Why do German breeders still burn their babies?

cptrayes

cptrayes

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I have a 5 year old Westphalian with the most beautiful, trusting, quiet nature and I was looking at the huge brand on his bum this morning - over nine inches high, a complicated "cupcake with a cherry on the top" and the figure 18 over an inch high below it.

I just wondered how anyone could have taken him as a baby and deliberately burnt him like that, and why on earth he forgave them and continued to have as trusting a nature as he has.

He is chipped and he has a full passport. I know chips can be lost/fail but he could also be DNA tested these days to establish his parentage. My KWPN is not branded and is equally well bred.

So - does anyone know WHY some German breed societies still have the breeders burn their babies????
 
joeanne said:
Some forest ponies are branded too....not just the Germans that do it!
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I can see more justification for branding a Forest pony - I think they do it as a way of showing the ownership when they range free in the Forest??? - than a horse whose parentage is documented more than 5 generations back just to show that it is a particular breed.
 
It is an emotive issue and my understanding of it is that the reason for branding (for Warmbloods) is to demonstrate that the horse has met the 'breed standard' as defined by the studbook or breed society. Youngsters have to be inspected and approved before they are branded but I think it may be up to the breeder/owner whether they go through this process.
 
I expect it is that people are so used to the 'tradition' they simply don't stop to think what a crazy idea it is. Plus, as with many traditions, it holds a certain 'cachet'. Like docking tails on pet dogs... people didn't used to question it.

Personally I find it pretty offensive. I know that the nerves burn off relatively quickly but plenty of human burns victims will tell you healing isn't fun and really it is totally unnecessary these days.
 
cptrayes said:
I can see more justification for branding a Forest pony - I think they do it as a way of showing the ownership when they range free in the Forest??? - than a horse whose parentage is documented more than 5 generations back just to show that it is a particular breed.
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They mark foresters in other ways as well, to show who owns them, all be it in ways that have to be done every year.
I really don't get your argument that it is allright to hot brand a forest pony but not to do it to your well bred horse.
If you were arguing on the grounds of cruelty, you would say it was cruel to any horse/pony.
 
Fii said:
They mark foresters in other ways as well, to show who owns them, all be it in ways that have to be done every year.
I really don't get your argument that it is allright to hot brand a forest pony but not to do it to your well bred horse.
If you were arguing on the grounds of cruelty, you would say it was cruel to any horse/pony.
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Quite agree with you Fii.
With WB it's a bit like designer handbags, you can see straight away if the horse is approved or not whereas a Forest pony it is more to identify the herd it's from rather than the studbook.
 
Fii said:
They mark foresters in other ways as well, to show who owns them, all be it in ways that have to be done every year.
I really don't get your argument that it is allright to hot brand a forest pony but not to do it to your well bred horse.
If you were arguing on the grounds of cruelty, you would say it was cruel to any horse/pony.
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I did not say it was all right. I said that I could see more justification. Herds of ponies roam the forest but they belong to different people. It would be wholly impractical to have to scan them to find out who they belonged to, or DNA test the ones that the chip failed in and temporary marks are easy to remove.

There is no justification whatsoever for branding my Westphalian which would not also apply to my KWPN, and yet only one has been deliberately, severely burnt over an unnecessarily large area.
 
Probably stupid q but- With the forest ponies, why can't they just freezemark them ? They have to catch them and hold them still etc - or does freezemarking hurt as well? XxX
 
The_Hooligan said:
I dont agree with any if you, it is done for a purpose, and Branding/Freeze Marking/Chipping is all painful and all have reasons. if you have ever witnessed it you will know that it is done and treated as well as is possible,
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"As well as is possible" is not good enough for me, sorry. Because it is obviously completely unnecessary for a warmblood to be burnt at all. My KWPN has a GP showjumper father and a good dressage mother and has no brand but I know his breeding back at least 5 generations. There is no practical difference between him and my Westphalian, who has a GP dressage father and good mother. Yet someone saw fit for no purpose except visibly marking a good horse as "their breed standard" to deliberately burn a small colt.

Chipping is as painful as your last flu jab or blood donation. Deep burning is excruciating at the time and horrendous as the nerve endings recover over an extended period. Freeze marking is done with an unsedated horse held on a headcollar. I'll be my bottom dollar they can't burn a colt or filly with a hot iron without restraining it more than that!
 
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Branding isn't burning, the brand is too hot, it kills nerves nearly instantly.

Freezemarking also doesn't hurt for the same reason, it's too cold to burn.

I like branding. It means you can spot in an instant the breeding of an animal of worth. With some brands you can spot the year and possibly even the sire.
So much more effective than these forged passports and unscanned microchips!!!!!
 
So, are you talking about cruelty, or the fact you think your horse has been blemished for no good reason?
After all, a horse is a horse (or pony) in terms of feeling pain or being marked. Does'nt matter if it is a posh warmblood, or a humble pony.
 
Serenity087 said:
Branding isn't burning, the brand is too hot, it kills nerves nearly instantly.
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THIS is PRICELESS!!!!! It IS burning and the nerves regrow with considerable pain for ages - ask a human burn victim!

Serenity087 said:
Freezemarking also doesn't hurt for the same reason, it's too cold to burn.
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That's why I find it acceptable. But it does burn, you can see the horse is uncomfortable about half an hour later. It just doesn't hurt nearly as much, which is why it can be done with the horse in a headcollar being loosely held on a lead rope.

Serenity087 said:
I like branding. It means you can spot in an instant the breeding of an animal of worth.

With some brands you can spot the year and possibly even the sire.
So much more effective than these forged passports and unscanned microchips!!!!!
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This last bit HAS to be troll surely? You like a baby horse to be burned because you can tell what it is without looking at its passport????????
 
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Serenity087 said:
Branding isn't burning, the brand is too hot, it kills nerves nearly instantly.

Freezemarking also doesn't hurt for the same reason, it's too cold to burn.

I like branding. It means you can spot in an instant the breeding of an animal of worth. With some brands you can spot the year and possibly even the sire.
So much more effective than these forged passports and unscanned microchips!!!!!
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I have to agree with you about the forged passports and microchips! Especially through horse sales with dodgy dealers etc
 
Fii said:
So, are you talking about cruelty, or the fact you think your horse has been blemished for no good reason?
After all, a horse is a horse (or pony) in terms of feeling pain or being marked. Does'nt matter if it is a posh warmblood, or a humble pony.
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I am talking about cruelty for no purpose whatsoever. I find it very sad that the lovely trusting creature that I have in my stable was once held down and deliberately burned. I think that it should be banned except where it is required to identify ownership in feral herds, where it seems to me to be the lesser of two evils - freeze branding takes a long time and could cause a wild foal even more distress that hot iron branding.
 
My branded PRE is branded with a freezemark. Why is this not the standard - is it due to cost?

I'd have thought that if the Spanish, who are hugely traditional, can move towards a freezemark-brand, there should be no reason why other countries can't do the same.
 
bakedbean said:
Me too..

How about incorporating burning witches aswell
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I generally call spades spades. I have my horses shot, not put to sleep. Docking is cutting off a puppy's tail.

Branding is burning and it is done to baby horses.

What's your problem with that - proud of being able to ride a horse with a "badge" on it like a Hermes handbag, are you?
 
bakedbean said:
Foresters "burn their babies" too..

and good on them i say.

far more indentifiable than a stupid micro-chip IMO

And there is scientifically NO difference whatsoever than having a freeze-brand.
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I challenge you to hot brand a foal with a headcollar and a loose rope holding it, as you can do with a freeze mark.

No difference? Don't make me laugh!
 
DragonSlayer said:
I hate to say it OP, but your title is terribly put......

:/
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Agreed.

Sorry, here we go, fluffy bunnies out again. I dont have an opinion one way or the other on branding, I dont know anything about it, I cant really comment, but I guess it cant be too pleasant. However, having seen my cob freezemarked by Farm Key, he just lifted an eyebrow at the process and concentrated on his feed bucket while it was being done. So definitely not cruel and the soreness was minimal.

Is now wandering back to the comparative safety of CR where the fluffy bunnies are not quite so common.
 
bakedbean said:
All my foresters were branded standing up....i dont live in Arizona..so i dont know how i'm supposed to make you laugh? :confused:
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Standing up and held how? And since you have now declared yourself as a forrester, please note that I have already said that I think your branding is justified.
 
cptrayes said:
I challenge you to hot brand a foal with a headcollar and a loose rope holding it, as you can do with a freeze mark.

No difference? Don't make me laugh!
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Why the sudden offensive?

You posted a thread with an offensive title IMO, and people challenge you, you get a bit ******?

There are far worse things that can happen to a horse than branding.

What about horses that get stolen? Easily identifiable with a brand....so the much-loved horse has better chance of getting back home, rather than being passed from pillar to post, and who knows....the knackers yard.....
 
TheoryX1 said:
Agreed.

Sorry, here we go, fluffy bunnies out again. I dont have an opinion one way or the other on branding, I dont know anything about it, I cant really comment, but I guess it cant be too pleasant. However, having seen my cob freezemarked by Farm Key, he just lifted an eyebrow at the process and concentrated on his feed bucket while it was being done. So definitely not cruel and the soreness was minimal.

Is now wandering back to the comparative safety of CR where the fluffy bunnies are not quite so common.
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Freeze marking is fine, who has said that it isn't, certainly not me.

I suggest you read the thread on whether its ever right to hit a horse before you call me a fluffy bunny - the posters there would howl with amusement, or outrage :)
 
DragonSlayer said:
Why the sudden offensive?

You posted a thread with an offensive title IMO, and people challenge you, you get a bit ******?

There are far worse things that can happen to a horse than branding.

What about horses that get stolen? Easily identifiable with a brand....so the much-loved horse has better chance of getting back home, rather than being passed from pillar to post, and who knows....the knackers yard.....
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What ARE you talking about? If you want your horse identified you need a unique freezemark.

There are far worse things that can happen to a horse than being deliberately burned? Does that make it OK?????????????????????

No offensive here, just answering your point.
 
cptrayes said:
What ARE you talking about? If you want your horse identified you need a unique freezemark.

There are far worse things that can happen to a horse than being deliberately burned? Does that make it OK?????????????????????

No offensive here, just answering your point.
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Definately on the offensive with that many ?????????????????????????

I think you need to breathe and re-read my post, I think you know then...what I am talking about.
 
cptrayes said:
I am talking about cruelty for no purpose whatsoever. I find it very sad that the lovely trusting creature that I have in my stable was once held down and deliberately burned. I think that it should be banned except where it is required to identify ownership in feral herds, where it seems to me to be the lesser of two evils - freeze branding takes a long time and could cause a wild foal even more distress that hot iron branding.
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Your foal may have been "held down" and branded, i still can't get my head around your argument, that it was wrong for him but not for a "wild pony", they arent all wild antway.
You can't ban something for being cruel, but then say it's allright in some sercomstances (sp)
I am not trying to get your back up, but you are going to have to make a stand on this, it's either cruel to hot brand in all circumstances, or, what you really mean is you feel, that your lovely horse has been, visually scarred for life.
 
galician ponies in northern Spain used to have their ears cut to identify them they brand them now i think as it was deemed less cruel than cutting half a ponies ear off
 
Fii said:
Your foal may have been "held down" and branded, i still can't get my head around your argument, that it was wrong for him but not for a "wild pony", they arent all wild antway.
You can't ban something for being cruel, but then say it's allright in some sercomstances (sp)
I am not trying to get your back up, but you are going to have to make a stand on this, it's either cruel to hot brand in all circumstances, or, what you really mean is you feel, that your lovely horse has been, visually scarred for life.
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She didn't say it was alright in some circumstances, she said she could see where the justification is in branding a wild pony for proof of ownership purposes, she quite clearly said she didn't think it was alright to do it.

I agree, its not right full stop BUT to do it in the name of 'fashion' or 'status' or 'tradition' is ridiculous.

Hooligan - you seriously think that branding, freezemarking and micro chipping all hurt the same amount? I take it you never watched jamie oliver (was it him or was it that horsy woman, or did JO do the castrating?? ) branding cattle in america? they hog tie them to brand them, why if it doesn't hurt??
Are you really saying that given the choice between having a scalding hot bar held on your arm OR being injected with a needle you really wouldn't mind which it was as they hurt the same!!


CPT - bet you've not been called a 'fluffy bunny' in a while ROFL
 
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