Why are most horses so 'Over' these days...

OK can I just ask did I read right that the OP would go into another persons horse's stable and feed it :eek:

So the horse is being managed for an illness or condition you dont know about and because YOU the OP dont think that the horse has enough of something you would give it more???

Holy cr@p this just gets worse and worse!! Im off as this Op is just scarey!!
 
Xmas Beastie said:
So by your own admission your a nasty, nosey interfering person? God help anyone on a yard with you

You are really bizarre and getting decidedly troll like with your threads.......
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I was joking, in fact you can ask any of my fellow liveries who would all say that I was helpful and friendly and took them on amazing hacks that they them talk about for weeks after. Funny that they all come to me for advice...

This is a forum... Is it not? Aren't we mean to have heated animated debates about all things horse???
 
Nah said:
To be fair, not all of us have Welsh Mountain ponies...
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No, but there are numerous people on this forum who rug their unclipped natives up to the eyeballs.

I have yet to actually come across a healthy horse of any breed that actually needs seven rugs on.
 
Xmas Beastie said:
OK can I just ask did I read right that the OP would go into another persons horse's stable and feed it :eek:

So the horse is being managed for an illness or condition you dont know about and because YOU the OP dont think that the horse has enough of something you would give it more???

Holy cr@p this just gets worse and worse!! Im off as this Op is just scarey!!
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No you did not read right... I said I would ring or text to tell the owner about the horse with no food and a 14 hour imprisonment ahead of it to gain their advise as to what they want me to do...

And the horses are not being managed for anything everyone does not know about because we are all friends so talk about such things.
 
Xmas Beastie said:
OK can I just ask did I read right that the OP would go into another persons horse's stable and feed it :eek:

So the horse is being managed for an illness or condition you dont know about and because YOU the OP dont think that the horse has enough of something you would give it more???

Holy cr@p this just gets worse and worse!! Im off as this Op is just scarey!!
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I do not think anybody should be feeding anyone else's horse. Neglected or not. It is one thing that riles me so much. If a horse is not being fed adequately, the necessary authorities need notifying, and the situation left as it is so as to expose the real situation. Too many people start throwing hay in here, and giving buckets of hard feed there, then the next Joe Bloggs comes along and does the same thing. Next thing horse is crippled with colic or lami. :mad:

Intervening and removing a lorry load of rugs when a horse is at imminent risk is a bit different. If a horse was sweating buckets I would remove the rugs to a level where they were comfortable, and inform the owner asap.
 
My pony was previously living wild for 5 years - he survived each winter, but didn't thrive and had a number of issues that need ongoing treatment/management because he lived wild.

Now he is in a one to one situation, surely it is my job to ensure he thrives as my pet and equine partner?

Rugging up to prevent weightloss, rainscald and maintain his well-being surely cannot be a bad thing?!
 
Agreed xb.

As a livery water is the one thing I'd interfere on. I'd never notice in a stable as wouldn't be looking but if patched out with mine I'd stick more in as would assume horse had booted over buckets or drunk.... I'd still Give a text incase was being monitored.
Oh I lie, I've also popped muzzles back on, done up loose rug bits etc, but only if horse has pulled off.

Anything more unless a welfare case is none of my business. If welfare then I wouldn't be lifting rugs etc, I'd tell yo that I had a concern. If I was still worried I'd report to the correct people. I wouldn't be changing things myself.
 
NativePonyLover said:
My pony was previously living wild for 5 years - he survived each winter, but didn't thrive and had a number of issues that need ongoing treatment/management because he lived wild.

Now he is in a one to one situation, surely it is my job to ensure he thrives as my pet and equine partner?

Rugging up to prevent weightloss, rainscald and maintain his well-being surely cannot be a bad thing?!
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Nobody's disputing that. What people are saying in the main is that there appears to be a fashion for piling rugs on to such an extreme extent that it gets ridiculous.

7 rugs for goodness sake! I mean, if a horse is getting that cold (unless it is from Norway or the Outer Hebrides!) in UK temps then there is something wrong somewhere, and the issue needs looking at closer.
 
Moomince Pie said:
Nobody's disputing that. What people are saying in the main is that there appears to be a fashion for piling rugs on to such an extreme extent that it gets ridiculous.

7 rugs for goodness sake! I mean, if a horse is getting that cold (unless it is from Norway or the Outer Hebrides!) in UK temps then there is something wrong somewhere, and the issue needs looking at closer.
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^^^ that
 
Barefoot Endurance said:
So you think it is ok to give your horse such small rations that he has eaten them all in the 3 hours he has already been in the stable only to spend anywhere up to another 14 hours in there with NOTHING to eat???

These are people I know and IF I was to maybe give their horse a little extra hay I most certainly would ring or text to say exactly that. In all cases the owner is more than grateful!!!
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The point is that the people who you know would be grateful to you for doing this have given, at least tacitly, permission for you to do so.

In other cases how do you know that the owner isn't operating under the vet's instructions for circumstances of which you have no knowledge? I used to have an elderly mare whose insides couldn't deal with unlimited hay and she was on a strictly limited amount. The vet put her on a regime that involved plenty of short chop forage and other feed suitable to her age and medical condition. A know-it-all like you decided that she knew better than the vet and gave my mare large amounts of hay. As a result of which the poor old girl nearly died and I had a vet's bill approaching £2000 which was not covered by insurance due to her age and medical history.
 
I'm sure most people admire WHW and the way they operate.

They say that very few of their horses are actually rugged, even far up north.

They also say that most natives don't need rugging at all, unless clipped.

Yes, you are right, basic horse care.

So why on earth are there people on this forum who pile stupid amounts of rugs on their unclipped natives. Or for that matter, any healthy horse?!

Strange how most of their horses don't seem to 'shiver' and fail to thrive in freezing conditions, without any rug on, nevermind seven.
 
Moomince Pie said:
7 degrees is really not cold! Horses are not grass. They don't fail to thrive just because it hits 7 degrees. That is the most bizarre comment.

I walk around in a thin top in 7 degrees. If there is a bitter windchill, fine, maybe up the rug slightly.

What do you think the Welsh Mountain ponies do when it hits -13 on the mountains?!
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For goodness sake, Welshies running in the hills have suitable natural coats. Horse who live indoors don't develop coats to the same extent as semi-feral ponies even if not rugged.

And if you think that 7 degrees Centigrade/45 degrees Fahrenheit is not cold then there is something wrong with you. And when did I say that horses ARE grass? I was using the temperature at which grass ceases to grow as an indicator of cold. As I pointed out earlier, it may be 7 degrees in the daytime or early evening but at this time of year it is not unlikely that the temperature will fall below freezing later in the night.

Do stop nit-picking. If you want to walk around in a thin top when everyone else is wearing woolies and a jacket that's your affair but that doesn't give you the right to tell me and others that you know what our horses need better than we do. I've been looking after my horse for 16 years - you haven't set eyes on him.
 
Ellen Durow said:
For goodness sake, Welshies running in the hills have suitable natural coats. Horse who live indoors don't develop coats to the same extent as semi-feral ponies even if not rugged.

And if you think that 7 degrees Centigrade/45 degrees Fahrenheit is not cold then there is something wrong with you. And when did I say that horses ARE grass? I was using the temperature at which grass ceases to grow as an indicator of cold. As I pointed out earlier, it may be 7 degrees in the daytime or early evening but at this time of year it is not unlikely that the temperature will fall below freezing later in the night.

Do stop nit-picking. If you want to walk around in a thin top when everyone else is wearing woolies and a jacket that's your affair but that doesn't give you the right to tell me and others that you know what our horses need better than we do. I've been looking after my horse for 16 years - you haven't set eyes on him.
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Oooh typical horsey person, sooo touchy!

I am actually aghast that you think 7 degrees is cold, and that you can possibly correlate the fact grass stops growing, to being able to tell if a horse may be cold or not!

And yes, the fact that welshies have their own coat, and are allowed to grow one, says everything. Allow your horse to grow one, and they will deal with a terribly low temp of 7 degrees! ;)

By the way, I do not include clipped, sick or elderly horses in this.
 
Goldenstar said:
Thank heavens why horses are at home with no helpful liverys to keep an eye on me.
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And thank heavens there are people out there that DO interfere from time to time, (much as I hate interfering people where there are minor issues). Without people taking the effort to notice these things then many a horse could go unnoticed that is suffering.

I don't think everyone on this thread is realising that actually, sometimes, it is a damn good thing people do get involved.

I also find that many people who have seriously neglected their animals, quite often (in fact most of the time) use the line of "it's a malicious call, they are just sticking their noses in". Or "they had no right to interfere".
 
Whilst I do hate seeing horses over-rugged for the weather (and by that I mean showing signs of distress ie sweat) I think it's a little high handed to be branding someone with a HW on a horse in winter an 'over-rugger', and a welfare issue.

I really struggle when the naturalist validate their arguments with 'but in the wild'. IMO the welsh mountain pony argument is invalid when dealing with horses living in a domesticated environment. Welshies in the mountains will be living in herd, so when arctic temperatures blow in, they can seek shelter and use their numbers to help maintain warmth. They also have varied terrain to negotiate, such as steep hills which would warm them further than the short stroll to the water trough. They are also used to it .

The thing with horse ownership is that everyone thinks they are doing the right thing for their horses. As long as the horse is happy and healthy, then what's the problem?
 
Aren't discussions like this how people change what they are doing / learn something new approach things differently? It pays to read others opinions and constantly question why do we do it that way??

For me any way I love learning new things and there is a lot I have done in the past I wish someone had said something.
 
Lyle said:
Whilst I do hate seeing horses over-rugged for the weather (and by that I mean showing signs of distress ie sweat) I think it's a little high handed to be branding someone with a HW on a horse in winter an 'over-rugger', and a welfare issue.

I really struggle when the naturalist validate their arguments with 'but in the wild'. IMO the welsh mountain pony argument is invalid when dealing with horses living in a domesticated environment. Welshies in the mountains will be living in herd, so when arctic temperatures blow in, they can seek shelter and use their numbers to help maintain warmth. They also have varied terrain to negotiate, such as steep hills which would warm them further than the short stroll to the water trough. They are also used to it .

The thing with horse ownership is that everyone thinks they are doing the right thing for their horses. As long as the horse is happy and healthy, then what's the problem?
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That's the point - 'they are used to it'. So fgs people, don't pile seven rugs on your horses (not talking about one hw by the way) and allow your horse to regulate properly. Plus, if a horse is stabled at night, they have shelter. Thirdly, the temps on the Welsh Mountains (high up) get far lower than the majority of places where domesticated horses are kept.

There is no problem if the horse is happy, healthy, not at any risk, but the fact is, that vets themselves are starting to show concerns about over rugging due to the increasing incidences of heat exposure.

Shame that more isn't published on this, so that people can actually see how common it is becoming.

FWIW, my mare has a fleece rug on at night in the stable, if temps reach around the 5 degree mark. Lower than 0 degrees, a thin stable rug. Lower than -5 a thin stable rug with fleece on. Getting to around -10 she has a wool newmarket with thin stable rug on top. Oh and that was when she was clipped. She is a warmblood. She never lost any weight, and she only had one hw on outside when her MW ripped all the way down, and that was temps of -13.

So no, I am not a 'naturalist' with regards rugging, and my horse is shod, but I do strongly feel that over rugging is becoming a real problem, and it's 'fashionable' these days to do it.
 
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Moomince Pie said:
And thank heavens there are people out there that DO interfere from time to time, (much as I hate interfering people where there are minor issues). Without people taking the effort to notice these things then many a horse could go unnoticed that is suffering.

I don't think everyone on this thread is realising that actually, sometimes, it is a damn good thing people do get involved.

I also find that many people who have seriously neglected their animals, quite often (in fact most of the time) use the line of "it's a malicious call, they are just sticking their noses in". Or "they had no right to interfere".
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I was a welfare officer so there's not much you can tell me about people getting involved with other peoples horses .
In my time I have been out freezing horses with no rugs on , they where fine .
Starving pony in tiny paddock , Shetland in starvation paddock.
Horses penned up with no grazing , in wood chip turnout during a very wet period .
I could go on and on you do get malicious calls based on people just not liking how others do things.
But on DIY livery yards a big issue is lmo lack of management , if managers and owner kept a better check on things and applied rules fairly and across the board I think the yards would run better.
 
Goldenstar said:
I was a welfare officer so there's not much you can tell me about people getting involved with other peoples horses .
In my time I have been out freezing horses with no rugs on , they where fine .
Starving pony in tiny paddock , Shetland in starvation paddock.
Horses penned up with no grazing , in wood chip turnout during a very wet period .
I could go on and on you do get malicious calls based on people just not liking how others do things.
But on DIY livery yards a big issue is lmo lack of management , if managers and owner kept a better check on things and applied rules fairly and across the board I think the yards would run better.
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I'm fully aware of the malicious calls that welfare officers get, and it is infuriating.

But the fact is, welfare officers wouldn't get any calls whatsoever if it wasn't for a degree of 'interference' from other people.

I am not sure I would agree that YO's should have to lay down rules on rugging etc, as that wouldn't really work very well without an awful lot of extra work put in. The fact is, it is down to the owner's to ensure they are not causing any distress or suffering to their animals.
 
Moomince Pie said:
That's the point - 'they are used to it'. So fgs people, don't pile seven rugs on your horses (not talking about one hw by the way) and allow your horse to regulate properly. Plus, if a horse is stabled at night, they have shelter. Thirdly, the temps on the Welsh Mountains (high up) get far lower than the majority of places where domesticated horses are kept.

There is no problem if the horse is happy, healthy, not at any risk, but the fact is, that vets themselves are starting to show concerns about over rugging due to the increasing incidences of heat exposure.

Shame that more isn't published on this, so that people can actually see how common it is becoming.
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I think you have missed my point :) A domestic horse that is used to shelter and rugging will find it incredibly difficult to adapt to a winter without rugging. Any form of rugging, good or bad, will reduce the ability to self regulate, because the horse has become reliant. Just like us humans find it cold to go outside when we live in heated homes. A 'wild' horse that has known nothing else has the required ability to self regulate. Shelter is all well and good, but on a freezing cold night, standing does nothing to help maintain body warmth. That's why I pointed out that horses will herd together for warmth.
As to the temperature being far lower, again it comes back to adaptation and what the animal is used to. For example, I live in Aus and our winters are mild here compared to the UK. I'd probably die in a UK winter :o But, I can handle a 30-35 degree day, and so can my horses, with relatively little discomfort or disruption to our routine.

I fully acknowledge that over rugging for the weather (which encompasses many factors, such as wind chill, not just temperature) is a serious issue.
 
Lyle said:
I think you have missed my point :) A domestic horse that is used to shelter and rugging will find it incredibly difficult to adapt to a winter without rugging. Any form of rugging, good or bad, will reduce the ability to self regulate, because the horse has become reliant. Just like us humans find it cold to go outside when we live in heated homes. A 'wild' horse that has known nothing else has the required ability to self regulate. Shelter is all well and good, but on a freezing cold night, standing does nothing to help maintain body warmth. That's why I pointed out that horses will herd together for warmth.
As to the temperature being far lower, again it comes back to adaptation and what the animal is used to. For example, I live in Aus and our winters are mild here compared to the UK. I'd probably die in a UK winter :o But, I can handle a 30-35 degree day, and so can my horses, with relatively little discomfort or disruption to our routine.

I fully acknowledge that over rugging for the weather (which encompasses many factors, such as wind chill, not just temperature) is a serious issue.
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But that's the point I am trying to make, it is humans that are piling all of the layers on their horse, because they believe that they are being kind to them, when in actual fact, most horses can survive and thrive quite well enough if they are allowed to be accustomed to regulating their own temp. How can putting seven rugs on one horse possibly be right? Seriously?! If that horse was allowed from early age to accustom to normal temps, then it would thrive perfectly well.
 
Moomince Pie said:
I'm fully aware of the malicious calls that welfare officers get, and it is infuriating.

But the fact is, welfare officers wouldn't get any calls whatsoever if it wasn't for a degree of 'interference' from other people.

I am not sure I would agree that YO's should have to lay down rules on rugging etc, as that wouldn't really work very well without an awful lot of extra work put in. The fact is, it is down to the owner's to ensure they are not causing any distress or suffering to their animals.
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Yup but you can't have it both ways other liverys should not be interfering with other peoples horses if a livery sees a horse sweating in a rug they should tell the owner or YM and the YM should deal with it .
But it is the owner responsibility to care for their horse but the YO and YM also have to exercise a duty of care other liverys should not be poking about in other horses stables .
To many DIY yards are unmanaged .
 
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