Why do German breeders still burn their babies?

cptrayes said:
Sportznite I wonder if that is a viable alternative? From what I understand of a number tattoo, it would be done in one quick punch like a date-stamp and over. I don't know if that's legal or ever been considered, do you?
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Tattooing the underside of the upperlip is, in the main, horrendous! A LOT of US TB's are tattooed. They fade though and can be bloody difficult to read - a horse that has had it lip tatooed, is very often difficult to twitch (which is a huge issue in the breeding sheds) and often will not allow the tattoo to be read. Kinda defeats the object IMO.

I HATE holding foals for chipping - those chips are HUGE! Sedated or not, it's grim.
 
Sportznight said:
Tattooing the underside of the upperlip is, in the main, horrendous! A LOT of US TB's are tattooed. They fade though and can be bloody difficult to read - a horse that has had it lip tatooed, is very often difficult to twitch (which is a huge issue in the breeding sheds) and often will not allow the tattoo to be read. Kinda defeats the object IMO.

I HATE holding foals for chipping - those chips are HUGE! Sedated or not, it's grim.
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OK tattooing is a no-no then. Why didn't you just say so?

We chip cats in this country with a chip "big" enough to activate a cat door. Surely the chips in horses in the UK are no bigger than the chips we put in cats?


Ps just googled it and our chips ar the size of a grain of rice.
 
by buying the horse surely you have indirectly accepted the practice?

If its so barbaric vote with your wallet and dont buy the horses, if enough people object then maybe practices will be questioned
 
Yuck I hate branding. Luckily for me I keep a small number of horses in a secure field so it's not really something I will ever have to consider for my lot.

Does freezebranding hurt? I was always given the impression that it was pretty painless?
 
I asked my horse's breeder this [I'm v lucky we are in touch - she is in Germany], she said the main reason was although microchips can contain all the info, there's a belief that they are somehow 'not permanent' - the computer containing the info could break, the chip itself might corrupt. Lots of things like that.

Possibly the bigger issue is why a lot of continental breeders send wagon loads of yearlings to the butcher every year for not making the grade....
 
Evelyn said:
Unfortunately there are rogues out there that will tell you the horse is by so & so out of so & so and unless there is a brand that can be traced you have no way of believing them.
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This. We have a Grand Prix stallion on our yard who is worth well over £50k. He is chipped and hot branded AS WELL AS having the breeder 'brand' on his lower hind.

bubba.jpg


you can make it out in this pic

So, if your WB is so wellbred, one of these markings may be to prove where he came from...
 
I think branding is horrid too, but I also think freezemarking hurts - having had one of my ponies done years ago, his reaction to freezemarking was that it hurt! It useless anyway - my current horse is meant to be branded - one on his thigh and one on his neck but none are visible, Ive never seen a hint of his thigh one and on his neck which is meant to be a number looks more like a faint "RIP"!!! I bet the neck hurt like hell, at least the thigh is fleshy.

I think its utterly pointless and ugly!
 
WelshD said:
by buying the horse surely you have indirectly accepted the practice?

If its so barbaric vote with your wallet and dont buy the horses, if enough people object then maybe practices will be questioned
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I suppose I did. I never thought about it at the time but I would still have bought him because he is so lovely.


(For other readers, barbaric is your term, not mine.)
 
TheEquineOak said:
This. We have a Grand Prix stallion on our yard who is worth well over £50k. He is chipped and hot branded AS WELL AS having the breeder 'brand' on his lower hind.

bubba.jpg


you can make it out in this pic

So, if your WB is so wellbred, one of these markings may be to prove where he came from...
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It would be a damned sight easier to fake the brand than it would be to fake his passport, and well worth it if he is worth that amount of money.

BOTH my warmbloods are by Grand Prix fathers out of good mothers. Only one is branded.
 
cptrayes said:
OK tattooing is a no-no then. Why didn't you just say so?
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Does it really take a rocket scientist to work out the impracticalities of tattooing the underside of a horses lip? Also, it's not exactly a visible deterrent!

We chip cats in this country with a chip "big" enough to activate a cat door. Surely the chips in horses in the UK are no bigger than the chips we put in cats?


Ps just googled it and our chips ar the size of a grain of rice.
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I have no idea how big the chips are that are put in cats (why would I?). Perhaps you should google the size of the needles used to chip... IMO there are enough needle shy animals as it is...!
 
horse and cat chips are the same size, cat chips go under the skin, horse chips into the ligament.

SM, how come in the US they do tattoo lips rather than brand their TBs? It must be a viable alternative for them to do it on so many horses.
 
The horse doesn't seem bothered at all with this freeze marking, he even had to do two separate stamps and the horse hardly moved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHC9QrxJkFU&feature=related

Hot branding, slightly more of a reaction but not as bad as you might think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvvjGTHDRg4


She said it didn't even hurt :D : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDhp7Xl5Ew
This fella doesn't know if it hurt :rolleyes: : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6QWmdngaSk&playnext=1&list=PLA1AD8ED540AAD04C
 
My British Hanovarian filly was hot branded last year at the regional show, tbh i wasnt that bothered about it however i didnt really choose for her to be branded.
But Having seen how quickly it was done & just how quickly it healed im even less bothered about it as long as it is done by someone who is highly experienced.

My filly stood in a headcollar & didnt seem to feel it, by day 3 it was as if she had never been branded, @ 7 days old, no swelling or crusting. Very clean job done.

I personally have had more issues with freezebranding, i really cannot see the differance myself. Just because it's cold does not mean it doesnt burn it does, it also took a lot longer to heal.
 
cptrayes said:
Have you ever burnt yourself with an iron, and had a wart frozen off? The two do not compare.
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I have burnt myself (by accident by the way!) and yes it did hurt.

Have also had a wart frozen off (on my foot) and while it didn't hurt at the time of the freezing, the hour or two afterwards when my foot was 'coming back to life' was screaming agony.

Of the two I'd say the burn was less painful all round.
 
Haven't read all the comments but, is freezemarking less painful? or docking dogs? similar to having an injection or a tooth out for us? Sometimes it is necessary and the pain is quickly forgotten
 
JessnGeorge said:
Haven't read all the comments but, is freezemarking less painful? or docking dogs? similar to having an injection or a tooth out for us? Sometimes it is necessary and the pain is quickly forgotten
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This is my point. Branding of high class warmbloods is clearly completely unnecessary or KWPN, recognised as the highest breed standards in the world, with branded German warmbloods dual graded as KWPN for the cachet that it gives them, would do it.

Why do something that is clearly painful for some horses even if most don't notice it much, if it is completely unnecessary?

I have to say that I was very surprised by how little the Hanoverian foals in the YouTube video I watched noticed it being done. I'd like to see an independent video of more foals though.

Good luck at the dentist Millreef.
 
SmilingMadly said:
Does it really take a rocket scientist to work out the impracticalities of tattooing the underside of a horses lip? Also, it's not exactly a visible deterrent!



I have no idea how big the chips are that are put in cats (why would I?). Perhaps you should google the size of the needles used to chip... IMO there are enough needle shy animals as it is...!
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Well it's as clear as the nose on my face from your last paragraph that you didn't read my post, isn't it?????? "perhaps you should Google......" You didn't read the bit which said I already had , and that the chip was the size of a grain of rice, obviously, even though you quoted it in your post.

You seem also to be unaware of the technology for number tattooing animals. The entire number is constructed out of pins in a punch like a date stamp. The pins are inked. The whole number is punched in one swift movement, over and done with. It is completely practical to tattoo horses in this way, and, again, if you had bothered to read the original post you would have found out that racehorses in the US are so tattooed.


Finishing on branding again though, why do people use the justification that passports can be faked when any blacksmith (not farrier, blacksmith) could fake a brand easily.

And why do something potentially painful and upsetting to a high class warmblood which is clearly not necessary?
 
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maggiesmum said:
So branding an expensively bred warmblood has nothing to do with status??? Do they brand the less well bred ones? And if it has has no relation to status that would suggest its meaningless so why bother? and in that case why do people advertise a horse as branded??

Freezemarking is just as painful as hot branding - Now thats a ridiculous statement!!

I know lets test the theory - if it doesn't hurt surely you'll be happy to volunteer to try them both and report back on whether they do indeed hurt the same?
And as a bonus if a computer bug wipes out all the NHS and social security records then we'll still know who you are won't we??
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I stand by my comments as I HAVE had experience of both - have you?

As for your last paragraph, totally irrelevant and not a suitable analogy, but as both hurt why on earth would I volunteer to have EITHER done?
 
freeze branding does of course require the purchasing and storage of liquid nitrogen.. more expensive than hot coals.
 
cptrayes said:
I have to say that I was very surprised by how little the Hanoverian foals in the YouTube video I watched noticed it being done. I'd like to see an independent video of more foals though.
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I don't think many breeders would bother to take the time to video their foals being branded as it is such a non-event in terms of reactions from the foals. Mine are branded, at the same time as many many other foals, and the most I've ever seen a foal react was flicking his tail as he would have done had an irritating fly landed on him.

Your horse will definitely have been branded in one go.
 
Sportznight said:
So it's only a problem in High Class Warmbloods then?

As for the grain or rice thing, there are many different types of rice, with differing sizes of grain :D
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What's your issue here exactly Sportznight? Because if you are just looking to keep an argument going you've come to the right place :)

I have a direct comparison of two horses in my yard, bred almost equally in terms of quality and from different breed societies. One is branded, one is not. THAT is the basis of my argument, that it is clear that it is unnecessary because differing breed society methods show it to be unnecessary. So why do it?

As for lower grade horses - are they ever branded unless they are wild-living herds in multiple ownership? In that situation, I think hot branding is the least of several "evils", though that is too strong a word to use.

Are you aware of any other groups of horses in Europe that are branded, other than wild herds and graded horses?

It doesn't matter what size the grain of rice is, cats, dogs, horses seem to have very little problem with the injection of a microchip. So what's your point there?
 
Spring Feather said:
I don't think many breeders would bother to take the time to video their foals being branded as it is such a non-event in terms of reactions from the foals. Mine are branded, at the same time as many many other foals, and the most I've ever seen a foal react was flicking his tail as he would have done had an irritating fly landed on him.

Your horse will definitely have been branded in one go.
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The 18 is slightly out of alignment, and not as deep (I was unaware that it was even there until his winter coat shed, and he is thin coated) as the main brand. I'd be surprised if it was all done at once.

Video taken by owners would not be independent, that would require someone unconnected with the industry to take a non-stop unedited film of a large branding session.

I am please to hear how many owners foals had no problem with it though, so thanks for that.
 
I haven't read the 10 pages of replies as yet, but thought Iwuld just add that exmoor ponies are generally branded, on the shoulder with the exmoor star and the herd number, and on the quaters with their personal number. Thats three brands on a very small pony foal.

The arguement being that it is for ID purposes which is utter rubbish - anyone ever tried to read one of these brands? Most ponies brands can be seen in their summer coat, although you will be lucky to be able to read them, and in the winter coat, youwouldn;t even know they were there, and given that the ponies on the moor are wild, you wouldn;t get close enough anyway!

I could go on but will stop now.

Any branding should be made illegal.
 
I'm just finding it amusing how aerated you seem to be :D Yet you are the one with the sensationalist thread title :rolleyes: Do you read the Daily Mail?

Yes, I can see you have this direct comparison :D Having held foals (Oldenburgs/Hannos/Traks/etc) for branding, as well as having dealings with hill/semi feral ponies when branded - I personally have no issue with either :)

No I am not :D

I picked up on the point you were making back at SM, as I think you missed their point (at least the way I took it). The chips used in TB's are the size of a large grain of rice and it's the size of the needle necessary that is the issue - at least that is how I read it :) Personally I can see that arguement, re. needle shy horses. One of mine for instance - you'd simply NEVER chip her, even sedated!

ETA, I mentioned the Tattooing last night, to throw in another way of IDing into the mix. Perhaps I should also have included hoof branding? Though this is also impractical, as they grow out as the hoof grows.
 
I haven't read through the whole thread. However, there seemed to be some debate as to whether hot or cold branding was mist humane / effective. (sorry if this has already been discussed at length: I repeat that I haven't read most of the thread :) ) There are numerous videos of both types which can be found on youtube, which seem to demonstrate that cold branding, or freezemarking, causes discomfort while hot branding causes a lot more pain. I am going completely on what I have seen in the videos, as I have no experience of this. Certainly from these though (and I watched a lot :( ) it would appear that cold branding causes much less discomfort for the horse.

Cold branding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIplJparoN4

Hot branding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7kiQVIYIcc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QwesW0akdY

Again I stress that I am going totally on the videos I have seen and have no experience of this.
 
My best freind is German and I'm pretty sure her daughter has so far got to 4 years old without being burned, maybe because she's half English? I shall speak to my friend this evening and ask if her parents ever tried to set fire to her. Thank you for this thread, I shall try and me more sensitive with my German friend, is this why she kept offering me cigarettes last night..?
 
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