Why can there not be a system where all vets histories can be linked together for a potential buyer?

[Birker2020]

Following on from me getting stung buying my horse in October 2021 after spending 12.5K purchasing him and approx. £6k trying to get to the route of his issues only to find he had KS, SI issues, neck arthritis, hock and coffin joint arthritis, and possible PSD. He was extremely reactive under saddle and got steadily worse the more he was ridden. For those that have followed my story, you will know he is now living a lovely life at retirement aged 12.

Initially Lari passed a 5 stage vetting from a vet in Cheshire which I selected out of a list the seller gave me. When ringing for a quotation for a vetting they all asked details of the seller/ horses passported name to ensure there was no conflict of interest.
After all the diagnostics with my own vets practice following me purchasing him, my own vet finally admitted that he should never have passed the vetting. I contacted various solicitors but I had no way of proving/disproving that the seller knew the horse had issues, only my gut feeling afterwards and the fact that a lot of what she had said at the viewing made sense in the cold light of day. I walked away with nothing.

I asked the seller to provide me with a full clinical history of the horse but I didn't realise at the time you can have more than one vet practice attend your horse. So if Practice A has only given routine flu/tet and teeth care to a horse and Practice B have been involved in carrying out lameness workups, x-rays or surgery, you are obviously only ever going to get a report sent to you from the buyer from Practice A. Why is there not a way of linking all this clinical history together???? Like the Police National Database, or CareFirst which is social care case management platform which links clients from all over the country to record social care provision. Why are we so backward in this?? You can't say its rare for people to have this problem either, you only need to look at the two Dodgy Dealers websites I am a member of on Facebook to know this is happening all the time, day after day, week after week, year after year. I was sent the profile for a smashing looking horse last week, the information contained in the add made me want to lift up the phone for the first time since starting to 'casually look' again. I managed to uncover the fact on a Dodgy Dealer site that it was a horse being sold by someone who had missold a horse to a lady a few months before - the mare had been pts because it was too badly injured and could not be saved. This goes on all the time.

Its so unfair but there is not point bemoaning this, we need to take action! So what can the average 'Joe Bloggs' do to take action against this type of thing? How can we even begin to try and change policies so that all vets are linked to one system and all information is linked together, either under the horses passported name which would be the most obvious choice or its microchip number????

 

[twiggy2]

I see what your saying and agree that people should be more honest, it's not just the dealers though, most people I know who have sold to a dealer have done so because they have an issue they have suspicions about or have something conformed and they don't want to lose money, often I don't think the dealers know there is an issue they just pass the horses on.
My worry would be people would be more reluctant to involve a vet if things would show up in records anyone could access.

 

[Goldenstar]

In the position Op was in I would have sued the vet who did the vetting .

 

[Birker2020]

My worry would be people would be more reluctant to involve a vet if things would show up in records anyone could access.

Possibly. But in my particular case and probably the case with many, I believe that the seller has already started the journey I went through in terms of lameness investigation, possible x-rays, etc. I think they knew that the horse had comprehensive issues and was never going to be suitable so decided to sell. If that was the case that would have saved me from losing all my money. In a way I don't regret buying Lari as I have taken him out of the chain of what may have been a very uncertain future had someone bought him that didn't want to put in the work/time/finances and heartache that I did and of course I have found a deep and unconditional love with what is a very special horse for which I am eternally grateful. When I call him with 'his whistle' and he sticks his head in the air and starts walking towards us from a great distance and is visibly pleased to see us, its a wonderful feeling.

Goldenstar - the issue with suing the vet is that it costs a lot of money to sue someone, you have got to have proof that the vet didn't carry out the vetting correctly and to do that you would have to have the service of an independent vet and trying to find such a person would be very hard, no vet want's to get involved in taking to task another vet, I did broach the subject with my vet but they didn't want to know. I also talked to the vet that carried out the vetting but didn't get anywhere with him. That is the main issue. And at the end of the day the answer would be 'he passed on the day' with the much used phrase 'a vetting is only as good as what the vet finds on the day'. So given that all that was against me and the risk that any judge might have asked me to return the horse to the seller in order to get my money back (which I was not prepared to do under any circumstances) then it was a no go from day one.

 

[ycbm]

In the position Op was in I would have sued the vet who did the vetting .

I tried once, horse had navicular and vet said it failed a flexion because he had just trodden on a stone.

By the time I realised just how much it was going to cost and how strong the Veterinary Defence Society is, I was £1500 out of pocket, at today's values.
.

 

[Birker2020]

I tried once, horse had navicular and vet said it failed a flexion because he had just trodden on a stone.

By the time I realised just how much it was going to cost and how strong the Veterinary Defence Society is, I was £1500 out of pocket, at today's values.
.

This is what I feared.

 

[ycbm]

Can I just caution people that insurance companies check social media and if you write that you bought a horse with issues then an insurance company has every right not to pay out. B is OK because the claims have already been settled, but be cautious on social media folks.

 

[Birker2020]

Can I just caution people that insurance companies check social media and if you write that you bought a horse with issues then an insurance company has every right not to pay out. B is OK because the claims have already been settled, but be cautious on social media folks.

Gosh I always thought this was an urban legend?
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, its an insurance companies job to try and get out of paying isn't it?

 

[ycbm]

Gosh I always thought this was an urban legend?
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, its an insurance companies job to try and get out of paying isn't it?

@Michen on this forum had to take her case to the ombudsman, where she won, due to a chance remark she made on the forum, I think about whether box rest for a different condition could have contributed to later hock arthritis.

You were lucky, I think, that nobody connected your musings about Lari being missold with the insurance claims you were making for his treatment. I actually felt your vet was unethical in telling you what he did while also submitting insurance claims as if his conditions were new.
.

 

[baran]

How can we even begin to try and change policies so that all vets are linked to one system and all information is linked together, either under the horses passported name which would be the most obvious choice or its microchip number????

Sorry if you been having problems but what you are suggesting is not practical in the real world. Every vet practice in the UK would have to replace their computer systems and keep paying for upgrades. I can see how well that would go down with clients who are already moaning about veterinary costs. There are innumerable different passporting bodies who are unlikely to want to merge, especially where they are a breed society. There are various companies offering microchipping, also unlikely to want to give up their business to some combined body. Also, how may horses have the same name? it would be hopeless trying to identify a specific Neddy. At one time, there were 4 horses on the yard with the same name.

On vetting, if we have been unable to use our own vet, we have asked them for a recommendation in the area the horse is. I certainly would not accept a recommendation from the seller.

 

[Birker2020]

@Michen on this forum had to take her case to the ombudsman, where she won, due to a chance remark she made on the forum, I think about whether box rest for a different condition could have contributed to later hock arthritis.

You were lucky, I think, that nobody connected your musings about Lari being missold with the insurance claims you were making for his treatment. I actually felt your vet was unethical in telling you what he did while also submitting insurance claims as if his conditions were new.
.

If you remember Lari suffered an accident two weeks into me owning him (a pull back accident) which meant that he was being treated for this as under the terms of the policy. He had acute SI strain as a result. Only by having a number of lameness investigations and diagnostics were the other things found and treated in order to get the horse sound. There was no misleading claims made to the insurance company, they would not have paid out if they had thought there was. As he had not been investigated for the things that I claimed for prior to this point ( I think the important word here is diagnosed) then they determined that I was within my rights to claim for them. If these issues had been flagged up on the vetting certificate then he would not have been covered, but then neither would he have been insured. They weren't so therefore all claims stood.

Its the same with any horse that is treated for hocks, SI or back after purchasing whether that be a week, a month or a year. You could argue anything is pre-existing but there is the burden on proof and that can't be established without a failed vetting certificate. If a vet has diagnosed a condition then it becomes pre existing.

I used two different vets practices during the time Lari was treated and both submitted invoices and wrote lengthy reports that the underwriters accepted.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

The NHS have spent millions trying to join up all their info and failed so I guess the chance of all the independent vet companies being able to do it is a far away fantasy…sadly.

 

[Birker2020]

Also, how may horses have the same name? it would be hopeless trying to identify a specific Neddy. At one time, there were 4 horses on the yard with the same name.

On vetting, if we have been unable to use our own vet, we have asked them for a recommendation in the area the horse is. I certainly would not accept a recommendation from the seller.

That's why I said passported names or microchips would have to be 'proof'.
I asked my vets for a recommendation but Warwickshire is nowhere near Cheshire and they did not know of anyone in that area.
I did (from memory) ask on this forum too.

 

[Birker2020]

The NHS have spent millions trying to join up all their info and failed so I guess the chance of all the independent vet companies being able to do it is a far away fantasy…sadly.

When I last worked in social care which was 2016 I seem to remember that they were talking using CareFirst in this way back then.

 

[Birker2020]

deleted

 

[Highmileagecob]

I agree with you, it is a very grey area. Even if you did link passport numbers or microchips, these can be changed by a determined person. And the vetting is only a snapshot of the horse on the day. I suppose the only solution is sale with trial, with vetting to take place fourteen days into the trial. But then the dodgy dealer will have vanished.....

 

[Fielder]

Completely emphathise, my friend has a horse who had a field injury within the exclusion window and has been on box rest for 2 months scan came back clear for starting light work but concerns of SI prior condition not flagged they are starting in hand rehab but alot is uncertain when you have half the picture!. They darent send back due to the state the arrived in got to respect her effort .. even though she should have got a vetting!!

 

[Michen]

@Michen on this forum had to take her case to the ombudsman, where she won, due to a chance remark she made on the forum, I think about whether box rest for a different condition could have contributed to later hock arthritis.

You were lucky, I think, that nobody connected your musings about Lari being missold with the insurance claims you were making for his treatment. I actually felt your vet was unethical in telling you what he did while also submitting insurance claims as if his conditions were new.
.

Yep mine was a bit more complicated as that wasn’t actually the argument they bought forward as to why they hadn’t paid out. My policy jumped everything together that was found at the time of initial investigation into a problem. Except he flexed sound and never blocked or had a hock issue when he was worked up for the injury. So that’s what I had to prove.

They were just trying to scare me into submission that I didn’t have a case.

Horribly company. Ironically the underwriters worked in the same building as me in London and I used to feel so angry every time I’d see their name!

 

[SEL]

I've seen some social media updates from vets recently saying that they have now got guidance that they must share records between practices - but will require client consent because of data protection issues.

Still relies on the client being genuine enough to agree.

 

[Birker2020]

I've seen some social media updates from vets recently saying that they have now got guidance that they must share records between practices - but will require client consent because of data protection issues.

Still relies on the client being genuine enough to agree.

Well that is a step in the right direction, but like you say, the emphasise is on having an honest seller.

 

[Red-1]

Well that is a step in the right direction, but like you say, the emphasise is on having an honest seller.

One way round it would be to ring the local practices and ask for a quote for vetting along with the check that there is no conflict of interest.

If one flags a conflict, then I would ask the seller to release records from that practice.

I have done this. They do have to say if there is a conflict of interest. I became cadgy after someone I know told me that they'd sold a horse as sound and declared one vet as the horse's vet, which was for vaccinations etc. However, the horse had been through numerous investigations with another. I had no idea that particular person would do that and was furious because 1. The horse was put straight into full work, as they had been told he was in it already. 2. the poor, poor new owners had their money taken and were now the proud owners of a lame horse. 3. I thought I knew that person, and obviously I am not as good a judge of character as I previously believed.

If that person can do it, others can too, so now I call vets to ask for a quote to make sure, as far as I can, that the horse isn't registered with multiple vets.

 

[ycbm]

One way round it would be to ring the local practices and ask for a quote for vetting along with the check that there is no conflict of interest.

If one flags a conflict, then I would ask the seller to release records from that practice.

What a genius of an idea!
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

In the position Op was in I would have sued the vet who did the vetting .

From earlier posts I am aware of which vet that Birker did use for Lari's vetting, and whilst I have never personally used them they are generally well regarded locally as an equine vet.

I don't know how Lari was passed fit on the day either, but something definitely doesn't add up somewhere. Any vet can have an off day, I suppose.

 

[Birker2020]

One way round it would be to ring the local practices and ask for a quote for vetting along with the check that there is no conflict of interest.

If one flags a conflict, then I would ask the seller to release records from that practice.

I have done this. They do have to say if there is a conflict of interest. I became cadgy after someone I know told me that they'd sold a horse as sound and declared one vet as the horse's vet, which was for vaccinations etc. However, the horse had been through numerous investigations with another. I had no idea that particular person would do that and was furious because 1. The horse was put straight into full work, as they had been told he was in it already. 2. the poor, poor new owners had their money taken and were now the proud owners of a lame horse. 3. I thought I knew that person, and obviously I am not as good a judge of character as I previously believed.

If that person can do it, others can too, so now I call vets to ask for a quote to make sure, as far as I can, that the horse isn't registered with multiple vets.

Yes I hadn't realised at the time that you could use more than one vet but I would do that this time round I think even if I used my own vet for the vetting.

 

[Birker2020]

From earlier posts I am aware of which vet that Birker did use for Lari's vetting, and whilst I have never personally used them they are generally well regarded locally as an equine vet.

I don't know how Lari was passed fit on the day either, but something definitely doesn't add up somewhere. Any vet can have an off day, I suppose.

Yes they are well regarded apparently. Thank you for not mentioning who they are though. Appreciate it, obviously when I said who I was using it was prior to the vetting.

 

[Beanie_Boo_]

I’m looking in to getting a horse with a past tendon injury and had come back in to work this June after been out of work from last September he is working sound I would like him to be an all rounder what is everyone’s thoughts

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I’m looking in to getting a horse with a past tendon injury and had come back in to work this June after been out of work from last September he is working sound I would like him to be an all rounder what is everyone’s thoughts

Depending on how significant the tendon injury was and where it was it shouldn't cause any issue later in life or stop the horse doing whatever you want it to do. Many racehorses return to racing after a rendon injury and a year out.

 

[honetpot]

Gosh I always thought this was an urban legend?
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, its an insurance companies job to try and get out of paying isn't it?

My neighbour who was sick pay had her social media checked by her sickeness insurance company. I think someone may of shopped her because she is a very..........person.

 

[Sanversera]

Our old vets stopped doing horse vetting after someone tried to sue them.

 

[Maesfen]

In the position Op was in I would have sued the vet who did the vetting .

A vetting is only valid for that day, at the time of the vetting, not five minutes past that time.