why are some horses better doers than others?

If they are kept on the same food it will be the same reason some people put on or lose weight more easily than others, all down to the metabolism :)
 
Actually there have been some fascinating studies done with something called doubly labelled water that showed that the amount of calories burnt is proportional to someone's weight. The more they weigh, the more calories they need. However some people tend to get hungrier than others and obviously some are more active.

Probably the same in horses. You can't really break the laws of physics - energy needs to be burnt or stored.

If it makes you feel any better I'm a 'good doer' myself, which isn't great when you like food and you have to be professionally a healthy weight.
 
Our tb is a very good doer.......tho we think he is a cob in a tb body, he hardly gets cold just needs four slices of hay a night and a small feed that's it. And he is in work 5-6 days a week and very fit.
 
Metabolism. Mainly due to evolution & breeding. If you take native ponies for example, for centuries they've had to exist on very little. So any born with a fast metabolism, i.e. a poor doer, would be unlikely to survive long enough to reproduce & pass that on to future generations. Only the good doers would, which is why most natives are good doers. Whereas tbs were bred by man, purely for speed, so provided it had that skill, a poor doer had every chance of reproducing & passing that on to their young. Stuff like appetite, how active they are, & temperament can also effect it, but isn't the base cause.
And I find the research that calories burnt is proportional to weight laughable. It's true that the heavier you are, the more calories are required to move that weight, but too many other factors means it doesn't work like that in rl. There's also been research done to show the energy needed at rest for muscle vs fat is higher.
 
I also have a tb who is an amazingly good doer. He just loves eating I think is the simple answer! I have him on tight strip grazing to keep his waistline under control so def not just a trait of native types.
 
littlelegs said:
And I find the research that calories burnt is proportional to weight laughable. It's true that the heavier you are, the more calories are required to move that weight, but too many other factors means it doesn't work like that in rl. There's also been research done to show the energy needed at rest for muscle vs fat is higher.
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And yet it's been repeated under controlled conditions and repeatedly peer reviewed. The heavier a horse, or person, is ther more muscle they have and so have to do the work of carrying that around. So heavier horses also tend to burn more during exercise - and good doers are often heavier breeds.

If you watch Bree eating, she doesn't so much eat her food as slaughter it. Whereas the poor doers kinda pick at it (reminds me of watching my slim mother in law eat). I'm the same as Bree - put food in front of me and I inhale it.

I think she knew what she was doing chucking me off - they have put her to work and the yard manager tells me that she is happy because she gets extra food. I'm unable to exercise and bored so I've put 2lb on this week. Kinda poetic justice really.

Paula
 
Yes but controlled conditions aren't rl. So when all the other factors are considered it doesn't have a major impact in everyday situations. Granted if person a & person b are both athletes, with identical lifestyles, down to the smallest movement & % bodyfat, the heavier will possibly require more calories. In rl, the 20 stone couch potatoe requires less than the averagely fit 10 stone person. And heavier doesn't mean more muscle necessarily. I also don't think its all down to appetite either. Both of ours are good doers, but only one is greedy. The other isn't really food motivated at all, & if she was anything but a good doer would be a nightmare to keep weight on. Plus those tests don't explain why lots of slim people can eat vast amounts & stay slim. Metabolism & body shape play a part too. The naturally slim persons metabolism won't go into starvation mode & slow down, because it is used to regular input, therefore food is quickly converted to energy. The perpetual dieters metabolism will slow down to conserve energy into fat stores for times of too little calorie input. I just think real life has too many variables for weight to have any real bearing on calories required. I also eat vast amounts, & yet struggle to keep weight on, friends far heavier than me eat less & in some cases do more but struggle to lose weight.
 
Paula, sorry but that doesn't make sense... I know you're a doctor or something but that is seriously flawed!

The heavier the person is, then the more muscle? Maybe for a body-builder but not your average Fat-Freddie. This is proven by the number of orthopeadic related surgeries in the UK because an obese person's frame is not supported by muscle mass and why Obesity is usually on the top 2 priorities for most PCTs. They cost money!

This is the reason why the NHS do not do BMI calculations anymore for diabetes and CHD, not in my PCT anyway. The results don't mean anything.

If it were true that excess "weight" = more calories burned... why are there so many fat people???

Sorry if I have missed a crucial post somewhere explaining the original theory but it is very misleading.
 
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littlelegs said:
Plus those tests don't explain why lots of slim people can eat vast amounts & stay slim.
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I'm sure I remember seeing a documentary where they studied food intake and exercise rates for a variety of people ranging from obese to skinny. There was one chap who was very skinny but ate loads and said he did no exercise. However, when he was observed under controlled conditions it was seen that although he didn't do formal exercise, he was a non-stop fidget who couldn't sit still for one minute, which was where his calories were being burned up!

Turning that round to horses, my daughter's horse is not the easiest to keep condition on, although he has a fairly good appetite. However, he is the type who doesn't like standing still too long and is often seen wandering around the field whilst the other two are stuffing their faces! Plus is a fidget when confined to the stable for any period of time.
 
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Agree tgm, I have read similar. I do indeed fidget, & if (like now) I sit at a desk, eating high energy foods, I simply fidget more, thus burning it off rather than storing it. Which has more effect on my calorie requirements than my weight.
 
That's only true for part the population and has a lot to do with metabolism. Another part of the population, if they were given high energy foods to consume whilst working at a desk, would simply convert it to fat.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that some native ponies simply have an eating disorder! They cannot stop eating and so the breed gets the reputation of being difficult to manage; while others will pace themselves and are safe to leave on reasonably good grazing and remain slim.

I'm afraid that, whilst I agree with Littlelegs, the show ring is largely to blame as it is the natives that are in "show condition" that have gone on to win and be bred from -- so the trait, which is clearly genetic, gets passed on. Not all native ponies obese!
 
Hadn't really considered that dry rot. I also wonder how much man influenced breeding even 100 or more years ago. Surely it would have made economical sense back then to breed from good doers. Not so much for gentlemans hunters or private carriage horses, but horses kept as part of a business. Whether that's a pit pony or a heavy breed for farming, breeding from a mare who's more likely to feed a foal adequately at little cost, & pass the tendency to be 'cheap to keep' on would be the most sensible choice. Obviously combined with the fact the very poor doers would be unlikely to survive the demands on a working horse back then. Don't have any research to back that up, its just a thought.
 
Deffo agree with the fidget principle! Also, like people, some horses just don't eat that much or want to eat that much. We have had horses that will eat constantly, where as my girl keeps herself fit by walking around all day and no matter how much hay I put in her nets, will only eat what she wants. The only way to get her fatter is to shut her away for 24 hours! I don't fancy riding her after that somehow!! It is always the case (unless medically indicated otherwise) that weight is related to calories vs. excersize, we just don't want to admit it and the companies that sell us food don't want us to know either, they'd loose money!
 
Cos some ponies like to make my life hard fiddling round with muzzles, bare paddocks and electric tape strip grazing them across a paddock that every other pony can be thrown into without resembling a whale after an hour.

My 2 who both live off fresh air and live most the year in muzzle act or eat completely differently to the other unmuzzled ponies when it comes to food especially grass. Other ponies will happily pick, nibble and mooch around looking for decent grass, pacing themselves and enjoying their food. Well my 2...take the muzzle off and it's like a deranged animal who simply gorges. Not just for a little while but my cob especially will gorge until he almost pops. If I was watching a human eat the way he does, it would sicken me:eek: Head down and he grabs it quicker than he's chewing it and will simply stand there until every blade of grass has vanished.


Bleedin' fat chunks...next horse I buy will be a poor doer!:rolleyes:
 
littlelegs said:
Hadn't really considered that dry rot. I also wonder how much man influenced breeding even 100 or more years ago. Surely it would have made economical sense back then to breed from good doers. Not so much for gentlemans hunters or private carriage horses, but horses kept as part of a business. Whether that's a pit pony or a heavy breed for farming, breeding from a mare who's more likely to feed a foal adequately at little cost, & pass the tendency to be 'cheap to keep' on would be the most sensible choice. Obviously combined with the fact the very poor doers would be unlikely to survive the demands on a working horse back then. Don't have any research to back that up, its just a thought.
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Oh, don't get me wrong! We agree absolutely. But I do think the show ring is also partially to blame. I was taken to see some "traditional type" native ponies recently on a Highland estate that were immense! If they were mine, I'd be frightened they'd get on their backs like an over weight pregnant ewe!:D But those in charge were unconcerned and assured me they were not in danger of getting Laminitis, just storing up fat for winter.

I'm inclined to think that the major demand in the past would have been for an economical pack horse to be worked in a string as long as a man could manage, replaced in modern times by heavy lorries, and then a lighter horse or pony, as you've said, for riding. It always comes down to money. The ponies that carry the heaviest loads, were easiest to manage, lived on thin air, etc. would have been the ones they kept and bred from.

I did read somewhere that over 2,000 pack ponies worked out of a moderate sized town (Lincoln?) a couple of hundred years ago. It does makes economic sense. I believe excavations in Perth revealed that most ponies were only about 12HH which again means pack ponies -- or much smaller riders back then! How else do you transport goods across country when there are few roads good enough for wheeled transport? Writers didn't bother themselves writing about such things, unfortunately, so we will probably never know!
 
I think attitude and temperament had a lot to do with it, more so that metabolism.

I have all versions: the big skinny girraffe, the 'average' doer and the fatty good doers.

They obviously have different metabloisms as they are very different types ) but their eating habits are most noticably different.

The skinny isn't really that interested in food. He'll graze until he's fairly full then run about and entertains himself (partly his age but a lot to do with his temperament). If the grass isn't great (i.e older woody stuff) he'll leave it in preference to being hungry and will just stand looking sorry for himself.

The 'average doer' is more interested in grazing but will also stop eating when she's full although unlike the skinny, she'll stand and doze, or groom rather than run about. She also isn't interested in eating if grass is unappitising, although she's less fussy.

The fatty will eat ANYTHING and never stops grazing. He ALWAYS has his head down and will eat the driest, most unappitizing grass regardless. He will stop to groom and snooze occasionally but whilst the others are dozing, he's busy munching away.

The same is repeated with my friends three horses, also a skinny, a fatty and a average.

They are the classic types you'd expect for those attitudes and I think that breeding/type has more to do with their attitude to food than their metabolism of it.
 
I truly hadn't thought of breeding fatties for the show ring, from what you say it certainly sounds a big factor currently. I'm not a showing person so my experience with natives is as the sporty types or good allrounders, rather than produced for showing.
And agree about the history side too, real records would make fascinating reading.
 
Meant to add, I always assumed fat show horses were down to management rather than specifically bred, not sure if I'm glad to have learnt something new or worried about just how wrong that is!
 
My oh never stops eating and is thin. He easily eats twice what I eat. He does a fraction of the exercise I do. He has a chronic back problem and I reckon thats why he is thin.
 
I don't agree with the comment about breeding horses or ponies that are fat especially for the show ring. I think it is because the types of horses that are popular for showing tend to be the sort more prone to weight gain for example natives, cobs and some HW hunters and the level of work needed to keep a horse fit enough for showing is very different from that needed for SJ or eventers.

As others have said it more likely to be genetic and linked to breeding horses suitable for working hard pulling or carrying heavy things at slowish speeds but being cheap to keep. Most natives and cobs are therefore good doers and it going to be hard to out breed this genetic element as there won't be many round that are not good doers to breed from to start off with!

Ideally a wild horse needs to be maybe not just a good doer but a fussy good doer to survive as a horse that will eat absolutely anything is more likely to eat something that might poison them. My pony is a good doer but a fussy one, he is fussy about hay although very greedy for grass, carrots and apples and some bucket food, he is very suspicious of anything processed so does not like quite a lot of horse treats and human food such as bread or even flapjacks which I thought he would love. It was incredibly difficult to get him to eat antibiotics even with apple sauce or black treacle he seemed to be detect it and he does not like a lot of supplements even if i put a tiny bit in he seems to turn his nose up.

Keeping the weight off him is a constant struggle, everything about him including his body shape big body short stocky legs, thick mane and tail, gets very furry in winter, is designed to conserve energy and retain weight.
 
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My horse is a poor doer,he's not interested in feed over the summer. Eats feed when in at night but when out 24/7 over summer all he's wants is to be outside, just ignores any feed offered. I've come to the conclusion that he struggles with weight as he simply doesn't eat as much as everything else on the yard. I've stood & watched all the horses & most never lift they're heads, mine on the other hand mooches about,drinks,nibbles the hedge,stares at the view etc etc! When he does eat he grazes at half the rate of everything else plus he's very slightly parrot mouthed so I think he just can't get as much grass down as everything else. The slightest hint of rain & he just stands shivering & not eating. When stabled he has ad lib forage but eats significantly less than the others at the yard. I've abandoned breakfast when stabled in winter as he just leaves it. I've given up despairing of him & just accept its the way he is!
 
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