why buy branded feed?

[khalswitz]

Difference between ponies and horses though. My sister's pony never had anything other than grass or hay, and that was up until last year! However if any of my TBs were fed only that they'd have wasted away in winter... plus my horses are in a lot harder work than the ponies ever were. I think it's very generalised to say everyone overfeeds their horses, and then use ponies as an example - two very different things.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Difference between ponies and horses though. My sister's pony never had anything other than grass or hay, and that was up until last year! However if any of my TBs were fed only that they'd have wasted away in winter... plus my horses are in a lot harder work than the ponies ever were. I think it's very generalised to say everyone overfeeds their horses, and then use ponies as an example - two very different things.

Well, ok, point taken but none of the 100+ ponies or horses on my yard ever got lami or had metabolic issues and they were all fed sugar beet, some got oats and all got the occasional bran mash (gasp!). And that included eveything from riding school ponies to hard-working hunters and graded showjumpers.

You don't have to look very far these days to see obese horses and ponies and just about everyone I know has a pony or horse with lami. And that's definitely not how it was 20 years ago. So generally, yes, I do think most (not all!) people overfeed (and under exercise) their horses/ponies.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

I think much of it depends what you are feeding for and why, people are driven to experiment through problems or desperation normally and if they find a solution that works they cling to it!

CS is EPSM, idle, ulcery. Having tried various *ulcer friendly* fibre based diets that made him dull and irritable, I gave up and moved to a cereal based (havens slobbermash) energy diet......he's round, shiney, bouncy and has a happy tum despite on paper the diet being all wrong.
I possibly could mix straights myself to mimic the havens, but not sure i dare change it ?! If anyone can suggest the best ratio/ ingredients i would think about trying it, but that degree of nutrition is a bit beyond me! He gets winergy high energy as a chaff ( again, shouldn't work but does) the main ingredient of which I believe is alfalfa and I'm not aware of a local own brand pure alfalfa chaff (leics/notts) so re mixing that myself is out I think ?

He gets linseed but other than a nice coat and some weight gain, it doesn't help his ulcers or energy! Open to ideas but perhaps many are like me and are driven to stick with the one commercial feed they find makes a big diff?

 

[PolarSkye]

Open to ideas but perhaps many are like me and are driven to stick with the one commercial feed they find makes a big diff?

This would describe me. FWIW, Kal gets ERS Pellets, an unmolassed chaff, Blue Chip Original and micronised linseed . . . and, in the winter, Speedibeet. Why? Because it works for us. Molasses makes him lose the plot, the high oil content in the ERS Pellets and the linseed give him condition and slow-release energy without fizz, and Blue Chip is as good a balancer as I have found and doesn't send him round the twist. For a horse prone to ulcers, who can't tolerate sugar, and is difficult to keep condition on in the winter, why would I take the risk of changing what works and risking a white bag feed?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking white bag feeds . . . and to those of you who feed them, I say more power to you . . . but having found something that works for my boy - and having learnt the hard way - I prefer to stick with keeps him happy, healthy and sane.

P

 

[Hedwards]

but having found something that works for my boy - and having learnt the hard way - I prefer to stick with keeps him happy, healthy and sane.
P

This ^^ (I'm not stalking you PS honest!)

I've been to hell and back getting my geldings diet right (and its only been tiny tweaks) to deal with his ulcers etc. and now i know what works, the only way i'd change it would be if i couldnt get hold of what i feed now! (Dengie Hi-Fi unmollassed, ERS pellets (if he's in enough work to require them), Boswellia, Lifeforce, and now its getting colder he'll go back onto Micronised linseed) he's out 24/7 and we'll start to add hay to the fields in the next few weeks.

 

[PolarSkye]

This ^^ (I'm not stalking you PS honest!)

Ha ha ha! .

P

 

[Tnavas]

My pony never used to get any feed at all in the summer and only got chaff in the winter. He's an EMS case most certainly not caused by commercial feeds. Even now he only gets chaff (getting harder and harder to buy unmollassed stuff round here which pees me off!) and speedibeet in the winter. I can't even buy normal beet at my local 'large' feed merchant.

Have you owned this pony since the day it was born? If not then the damage could already have been done before you got it.

Buddy'sMum - sounds like you and I must have worked at the same yard!!

My riding school horses - all TB's used to winter on grass, hay twice daily and a feed when they worked. They were not clipped and wore one wool lined canvas cover. Though winters in Canterbury (NZ) are not as prolonged or severe it does snow well at times. During snowy periods hay was increased. They all wintered well.

One of the additional things we fed the school ponies in the UK was Horlicks - we'ed get drums of seconds and they'd get a standard scoop in each feed. That has a lot of sugar in it yet we had no problem with Lami. EVER!

I will repeat that the majority of horses and ponies are seriously overfed and owners really need to stop being brainwashed by the feed companies.

Learn about feeding straights - it's how us oldies learnt - we read our Pony Club manual, asked, listened and experimented. It is not rocket science and reading and asking people who actually feed straights - not the feed merchant as he will want to make money from you also helped.

 

[khalswitz]

Learn about feeding straights - it's how us oldies learnt - we read our Pony Club manual, asked, listened and experimented. It is not rocket science and reading and asking people who actually feed straights - not the feed merchant as he will want to make money from you also helped.

Like I said, it doesn't always work. I was trained by an old school horsewoman as well and I fed straights (including the odd bran mash) up until my current horse - but it just doesn't work for him. EPSM horse, so needs low sugar, low starch and high fat and fibre, but won't touch oil in his feed, or micronised linseed, and won't eat enough beet for his energy requirements (poor doing eventer in training!). Can't have cereals of any kind as too high starch. As someone who always fed straights I was shocked I couldn't find a way round this - but on Alfa-A Oil and ERS Pellets with a stud balancer he is great, and has put on around 60kg since I took him off the straights which weren't working for him - finally looking and working well.

Overfeeding and using branded feeds are not the same thing at all. Plenty of people use branded feeds and don't feed to manufacturers recommendations, and plenty of people find themselves struggling to keep condition with a branded feed let alone having overweight, ems/cushings horses on their hands.

As far as claiming branded feeds cause things like EMS - what do you seriously think is in them? Most mixes and/or cubes consist of the same basic raw ingredients that you would feed as straights!!! The difference is the feed company balances the vits/mins and adds extra vits and proteins to the feed so that you don't need anything additional - and adds a hefty price tag for the convenience. You sound like you think there's something magic in branded feeds that gives horses metabolic problems... which makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist I'll be honest.

 

[PolarSkye]

Overfeeding and using branded feeds are not the same thing at all.

Amen.

P

 

[Tnavas]

As far as claiming branded feeds cause things like EMS - what do you seriously think is in them? Most mixes and/or cubes consist of the same basic raw ingredients that you would feed as straights!!! The difference is the feed company balances the vits/mins and adds extra vits and proteins to the feed so that you don't need anything additional - and adds a hefty price tag for the convenience. You sound like you think there's something magic in branded feeds that gives horses metabolic problems... which makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist I'll be honest.

I suggest that you go and seriously read the labels on your horses feeds and also others

Soy for one thing - is highly poisonous until it has been through several chemical processes to remove the toxins - your horse would not eat this naturally. Soy is also known very well to cause metabolic problems in humans and since its inclusion in composite feeds we've started to get metabolic problems in horses that never existed in the past.

Bran is one of the main ingredients of many composite feeds as it is cheap, bulks up the food and helps glue it together - Bran/Broll/Pollard/Mill Run is WHEAT and NO ONE in their right mind feeds wheat to horses, it overloads the kidneys - is fast energy and hypes the life out of horses.

Peanut hulls? Peas and Beans?

Straights are Oats, Barley, Linseed, Sunflower seeds, Chaff and Sugarbeet! Maize for racehorses. I've been feeding for over 40 years to 100's of horses and apart from feeding my current Broodmare a balancer have never fed composite feeds.

The high incidence of laminitis tells us very clearly that we are feeding badly! To date I have never had one of mine, either owned by me or in my care get laminitis. I've worked with horses at all levels, Riding School, Olympic level horses, TB yearlings, racehorses, pleasure horses and little fat ponies. While they are in my care not a scrap of processed feed passes their lips.

Supplements are given in the form of a mineral block in the paddock.

I remember what it was like before the processed feeds came into existence! And if you really believe that the feed companies research the feeds for our common or garden horses and ponies then you are sadly mistaken - they just adapt the feeds they researched for racehorses which is where the money lies.

Horse owners are suckers for advertising hype. For a horse that is failing to thrive on quality correctly proportioned straights I'd look for low grade pain issues. I had one who's neck was out and he wasn't happy grazing or feeding from the ground - several chiro treatments later and feeding from chest height I had a horse looking like a broodmare in foal on minimal food.

Here in NZ we currently have very minimal metabolic problems - because we are only in the first decade of highly processed horse feeds.

 

[khalswitz]

I suggest that you go and seriously read the labels on your horses feeds and also others

Soy for one thing - is highly poisonous until it has been through several chemical processes to remove the toxins - your horse would not eat this naturally. Soy is also known very well to cause metabolic problems in humans and since its inclusion in composite feeds we've started to get metabolic problems in horses that never existed in the past.

Bran is one of the main ingredients of many composite feeds as it is cheap, bulks up the food and helps glue it together - Bran/Broll/Pollard/Mill Run is WHEAT and NO ONE in their right mind feeds wheat to horses, it overloads the kidneys - is fast energy and hypes the life out of horses.

Peanut hulls? Peas and Beans?

Straights are Oats, Barley, Linseed, Sunflower seeds, Chaff and Sugarbeet! Maize for racehorses. I've been feeding for over 40 years to 100's of horses and apart from feeding my current Broodmare a balancer have never fed composite feeds.

The high incidence of laminitis tells us very clearly that we are feeding badly! To date I have never had one of mine, either owned by me or in my care get laminitis. I've worked with horses at all levels, Riding School, Olympic level horses, TB yearlings, racehorses, pleasure horses and little fat ponies. While they are in my care not a scrap of processed feed passes their lips.

Supplements are given in the form of a mineral block in the paddock.

I remember what it was like before the processed feeds came into existence! And if you really believe that the feed companies research the feeds for our common or garden horses and ponies then you are sadly mistaken - they just adapt the feeds they researched for racehorses which is where the money lies.

Horse owners are suckers for advertising hype. For a horse that is failing to thrive on quality correctly proportioned straights I'd look for low grade pain issues. I had one who's neck was out and he wasn't happy grazing or feeding from the ground - several chiro treatments later and feeding from chest height I had a horse looking like a broodmare in foal on minimal food.

Here in NZ we currently have very minimal metabolic problems - because we are only in the first decade of highly processed horse feeds.

I can assure you I read the labels very carefully - being an equine nutrition student (studying my Masters at the Dick Vet) and having a horse with a problem that needs dietary management I read the labels!!

Bran has gone very out of fashion with certainly UK feed companies - not many use bran as a component any more, mostly due to the way it is milled these days and has next to no nutritional value. Certainly none of my feeds contain it. Also feeding bran is not the same as feeding wheat - in the old days, bran was the fibrous part of the husk of wheat, and was lower in starch and higher in fibre. Nowadays, it's mainly sawdust - certainly not high energy rocket fuel like pure wheat.

With regards to soy - arguing a horse wouldn't eat it naturally is stupid, a horse wouldn't eat oats, barley, linseed or maize 'naturally' so that isn't relevant. And with regards to soy protein, 'metabolic' effects have only been noted in the human industry in women who over-consume soy protein, and it affects hormonal levels. Soy protein is, as far as nutritionists know, the closest match to equine amino acid requirements that is viable for practical use in horses (see Amy King, PhD, of Lexington Kentucky, and Sarah Ralston of the Rutgers University Equine Science Center). Because horses have a totally different digestive system scientists believe the effects of soy aren't reproducible in horses as from humans - and certainly not in reasonable feed quantities.

Another concern regarding soy is the GM component, however UK feed companies are regulated in this so it's again a non-starter, thats a US problem. The two toxic enzymes in raw soybeans are urease and lipoxidase, both of which are destroyed on roasting the beans, which is standard process for soy protein manufacture. Horses can be allergic to soy, but they can also be allergic to barley...

Peanut hulls I'd agree with you on as being pointless in a feed, but I have never found this in any of the big brand processed feeds I've used. Peanut oil, yes, but never the hulls.

Peas I don't know why you have a problem with, they contain an average of 23% crude protein and a digestible energy content similar to barley. Nothing in them to worry about, it's just an alternative.

Saying that increased laminitis proves bad feeding is unfounded - you aren't accounting for the main part of the horse's diet - grass and hay. How can we know that changes in fertilisers, climate changes resulting in richer, sugarier forage, changes to soil composition resulting in unbalanced rations within forage aren't doing the same thing? It's speculative, not evidential.

I've never had one of mine get laminitis, yet my friend who feeds straights (and breeds her own stock before you query that too) has half a dozen laminitic prone ponies. In MY experience, that would prove the opposite. However I'm not arguing that, just that blaming processed feed is illogical and unfounded.

OVERFEEDING, yes, that could cause obesity which in turn could cause laminitis. Owners feeding more hard feed in general than 20 years ago? Sure, would make sense as an explanatory theory. But blaming processed feed doesn't.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Overfeeding and using branded feeds are not the same thing at all. Plenty of people use branded feeds and don't feed to manufacturers recommendations, and plenty of people find themselves struggling to keep condition with a branded feed let alone having overweight, ems/cushings horses on their hands.

By 'overfeeding' I didn't just mean feeding too much on terms of quantity but feeding things the horse or pony doesn't need. And a quick look at the ingredients of most branded feeds tells me that my horses don't need half of what's in that feed!

As far as claiming branded feeds cause things like EMS - what do you seriously think is in them? Most mixes and/or cubes consist of the same basic raw ingredients that you would feed as straights!!! The difference is the feed company balances the vits/mins and adds extra vits and proteins to the feed so that you don't need anything additional - and adds a hefty price tag for the convenience. You sound like you think there's something magic in branded feeds that gives horses metabolic problems... which makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist I'll be honest.

Well, I'm old enough to remember the days when feeding straights was the norm, before the mass use of branded feeds (not to mention supplements) and we just didn't have all these metabolic issues and a lami epidemic. So personally I absolutely believe there's a link.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Another concern regarding soy is the GM component, however UK feed companies are regulated in this so it's again a non-starter, thats a US problem.

How so? Imported GM soy is allowed to be used in animal feeds in the UK. I know of a few horse feed companies who use GM soy.

 

[Tnavas]

I can assure you I read the labels very carefully - being an equine nutrition student (studying my Masters at the Dick Vet) and having a horse with a problem that needs dietary management I read the labels!!

Bran has gone very out of fashion with certainly UK feed companies - not many use bran as a component any more, mostly due to the way it is milled these days and has next to no nutritional value.

I suggest that you do some reading otherwise you won't pass your exams! I googled a few popular feed companies - and guess what virtually all the products contained BRAN!
Red Mills - Cool 'n' Cooked - Wheat Flakes (steam-cooked), Wheatfeed
Dengie Hi Fi Balancer - wheat
Dengie - Alfa A Balancer - wheat
Dodson & Horrell - don't let you know what their product contains
Baileys No 2 - Micronised Wheat
Baileys No 1 - Carefully micronised wheat
Virtually ALL the BAileys range contain Wheat

Certainly none of my feeds contain it. Also feeding bran is not the same as feeding wheat - in the old days, bran was the fibrous part of the husk of wheat, and was lower in starch and higher in fibre. Nowadays, it's mainly sawdust - certainly not high energy rocket fuel like pure wheat.

I remember bran flakes being large and containing flour - it is used to bulk up the mass and make it stick together. We never fed wheat as an energy source but as a fibre source and even in the 60's it was well known to be a problem food No-one in their right mind feeds a horse wheat in any form - the flour it contains makes horses extrememly fizzy, and damages kidneys


With regards to soy - arguing a horse wouldn't eat it naturally is stupid, a horse wouldn't eat oats, barley, linseed or maize 'naturally' so that isn't relevant.

Yes they would eat it oats and barley naturally - it's not toxic - if it were planted in their paddock they would chose it to eat

And with regards to soy protein, 'metabolic' effects have only been noted in the human industry in women who over-consume soy protein, and it affects hormonal levels.

You need to go and do some more research my dear! It is responsible for many problems
Have a visit to this site
http://www.rede-verde.org/index.php...-the-planet&catid=3:healthy-lifestyle&lang=en

Soy protein is, as far as nutritionists know, the closest match to equine amino acid requirements that is viable for practical use in horses (see Amy King, PhD, of Lexington Kentucky, and Sarah Ralston of the Rutgers University Equine Science Center). Because horses have a totally different digestive system scientists believe the effects of soy aren't reproducible in horses as from humans - and certainly not in reasonable feed quantities.

So explain the very high incidence of equine metabolic problems we are now facing? WHICH DID NOT EXIST 20 OR SO YEARS AGO, what has changed so much in a horses diet these days? Answer Commercially prepared foods! Recently Soy husks have made their way into the horses feed - here in NZ it is sold as Maxi Soy - it's cheap and was probably just dumped before the manufacturers found they could dump it on the horse owners. SOY products have become cheaper over the past decade when SOY consumption by humans reduced

Another concern regarding soy is the GM component, however UK feed companies are regulated in this so it's again a non-starter, thats a US problem. The two toxic enzymes in raw soybeans are urease and lipoxidase, both of which are destroyed on roasting the beans, which is standard process for soy protein manufacture. Horses can be allergic to soy, but they can also be allergic to barley...
You think they are roasted? Try being treated with chemicals - Hexane or other volatile, petroleum-based solvents

GM doesn't really worry me - just means we use less pesticides WHICH DO AFFECT the food. Do you grow flowers in your garden? Most of them have been genetically modified by gardeners and bees for centuries!

Peanut hulls I'd agree with you on as being pointless in a feed, but I have never found this in any of the big brand processed feeds I've used. Peanut oil, yes, but never the hulls.
They are used as a form of a cheap bulking component - often found in American horse feeds

Peas I don't know why you have a problem with, they contain an average of 23% crude protein and a digestible energy content similar to barley. Nothing in them to worry about, it's just an alternative. [ I don't have much of a problem with peas BUT the majority of horses don't require that level of protein - 8 - 10 % in a mature horse and along with the additioni of Lysine the available protein is increased. Excess just gets peed out!

Saying that increased laminitis proves bad feeding is unfounded - you aren't accounting for the main part of the horse's diet - grass and hay.
The main cause of ANY laminitis is poor management - overfed and underworked

How can we know that changes in fertilisers, climate changes resulting in richer, sugarier forage, changes to soil composition resulting in unbalanced rations within forage aren't doing the same thing? It's speculative, not evidential.

I currently live in New Zealand - pasture is mainly Rye Grass and Clover, often well fertilised with a prolonged spring growth - you can see the stuff growing and the majority of our horses live out - AND we don't have a high incidence of laminitis, ocaissionly in ponies but rarely in horses

I've never had one of mine get laminitis, yet my friend who feeds straights (and breeds her own stock before you query that too) has half a dozen laminitic prone ponies.
She obviously overfeeds them!

In MY experience, that would prove the opposite. However I'm not arguing that, just that blaming processed feed is illogical and unfounded.
No it's not - its the result of KNOWING what horses were like before processed feeds were available and what I see happening now. When I was a child ponies were rarely ever fed anything - now I listen to my Pony Club kids tell me what they are feeding and it's horrific.

OVERFEEDING, yes, that could cause obesity which in turn could cause laminitis. Not could but DOES often cause laminitis

Owners feeding more hard feed in general than 20 years ago? Sure, would make sense as an explanatory theory. But blaming processed feed doesn't.

Really?!!! - but what are people feeding but processed feeds and I've explained to you that in the 40+ years I have owned/worked with and fed 100's of horses and ponies STRAIGHTS that I have NEVER had a case of laminitis or Insulin resistance - and I am talking yards with over 100 horses/ponies living in them

Start researching more in depth and question what you are being taught!

 

[cptrayes]

The explosion in laminitis and IR in the UK is easily explained by two things, neither of which directly concern commercial feeds.

1. People are feeding too much of all kinds of food and exercising less than we used to.

2. Farmers with rich ryegrass grazing for dairy cows were given financial incentives to convert to livery yards. That grazing is like poison to a lot of horses.

 

[Tnavas]

The explosion in laminitis and IR in the UK is easily explained by two things, neither of which directly concern commercial feeds.

1. People are feeding too much of all kinds of food and exercising less than we used to.

2. Farmers with rich ryegrass grazing for dairy cows were given financial incentives to convert to livery yards. That grazing is like poison to a lot of horses.

We keep the majority of NZ horses on dairy rich grass - rye grass and clover are still the main seed mix. Some people are now sowing for horses alone but we don't have too much of a problem. Just at this time of year with Grass Tetany which is dealt with easily by supplementing with magnesium.

My school grazing was rye grass and clover, fertilised twice a year and irrigated throughout summer - Everyone bar a few of the fatties lived on the main grazing - the fatties lived in the arena paddocks with the grass kept short so that they could eat adlib but get only small amounts of food.

My current grazing cross grazes with beef cattle, its fertilised regularly - we have no problem!

Overfeeding and under exercising is the biggest problem - and the commercial feeds are to blame for the over feeding - horse and pony owners are made to feel that they HAVE to feed their equines.

More people feed hard feed than used to!

 

[doriangrey]

We keep the majority of NZ horses on dairy rich grass - rye grass and clover are still the main seed mix. Some people are now sowing for horses alone but we don't have too much of a problem. Just at this time of year with Grass Tetany which is dealt with easily by supplementing with magnesium.

My school grazing was rye grass and clover, fertilised twice a year and irrigated throughout summer - Everyone bar a few of the fatties lived on the main grazing - the fatties lived in the arena paddocks with the grass kept short so that they could eat adlib but get only small amounts of food.

My current grazing cross grazes with beef cattle, its fertilised regularly - we have no problem!

Overfeeding and under exercising is the biggest problem - and the commercial feeds are to blame for the over feeding - horse and pony owners are made to feel that they HAVE to feed their equines.

More people feed hard feed than used to!

I have to say you make a very compelling argument. This might not be relevant, but I keep hens (horses too!), and I refuse to feed layers pellets. Just looking at the ingredients on the bag puts me off and yet my hens pop eggs out like mad, yet I have been told that for maximum egg production you must feed layers pellets - I know personally that's nonsense. I don't know what the answer is but I kind of see where you are coming from. Nowadays it's like convenience food for everything - even kids. I don't have working horses at the moment (just a retiree and a youngster) and I do understand that every animal is different but every other thread seems to be about colic/laminitis/ulcers - I feel so sorry for any horse/horse owner that goes through this, it's absolutely heart breaking reading about it especially as people want to do the very best by their horses. It does seem that these conditions have increased with the introduction of commercial feeds but I don't know enough to make a proper argument. Both of mine have mostly forage (including locally grown haylage), beet pulp, whole linseed, oil and salt (I stopped buying a balancer). They occasionally get carrots and while we had a surfeit of apples they would get a few.

 

[khalswitz]

How so? Imported GM soy is allowed to be used in animal feeds in the UK. I know of a few horse feed companies who use GM soy.

Yes, it is *allowed* to be used, but manufacturer rules make it easy to know which is which and to select non-GM feeds in the UK. There is tight regulation on companies claiming under BETA rules NOT to use GM products, so any company telling you their feeds are GM-free is under very strict rules. Therefore it is really easy to choose non-GM in the UK, compared to the States - sorry, that was my point, rather than that it isn't used.

Tnavas, I'm sorry but you are showing some ignorance there.

Firstly, as I told you already but you glossed over, BRAN and WHEAT are two different things. BRAN is a byproduct of the milling process turning whole wheat into flour, and in the 'old days' it was very fibrous, high phosphorus but relatively low in starch. The modern milling process has improved and now there is very little nutritional value to bran. HOWEVER it is not the same as feeding WHEAT - wheat is a cereal, bran is a by-product.

WHEAT FEED is also not the same as feeding WHOLE WHEAT. It is another by-product of milling, but is NOT the same as BRAN either. Wheatfeed is the main by-product of flour production (another fallacy you've stated is that wheat is 'flour-y' - whole wheat isn't, as it's a process that turns wheat to flour, and secondly wheat feed or bran won't be, as they are the byproducts of flour production!! they can be powdery, but certainly won;t have flour in - it's too expensive!). It does NOT have the energy levels of whole wheat. Most companies use wheat feed as a binder, however VERY few will actually feed whole wheat for the reasons you stated. Certainly no 'cereal-free' feeds can contain whole wheat as that is part of the regulation.

With regards to soy, you're article has loads of holes. Firstly it refers to actual soy, which is never really used in horse feeds - soy hulls (the main source of soy protein in horses) and soya oil are totally different, as is soybean meal (same story as BRAN and WHEAT - we have different products here). IThen the article goes on about phytates without counting that soy, once roasted, destroys these (most soy hulls come from roasting process). The only point it makes that references a semi-decent study rather than anecdotal evidence is that regarding female hormonal influences, and the article itself states ONLY WHEN EXCESS AMOUNTS ARE EATEN. And your whole article is about humans - and as I stated, the equine nutrition world looks very differently on soy due to the reasons I earlier stated regarding protein amino acid balances. Human digestion and equine digestion are not the same, and some of the digestive problems associated with high soy diets in humans are JUST NOT APPLICABLE in horses. So instead of accusing me of not doing my research (and I have covered the topic of soy in horses extensively already) then please do yours - there is a vast difference between soy in human diet and equine, and there are NO SCIENTIFICALLY ACCEPTED STUDIES THAT SHOW SOY TO BE PROBLEMATIC IN HORSES. in fact, there has been some great studies that show soy hulls increases cecal fermentation without upsetting pHs, which can increase the energy horses can extract from their forage, and for reduction of hind gut acidosis. http://www.ans.iastate.edu/report/air/2004pdf/AS1931.pdf

And I'm obviously banging my head on a brick wall here but it is ridiculously biased and naive to assume that correlation equals causality - just because I get up in the morning doesn't mean the sun comes up, even though it happens every day without fail. You cannot legitimately claim an increase in metabolic disorder is due to a rise in commercial feeds - it could be due to any huge change in the equine industry, change in climate, change in quality of hay etc. Like I said it's far more likely to be due to overfeeding rather than use of processed foods, which I stand by that the two are not mutually inclusive, and which you admit yourself!

"The main cause of ANY laminitis is poor management - overfed and underworked". YES. OVERFED AND UNDERWORKED. There are two parts to this - excess calories, and too little exercise. NEITHER are directly related to and entirely inclusive of processed feeds. You are completely right - THIS is the problem of our generation - not the evil feed companies.

And yes, my friend probably does overfeed her horses. But my point is that she feeds straights, and still does;t get it right - I feed commercial pellets, and I do. So processed feeds aren't the evil here, it's lack of education about nutrition and our animal's requirements. And I'm sure you've had a great success record - but you have actually looked into what you are feeding and why. I'd say it's not necessarily because you feed straights, but because you are feeding your horses correctly for their workload and condition. I've never, and I know plenty of people who have never had a problem feeding processed, branded feeds - but then again I think it comes down to education about what your are feeding, how much you are feeding and why, rather than whether you feed straights or mixes/cubes!

cptrayes, your point "Farmers with rich ryegrass grazing for dairy cows were given financial incentives to convert to livery yards. That grazing is like poison to a lot of horses." is spot on - and possibly why Tnavas has never had a problem in New Zealand and yet we do over here?

ETA - Just read Tnavas' reponse, never mind my last point.

 

[cptrayes]

I don't accept the 'commercial feed manufacturers are to blame for fat horses' argument any more than I accept that MacDonald's are responsible for fat humans.

 

[Flyermc]

I do (to a degree) believe that manufacturers are to blame. They spend a whole heap of money advertising to promote there products, sponsor classes based on the products that they sell and happen to have a supplement aimed for every minor element that i horse might get.

Its very clever marketing, its aimed at horse lovers who just want the very best for there horse.

I remember going to a lami talk, that had been put together by our vets, one thing that stood out, was the following comment made by the vet 'never look at the field/grazing, always look at your horse' i find this so true!! i used to walk our field and think 'there's no grass' and give my horses a bucket feed. I used to feel sorry for them, they'd stand at the gate (in the deepest mud) when really there was (and always has been) more than enough grass! Neither where thin (far from it) and they had plenty of energy, i was looking at completely the wrong thing. They were standing at the gate, because they chose to, no-one was forcing them to.

Over the last 2 years ive completely changed the way i feed, i now ignore fancy adverts that claim X Y and Z and think for myself. I dont have a race horse but if you saw what i used to feed you'd think i did!! completely barking and i do believe it down to clever advertising!!

Ive just done my 2nd hunt with my pony who had far to much energy!!!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

It does all boil down to the fact that people feed their horses far more than we used to. I remember as a child/teenager my pony rarely ever had hard feed - I rode and competed off grass alone.

quite-some of us still do/would. personally, IMHO it's also due to feeding adlib hay/haylege in the field and stable (ad-lib doesn't have to mean 'stuffing gob with huge mouthfuls at all times') and rugging of types that were never rugged before (unclipped Natives) or of those not in hard work in weatherproof duvets.

 

[khalswitz]

I do (to a degree) believe that manufacturers are to blame. They spend a whole heap of money advertising to promote there products, sponsor classes based on the products that they sell and happen to have a supplement aimed for every minor element that i horse might get.

Its very clever marketing, its aimed at horse lovers who just want the very best for there horse.

I remember going to a lami talk, that had been put together by our vets, one thing that stood out, was the following comment made by the vet 'never look at the field/grazing, always look at your horse' i find this so true!! i used to walk our field and think 'there's no grass' and give my horses a bucket feed. I used to feel sorry for them, they'd stand at the gate (in the deepest mud) when really there was (and always has been) more than enough grass! Neither where thin (far from it) and they had plenty of energy, i was looking at completely the wrong thing. They were standing at the gate, because they chose to, no-one was forcing them to.

Over the last 2 years ive completely changed the way i feed, i now ignore fancy adverts that claim X Y and Z and think for myself. I dont have a race horse but if you saw what i used to feed you'd think i did!! completely barking and i do believe it down to clever advertising!!

Ive just done my 2nd hunt with my pony who had far to much energy!!!

Just to point out, supplements and feeds come under very different sets of regulations. Feeds have to have evidence behind what is in them to make claims under BETA rules, however supplement companies don't, and can claim whatever they like. I would agree about over supplementation as a mentality...

 

[Tnavas]

I don't accept the 'commercial feed manufacturers are to blame for fat horses' argument any more than I accept that MacDonald's are responsible for fat humans.

PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

Every horse/pony is different and this is where the problem lies.


khalswitz - Historically wheat as a cereal has not been fed to horses because of the way it can fizz a horse up.

Bran - the bi product of milling wheat ( see I do know the difference) caused major problems at one time because it was overfed and at that time it also contained a lot of the flour still. (I actually remember that when you put your hand in the sack of flour it came out white) It's high phosphorous levels caused a lot of problems generally resulting in the affliction Millars Head. A couple of years ago a young acquaintance went on about how wonderful bran was and was feeding it to her horse - I warned her of its problem and she poo pooed it! Then her horse cracked its pedal bone! Weakened by the reduced levels of Calcium the blood had pulled from the bones. Fortunately he's recovered but several people, herself included now know that bran is not good for horses.

My objection to Wheat being added to horse feeds is that it is known by the oldies to excite horses worse than any other grain.

Some of the commercial companies tell the poor buyer that their feeds don't contain oats! So they won't wind up your horse, instead they have barley - higher carbs than oats, wheat - higher carbs than oats, maize - higher carbs than oats.

I've now got quite a few of my Pony Club kids feeding oats rather than commercial foods, they are all reporting that their ponies have energy but are better behaved.

As far as SOY and horses go - maybe we'll have to wait for a few more years before the scientists discover that they were wrong! We've seen the addition of Soy to feeds for only about 20 years or so in UK and only the last decade here in NZ.

It's taken many decades of feeding Soy to humans to finally realise it's not the wonder food they initially thought it was.

I will still do my best to wise people up to what is in their horses commercially prepared feed and encourage them to feed a high fibre diet - their horses are healthier, less prone to ulcers and saner!

I do my best to encourage my younger Pony Club members to not hard feed their ponies at all - the majority of them don't work them enough for them to require hard feeding.

A study - a long term one (20 years or so, starting from birth) needs to be done on the effects of commercially prepared foods on the equine compared with those that are only ever fed straights. The study needs to cover the many different breeds and temperaments too.

When you see a high level of problems caused by diet you have to look at all the factors that have changed.

Commercial foods
Overfeeding
Insufficient work

 

[SO1]

I only use about 2 bags of feed a year as I have a good doer pony living out on good grazing so he only gets a handful of feed plus magnesium and a herbal supplement.

I have choosen Lmix by Allen and Page as this was the lowest in starch and sugar I could find and is mollasses free. The problem with the non branded feeds is that it is not very easy to find out what the sugar and starch and DE are for them.

 

[khalswitz]

PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

Every horse/pony is different and this is where the problem lies.


khalswitz - Historically wheat as a cereal has not been fed to horses because of the way it can fizz a horse up.

Bran - the bi product of milling wheat ( see I do know the difference) caused major problems at one time because it was overfed and at that time it also contained a lot of the flour still. (I actually remember that when you put your hand in the sack of flour it came out white) It's high phosphorous levels caused a lot of problems generally resulting in the affliction Millars Head. A couple of years ago a young acquaintance went on about how wonderful bran was and was feeding it to her horse - I warned her of its problem and she poo pooed it! Then her horse cracked its pedal bone! Weakened by the reduced levels of Calcium the blood had pulled from the bones. Fortunately he's recovered but several people, herself included now know that bran is not good for horses.

My objection to Wheat being added to horse feeds is that it is known by the oldies to excite horses worse than any other grain.

Some of the commercial companies tell the poor buyer that their feeds don't contain oats! So they won't wind up your horse, instead they have barley - higher carbs than oats, wheat - higher carbs than oats, maize - higher carbs than oats.

I've now got quite a few of my Pony Club kids feeding oats rather than commercial foods, they are all reporting that their ponies have energy but are better behaved.

As far as SOY and horses go - maybe we'll have to wait for a few more years before the scientists discover that they were wrong! We've seen the addition of Soy to feeds for only about 20 years or so in UK and only the last decade here in NZ.

It's taken many decades of feeding Soy to humans to finally realise it's not the wonder food they initially thought it was.

I will still do my best to wise people up to what is in their horses commercially prepared feed and encourage them to feed a high fibre diet - their horses are healthier, less prone to ulcers and saner!

I do my best to encourage my younger Pony Club members to not hard feed their ponies at all - the majority of them don't work them enough for them to require hard feeding.

A study - a long term one (20 years or so, starting from birth) needs to be done on the effects of commercially prepared foods on the equine compared with those that are only ever fed straights. The study needs to cover the many different breeds and temperaments too.

When you see a high level of problems caused by diet you have to look at all the factors that have changed.

Commercial foods
Overfeeding
Insufficient work

Just one last point, and really not dying to be picky here I promise! But not all commercial feeds are exclusive of a high fibre, low starch and sugar diet. More feed companies are slowly coming around to this - Dengie for one, Winergy Equilibrium range another, A&P making a stab at it with their Barley and Molasses Free range... I personally feed Alfa-A Oil (no cereals or molasses), Alfa-Beet and D&H ERS Pellets (high oil and fibre for horses with ERS/EPSM/Tying-up), and have a high energy, low starch & sugar, cereal-free diet for my EPSM horse.

So just because it is a commercial feed doesn't automatically make it high cereal and high sugar. However I agree that if horses and ponies don't need feed (and most in light work don't), then we shouldn't be feeding them anything more than some type of vit/min supp - whether in lick form/powder with a little chaff/ balancer.

Good on you for catching your Pony Clubbers early and educating them about feeding. That's the age to teach them!! And I'd agree I'd rather use oats than barley/peas/wheat/maize - and used to with my previous horses, unfortunately current one can't have them .


ETA:

When you see a high level of problems caused by diet you have to look at all the factors that have changed.

Commercial foods
Overfeeding
Insufficient work

I agree completely. That is a much more balanced way of looking at it. And horse feeds becoming more popular, having more brand association, advertising, feed-related nutritionists all these things can affect what people choose to feed, and whilst there is nothing inherently wrong with using a branded feed, it is too easy for people to think they need a feed these days when this isn't the case.

 

[Flyermc]

PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

This is what i mean, i feed cheapo white bag rolled oats. They look like crushed oats and smell like oats, however i keep looking at tiger oats and thinking 'oh they might be better quality' however they are twice the price (not a problem, my pony means the world to me) however, this is were i used to get 'stuck' does my horse actually need better quality oats? (no) does he look great the way he is? (yes) is he lacking energy? (no) so why to i still feel like i should be feeding the branded ones?

Ive even read this tread, thinking 'oh i bet Flyer would like some speedibeet' but does he need sugarbeet adding to his diet? (no) so again, why am i feeling like a bad owner for not giving my boy huge feeds that he doesnt need? its barmy

 

[Tnavas]

I only use about 2 bags of feed a year as I have a good doer pony living out on good grazing so he only gets a handful of feed plus magnesium and a herbal supplement.

I have choosen Lmix by Allen and Page as this was the lowest in starch and sugar I could find and is mollasses free. The problem with the non branded feeds is that it is not very easy to find out what the sugar and starch and DE are for them.

Maybe save yourself some money and just buy a multi mineral block - I don't feed any of mine more than a mineral block and they are as healthy as - I've not had to call in the vet for over 20 years!

 

[Tnavas]

PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

This is what i mean, i feed cheapo white bag rolled oats. They look like crushed oats and smell like oats, however i keep looking at tiger oats and thinking 'oh they might be better quality' however they are twice the price (not a problem, my pony means the world to me) however, this is were i used to get 'stuck' does my horse actually need better quality oats? (no) does he look great the way he is? (yes) is he lacking energy? (no) so why to i still feel like i should be feeding the branded ones?

Ive even read this tread, thinking 'oh i bet Flyer would like some speedibeet' but does he need sugarbeet adding to his diet? (no) so again, why am i feeling like a bad owner for not giving my boy huge feeds that he doesnt need? its barmy

Tiger Oats are yet another 'Brand' a mixture of Black and White oats and my understanding is that the nutritive value of them is much the same. Tiger Oats have just been played with and other stuff added. Yet another marketing ploy.

It's great to hear that you are back to basics with your Flyer. He will be a happy horse and you'll have more money in your pocket as a result.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

Yup, totally agree. And how many owners these days start at Pony Club and get that basic training? Not so many, so where does everyone else get their info from? From all those lovely ads in horsey mags and the feed manufacturers who know perfectly well that very few leisure ponies and horses need any hard feed but still they recommend twice daily bucket loads of pasture mix for the fat lead rein pony who gets ridden once in a blue moon!

Ive even read this tread, thinking 'oh i bet Flyer would like some speedibeet' but does he need sugarbeet adding to his diet? (no) so again, why am i feeling like a bad owner for not giving my boy huge feeds that he doesnt need? its barmy

Heh heh, I did the same when I saw cherry flavoured chaff in my feedstore recently, had to take a deep breath and count to 10..!

 

[cptrayes]

If the market was suddenly stripped back to the early eighties, with only nuts, oats, barley, bran sugar beet and flaked maize available as horse food, then I believe we would still have fat horses, because people like to feed their animals and they like to see them fat.

If you are talking about peer pressure, then In my opinion, modern showing has more to answer for overweight horses than the feed manufacturers pushing food onto owners.