of finding the next Valegro.

I would rather buy a young horse bred from a proven tb mare, a successful racing career can be proof of soundness, than one from an unbroken wb broodmare that has never done a days work however good her bloodlines may be, at the end of the day all most of us want or need is a sound horse to have fun with, we don't need something with fancy breeding that cannot stay sound or is too complex to enjoy riding.
The breeders of tbx id stock need to promote their youngsters better and ask sensible prices, I think prices in Ireland are rising for well produced young horses and that will mean people having to pay more for a made horse which many are reluctant to do, prices in the middle range have barely changed in the many years I have been involved because the bottom end has gone lower and lower.
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Ditto this. Even using my own stallions, mare is swabbed, scanned in foal, fed, vaccinated and wormed, farrier, foal after 11 months, possibly weaned at 6 months, in my case not until 9 months. You are talking about breeders costs of £20/week - my hours of labour are free.
 
There were 2, one of the mares was by clover brigade and one it just said was related to Mr Cruise Control (4*). I think they were just brood mares. They were directly from the stud. The mares and the stallion were both young so I think that's why they were a bit cheaper but they send me details on a few and the ones with only ID/TB were max 5000 euros but the ones with WB breeding as well (but still reg ISH) were up to 8000.

So that's from the same Irish stud so there must be something else to it on top of the Irish not marketing them as well.
 
Starbucks said:
There were 2, one of the mares was by clover brigade and one it just said was related to Mr Cruise Control (4*). I think they were just brood mares. They were directly from the stud. The mares and the stallion were both young so I think that's why they were a bit cheaper but they send me details on a few and the ones with only ID/TB were max 5000 euros but the ones with WB breeding as well (but still reg ISH) were up to 8000.

So that's from the same Irish stud so there must be something else to it on top of the Irish not marketing them as well.
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Probably one of two reasons:

1. It may just be that the ID/TB youngsters just happened to be from less proven stock, or well less well-conformed, or had not as nice movement as the WB youngsters.

OR
2. It is down to supply and demand - ie the stud finds that more people want horses with warmblood breeding in them, so they can ask a higher price as they know more people want them.

Without knowing precise details of the young horses involved, it is quite hard to say!
 
Not sure where your looking or whether you're comparing apples and pears but the most expensive young horse I saw during my hunt was a truley beautiful traditionally bred ISH .
 
I did see an unbroken ISH the other day that was 15k so not saying there are not expensive ones out there! They just generally tend to be cheaper I think.
 
So I found out the stallion to the two cheap fillies who is full brother to high kingdom, he was injured as a 3yo apparently so won't be able to compete himself. So that partly explains the cheapness!
 
I've found it the other way around!

Trying to find a true Irish horse, which is well made, moves in an athletic way and shows scope, is nigh on impossible for under £8-10k.

I tried to replace my traditionally bred Irish horse 2 years ago after he was PTS sadly as a 7yro and I couldn't afford what I wanted- they were all 10-15k for a 4-6yro.

I had my choice of warmblood and warmblood X tb for around half that budget.

I think sheer numbers make a difference, there are many more warmbloods around now.
Yes you can find cheaper ID x sometimes but generally they haven't been the type I wanted to buy.

I wish we had more studs like Louella still, they are the sort of horses I like to buy.
 
Starbucks, how we see well bred horses here in Ireland is in terms of damline. I know the stallion you're talking about - it's Jackaroo. He's from a very good family but so are most decent stallions, that's the whole point of using them.

But to up the chances of getting a good competitor people like to use mares from families that have produced performers. Many horse people believe the mare is more influential than the stallion. So anyone can bring any old mare to Jackaroo, but if they don't bring a good mare they won't get a good foal.

To be honest prices of €5,000 and €8,000 for yearlings are very healthy. I would consider them to be strong prices especially the €8,000, imagine what the same horse will cost as a broken four year-old, it would have to be at least €15,000 to make it worth a producers time and effort. And €15,000 is a healthy price for a horse.
 
Will be interesting to see if the proposed removal of the dressage co-efficient in eventing goes ahead whether this will have any impact on the type of horses chosen for elite competition and the knock down impact lower down the scale as fashions seem to be determined by those at the top.
 
Starbucks said:
That's interesting Milli. I wonder if it's finding one with good paces that can be difficult?
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I don't know.
I don't need flashy movement but I like loose, rangy movement.
So many traditional bred I see now move like their elbows are tied together and they don't have the room through the gullet to make working correctly easy.
Unless you want to pay the bigger money which these lovely horses are worth but it isn't what I could afford on the last shopping trip.
 
be positive said:
I also wonder how many foals are being bred by the studs, wb's are now being produced in large numbers, being heavily promoted, the breeder of one decent foal per year cannot compete and may be happy with a fair return rather than thinking of it as a business, the £3k youngster bred to event is a longer term proposition than a precocious wb that may come out in age classes have a couple of years to build up the bloodline reputation then probably disappear, the eventer takes far longer to really prove itself as there just are not the same amount of shop windows available, by the time they get to 4* the lines may be no longer available, it is similar to NH racing, a Gold Cup winner will be around 8-9 years old by which time sire or dam may be long gone and a full sibling will not be possible, there are some repeat matings but they will not always be successful.
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I think to some extent the policy of the major studs for wb is trying to speed up the time cycle from the proven 8 or 9 year old by 3 year old evaluation and detailed records of the parentage and their performance record. Linear profiling will be replaced by genomic selection which has proved so successful in cattel breeding with also the aim of producing a horse with longer QLY
Having been able to look at the database of the FN it is amazing the detail that is available as an example it shows where the horse competed,who rode it and how much prize money was won. It will show how many mares a stallion covered and how many live foals were produced. I bred a dressage horse that won 56 points eventing as a seven year old but who the rider was is a demerit for the horse as a novice rider would show the horse was probably better.
 
Why Irish horses are (sometimes) cheaper than warmblood horses bred on the continent (or in the UK? I don't know much about that market): firstly there is still a significant oversupply; most breeders are farmers with a couple of mares, not big, organised stud farms and their overheads are not as high; the foals are often not handled and left to run on with their dams; stud fees not as high as for WB sires on the continent, foals are not stabled and we have LOTS of good grass.

In short, it is much cheaper to breed and rear a foal, and to get a young horse ready for sale here.
 
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