Why are you scared of using frozen semen?

[AndyPandy]

I've been working at a stud during the latter half of this week, freezing some semen from some of their stallions... On several occassions during my stay, they've had phone calls from people asking about the stallions. When offered frozen semen, 5 of the 6 callers said "oh no, I don't want frozen semen". Why?

I'm just trying to do a little survey to see where it's bad reputation comes from, please vote on this poll, and post a reply if you like.

 

[LindaW]

I've had frozen come withot the proper paperwork from the continent. (huge well known stud and very expensive)

Huge cost of using the semen compared to chilled, cost me 3 x as much and left with an empty mare, who'd taken 1st time with chilled several times previously.

Not convinced I'd bother again.

 

[Ciss]

I have never had any problems, but then right from the start (10 years ago) I have always used specialist breeding vets. I am sure it is the unwillingness of some equine practices (and certainly of general practices/farm practices if anyone on the list is forced to use them) to become conversant with how to inseminate effectively is the REAL reason why people won't use frozen <sigh>. Some vets will also neither take mares in for boarding for insemination NOR be prepared to revisit every six hours to make sure that they inseminate at the optimum time so the fail rate in these cases could be worryingly high :-(.

 

[irishdraught]

The only problem I have had with frozen semen was after 3 attempts, she did not take and it had to left for the following year. It was found however that the quality was not good and obviously the owner knew this by the amount of straws that were sent.

The following year, rather than my free return to that stallion, I chose another - risky as he had been dead a number of years but she took first time by using only half a dose but by putting it further into her.

In Cumbria, there just is not the choice and I would rather my mares stay at a fantastic (& experienced) vet than travel for hours to stay at a stud I have little knowledge of.

Have gone for frozen again this year on a maiden mare - so ask me again in the autumn!!

I do query the cost to hire & transport the equitainer though - it seems very expensive for what it is. Or is that me being picky?

 

[mike1210]

If frozen ai is done properly the success rates should be reasonably high. We performed frozen ai on almost 50 mares last year that boarded with us. 46 went in foal, the 4 that didnt were due to 2 mares being old and throwing a very bad peristant post mating induced endometritis every time they were inseminated, the other two did conceive but lost the pregnancy about day 35. If the vet takes their time, knows what your doing, make sures the mare is as clean as possible and it should go fine, rush into and not get everything lined up and thats when pregnancy rates drop. Hence send your mare to an experienced studvet who can give her their full attention.

Also ive heard of alot of "AI centres" doing ai, both chilled and frozen, the non-vet was performing these procedures!!!
now im sure there is alot of well versed people out there as far as breeding goes but in my opinion -

its not the doing it ( that can mean anything to do with scanning mares right upto frozen ai etc etc etc) its the what if something goes wrong. #??!!


With regards to who should perform frozen ai, i would send your mare to someone who performs alot this work.

If you look on the BEVA website, there is a list of practices accredited with being recognised for frozen AI.

One comment above was that it can be costly for your mare to board with the vet etc etc etc for frozen AI, yes it can, im sure some vets do charge over the top. but in their defence vets that are experienced in and do alot of stud medicine will do a good job and it can be very labour intensive.

There is some vets performing frozen ai at home for your mare, personally i am against this as im sure pregnancy rates will drop unless all the mares done this way are the "ideal breeder" - i.e. young to middle age good condition mare who has had a couple of foals. Unfortunately unless everything runs exactly to plan, costs could spiral out of control.

Another point is that under these schemes the mare is inseminated twice with frozen semen, personally i wouldnt do this, as a mare is more likely to react and hence pool fluid to thawed frozen semen that anything, so using one small dose as the right time is ideal, to use two doses because the mare was not able to be watched meticulously means that you will be inflamming the uterine wall, only to throw another load on to inflammed endometrium later on this re-irritates an already potentially inflammed mucosa.

Im not sure how much people have paid for frozen ai cycles before, but we pay 250 for 1st cycle, 200 for subsequent - thats all in, everything - scans, drugs the lot! Does that sound about right?

 

[AJBliss]

I think there are several studies that have been conducted showing that insemination with two half-doses does not increase the occurrence of endometritis over insemination with one full dose. Also, isn't it the spermatozoa that are the major cause of the inflammation? If you are subjecting a mare to the same total number of sperm cells (say, one half at 2100hrs, and then again at 0300hrs), will this make a difference when any resultant fluid the mare can't chuck out herself is cleaned up a bit later on? Mares on frozen semen do require close monitoring, especially if they aren't the "ideal candidate," and some stallions just don't freeze well. Meanwhile, just to complicate things, some other stallions have better frozen than chilled--say, if one stallion commonly has a bit of urine in his ejaculate, then this would likely cause a problem in chilled semen which is stored for a while, whereas it would be removed during processing for freezing.

Anyways ... agreed that insemination with frozen-thawed at home would be more difficult (and probably cost the same in the long run) to do properly than with a specialist vet. My overall impression of frozen semen is that it's generally very effective, but requires close management, and will continue thusly until someone figures out how to make the sperm cells last as long in the mare as fresh or chilled semen.

Am I making any big errors in my conclusions?

 

[Winstonblue]

I really couldnt agree more with you. I wuld rather use frozen than chilled and I think that more and more breeders will chose this method. You dont have to worry when the mare comes into season, you can order early and keep it on tap until you need it. I think that the problem is many people who have used frozen in the past have not used it correctly and therefore giving frozen a poor rate.
I would and will continue to send my mares to the vet to inseminate with frozen as timing is the key.
The area that should be mentioned is the quality of the frozen and if you do use frozen make sure it comes from an approved source with health papers otherwise DEFRA will destroy it.

 

[_jetset_]

My mare took with frozen on her first season with the first straw and even threw up twins

I would not be worried about using it again on her in the future, in fact, I would probably prefer it knowing how well she took this time

 

[Irishcobs]

We've had one done last year with frozen, the first lot was dead on arrival and the second lot wasn't very good but mare did take.
My vets don't like using it, they say it is harder to use because of the time frame from defrosting it and the mobility rate is lower. I'm not sure if this is right but that is what they say.

 

[tigers_eye]

I am not scared of it, on the contrary think it's a very good idea, as long as a stallion owner/agent is upfront about the quality of their stallion's frozen stuff. Last year I recounted my mare's dealings with frozen and it was your own comments that led me to believe my vets hadn't done the best job possible. After all, frozen will only be as good as the hands dealing with it won't it? She is empty at the moment, but I will be trying with frozen again this year.

 

[tigers_eye]

Do you use KLY for breeding at work Irishcobs?

 

[Irishcobs]

Yes. Scary woman but she knows her stuff.

 

[Petethehunt]

I would never use frozen from Europe again. Our mare was inseminated with frozen, the mare got in-foal, but DNA proved the foal was not by the sire we paid for?????

I am not alone.

 

[volatis]

i couldn't do your poll as I haven't used frozen yet but am not anti it, and will probably be using it this year on one mare.

 

[LindaW]

Hmm, I did use a vet who specialised in using frozen semen, boarded the mare with them too, she stayed for 2 tries, then I brought her home as the cost was spiralling

 

[S_N]

The main reasons I am wary of it, are a) I don't know enough about it and b) the expense!

 

[christine48]

There are various reasons;
age of mare, skill of vet, cost.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Not afraid to use it

 

[kerilli]

i've been told that the conception rates are much lower with frozen. i think Tullis Matson was one of those who told me that... would have been about 4 years ago though so maybe the percentages have improved now?
i'd use it happily if i was sure the stallion in question's semen stood up well to freezing, i've also been told that some stallions' don't...

 

[southsidestud]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never use frozen from Europe again. Our mare was inseminated with frozen, the mare got in-foal, but DNA proved the foal was not by the sire we paid for?????

I am not alone.

[/ QUOTE ]thats my Biggest fear!!! alone with paying for semen and ending up with nothing at the end of it

 

[Anastasia]

I have used frozen semen off my own stallions and other stallions with great success, sometimes better than natural or chilled. All the mares I have used with frozen have taken on first attempt. Last year I tried with one mare who conceived the year before with frozen the first time round, and when using chilled twice we never succeeded. We then got in some frozen and she took, although re-absorbed later on.

If you are breeding your mare you have no guarantees whether with natural, chilled or frozen.

I know a lot of vets who prefer to use frozen because it means that there are no delays when they want to inseminate the mare, because the frozen is available there and then.

I also have a friend who this year is using nothing but frozen semen because previously she used chilled and thanks to courier and transport problems she had MAJOR delays getting her mares in foal and additional expenses, i.e. her mare was ovulating over the weekend, so she had to pay something like £140+VAT to get the semen shipped at a weekend. So this year she already has her frozen purchased and ready waiting for the mares.

Our stallion has frozen semen with Tullis and it has to be a minimum standard, and the reason for this is because it means that the semen cannot be automatically faulted if a mare does not take (its very easy for the semen to be blamed when a lot of the time it can also be down to the mare). Tullis is very strict and the slightest deviation on the quality when some of the test doses are thawed means that it wont be sent out to mare owners or vets.

 

[burtie]

I bred my first(and only) foal using frozen as the stallion was in America at the time I didn't have much choice. A local stud sorted it all for me and she took second attempt. She was super fit and slim (dropped off on her way back from the blue chip finals!!)when she went and I do wonder if perhaps this may be partially why she didn't take first time.

Personally I would use frozen over chilled (and transported) as when I tried this method the deliveries where both very late and the mare did not take. At least with frozen although timing has to be precise you have the stuff there and ready.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Certainly not scared of it, BUT ....

My vet not happy doing frozen 'at home' though he's happy to do chilled.
I'd be happy to send mares to Twemlows, but prefer to have mares with foals at foot stay home.
I have my own stallion so it's only his daughters that I need to AI - and have found suitable stallions available by chilled.

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
Also ive heard of alot of "AI centres" doing ai, both chilled and frozen, the non-vet was performing these procedures!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason why an AI technician cannot work in conjunction with a vet when using frozen semen.

[ QUOTE ]
If you look on the BEVA website, there is a list of practices accredited with being recognised for frozen AI.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have serious issues with the BEVA system for recognition of AI-savvy vets. I've had vets on this list call me and ask for advice because they've had trouble with chilled semen insemintations - basic stuff that a qualified vet should not be getting wrong!

[ QUOTE ]
One comment above was that it can be costly for your mare to board with the vet etc etc etc for frozen AI, yes it can, im sure some vets do charge over the top. but in their defence vets that are experienced in and do alot of stud medicine will do a good job and it can be very labour intensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

The old-school methods of frozen AI are extremely labour intensive. There are modern methods which can be used to reduce labour without reducing pregnancy rates, which should in turn reduce costs.

[ QUOTE ]
There is some vets performing frozen ai at home for your mare, personally i am against this as im sure pregnancy rates will drop unless all the mares done this way are the "ideal breeder"...

[/ QUOTE ]

Every mare should be treated as an individual, but again, the modern methods (which I will post details of shortly), reduce the need for mares to stay away, and can be successfully AI'd with frozen-thawed semen at home.

[ QUOTE ]
Another point is that under these schemes the mare is inseminated twice with frozen semen, personally i wouldnt do this, as a mare is more likely to react and hence pool fluid to thawed frozen semen that anything, so using one small dose as the right time is ideal, to use two doses because the mare was not able to be watched meticulously means that you will be inflamming the uterine wall, only to throw another load on to inflammed endometrium later on this re-irritates an already potentially inflammed mucosa.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with this I'm afraid. Someone else posted a good argument against it, but it's just not the case. If you've got a mare that has fluid-pooling problems, then judicious use of oxytocin (and possibly wash-outs as required) will eliminate almost all uterine-fluid-related problems.

The best current protocols for frozen-thawed insemination require 2 inseminations, and have excellent success rates.

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
My vets don't like using it, they say it is harder to use because of the time frame from defrosting it and the mobility rate is lower. I'm not sure if this is right but that is what they say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't really understand this... when you need it, you defrost it according to instructions (or 45 secs at 37 degrees), and stick it in! Couldn't be simpler really

Also, it's worth noting that motility is not the be all and end all. There is currently no one way of predicting the fertility of frozen semen. You can have high motility frozen-thawed semen which is totally infertile, and low motility frozen-thawed semen which is extremely fertile. It is a very basic indicator, but shouldn't be seen as the gold standard.

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never use frozen from Europe again. Our mare was inseminated with frozen, the mare got in-foal, but DNA proved the foal was not by the sire we paid for?????

I am not alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that's a worrying thing that can happen. But it could happen with chilled or frozen semen. Frozen semen was not the reason for the problem occuring here - it was something dodgy going on at the stud. Don't blame the fact that it was frozen semen

 

[mike1210]

Quote: I have to disagree with this I'm afraid. Someone else posted a good argument against it, but it's just not the case. If you've got a mare that has fluid-pooling problems, then judicious use of oxytocin (and possibly wash-outs as required) will eliminate almost all uterine-fluid-related problems.

The best current protocols for frozen-thawed insemination require 2 inseminations, and have excellent success rates.

---

The mare doesnt have to pool fluid. You say the best ( THE BEST???) protocol has 2 inseminations. Surely 1 insemination would be best. If you can get away with 1 im sure thats better.

I think its another case of you mistaking what im saying. Alot of mares that we frozen AI, will be older mares that have finished a long competition career and are now being lined up to be bred to a stallion who happens to be away competing and hence only frozen is available. Now older maiden mares (not to say all the mares we frozen ai are in this category!!!!) are a harder category of mare to get in foal. As im sure youll agree post-mating uterine reactions are more common with frozen-thawed semen, and IT IS IN THIS CLASS OF MARE WHERE IT BECOMES MORE OF AN ISSUE, these mares are more likley to have more of a reaction - the endometrium becomes inflammed, and in our experience using two half doses results in a higher count in polymorphonuclear leukocytes on endometrial smears that are taken the day following insemination before the mares uterus in washedout. . Now we conducted a small survey of our mares with our studvet to demonstrate this, i.e. one insemination timed to as the follicle is ovulating versus two insemination done around the time. This was shown by the smears we took off 45 mares that were evenly split between one vs two inseminations.

So, im not saying that good pregnancy rates will not be achieved because the vast majority of mares will not kick up enough of a reaction, im just saying chances are reduced over one that is timed perfectly.


You remove the inciting cause of the inflammation, so it wont get any worse but how long with it take for the uterine wall to return to normal - obviously an important issue because you only have 5 days before the potential conceptus hits the uterus and any alterations to the uterine environment can risk the conceptus from surviving.

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
You say the best ( THE BEST???) protocol has 2 inseminations. Surely 1 insemination would be best. If you can get away with 1 im sure thats better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps one insemination would be ideal, but in this case, the "best" protocol is one that has been shown to work AS WELL AS a labour-intensive, single insemination protocol, that does not require the same number of palpations/scans.

[ QUOTE ]
As im sure youll agree post-mating uterine reactions are more common with frozen-thawed semen, and IT IS IN THIS CLASS OF MARE WHERE IT BECOMES MORE OF AN ISSUE, these mares are more likley to have more of a reaction - the endometrium becomes inflammed, and in our experience using two half doses results in a higher count in polymorphonuclear leukocytes on endometrial smears that are taken the day following insemination before the mares uterus in washedout. . Now we conducted a small survey of our mares with our studvet to demonstrate this, i.e. one insemination timed to as the follicle is ovulating versus two insemination done around the time. This was shown by the smears we took off 45 mares that were evenly split between one vs two inseminations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that older mares are more likely to have fluid-related problems, but in the majority of cases, these can be controlled with oxytocin. The inflammation itself has a positive effect on pregnancy (as long as it clears naturally - if not, then treatment may be required). I haven't seen any published evidence to show that 2 inseminations cause anything other than mild endometrial inflammation (<5% neutrophils). Also, what volume and concentration of sperm cells were you inseminating? And were you inseminating into the body of the uterus, or deeper/closer to the papilla?

[ QUOTE ]
...im just saying chances are reduced over one that is timed perfectly

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the italian research which developed the double insemination protocol which I will post here, showed no decrease in pregnancy rates over a large number of mares (including "older" and "problem" mares).

 

[volatis]

I agree with what you say about the bEVA list of approved centres. One close to us was so out of date that I wouldn't have used them if they were the last practise on earth (and it was their AI expert vet) I spoke to. Honestly he didnt have a clue

 

[Gingernags]

We've only bred three times and always used natural covering, but from the information AP etc have posted on here I think if I bred my mare again I'd now be happy going the AI route and would have no worries over frozen.

Our vets, I've found out, now do an AI package and they are a good practice, so I'd be happy going that route.

That said this is intended to be the last foal so barring anything horrible happening...