rara007
Well-Known Member
Now dogs in hot cars (or even mid temperature) is up there with serious welfare concerns!
Why do horses have rugs on when owners are in t-shirts?
- Thread starter Pingu42
- Start date
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Right, so where is the difference in putting a dog in a car on a 28 degree day, than putting a dog in a woolly jumper and taking it on a walk on a 28 degree hot day? Yes, the car will reach higher temps, but the dog will be mainly still. Walking the dog (a small dog who has to keep up with an adult female who walks briskly) with the woolly jumper on is highly likely to take it to temps very similar IMO and it's also going to dehydrate quicker too.
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
So we have went from horses in rugs, to dogs in jumpers and now dogs in cars? Gotta love HHO, 
Dogs left in cars is a welfare issue, horses in rugs and dogs in jumpers is a personal choice, surely one can see the difference? We have no right to decide on the wardrobe of someone else's horse, I've had someone call the SSPCA on me for my horse wearing a UV fly rug in summer, they came out, looked at him laughed a little and went away. Hence my interest in finding a convicted or proven case of abuse through wearing a rug.
Dogs left in cars is a welfare issue, horses in rugs and dogs in jumpers is a personal choice, surely one can see the difference? We have no right to decide on the wardrobe of someone else's horse, I've had someone call the SSPCA on me for my horse wearing a UV fly rug in summer, they came out, looked at him laughed a little and went away. Hence my interest in finding a convicted or proven case of abuse through wearing a rug.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
So we have went from horses in rugs, to dogs in jumpers and now dogs in cars? Gotta love HHO,
Dogs left in cars is a welfare issue, horses in rugs and dogs in jumpers is a personal choice, surely one can see the difference? We have no right to decide on the wardrobe of someone else's horse, I've had someone call the SSPCA on me for my horse wearing a UV fly rug in summer, they came out, looked at him laughed a little and went away. Hence my interest in finding a convicted or proven case of abuse through wearing a rug.
Oh for goodness sake. You may well have had someone call them out for a UV fly rug...what's that got to do with actual rugging? Clearly a UV fly rug is no issue whatsoever in any temp. Are you seriously saying that having a horse or dog or any animal in ANY temp rugged up (in proper rugs now, which effect temperature) is not anyone's business, and it's not a welfare concern?
I despair with the horse world.
Do your own research about the cases. I assume you have google. In any case, does it REALLY have to take a prosecution case in order for people to know what good welfare is? Sad times. Clearly many people can see a difference in dogs in hot cars, and over rugging animals. which is worrying.
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Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
B
yes I do have google but I have yet to find a proven case hence asking for one, many times I have been given information which I myself have been unable to find, again hence my request
Is a fly rug not a rug? Who is to say that the person who reported my horse was or wasn't horsey? I assumed not but perhaps if they shared the opinion that we have a say in how others rug their animals, as you seem to have, they thought that my horse was perhaps sweating and uncomfortable since he was ' standing with his head down fully rugged in the hot sun' as was the statement given.
You have said you wouldn't immediately judge my horse for having a rug on but yet in the same breath you are judging others? That's the problem with the horse world and which makes me despair is the opinion that you have the God given right to decide on the welfare of animals who are clearly well loved and looked after when there are many out there who are not and need more thought and help than a horse in a field in 12 degrees ( example as that is what it was here today) with a light weight on.
So you are not the only one who despairs, however this thread is helping me through an insomnia attack rather nicely along with a nice bottle of wine
yes I do have google but I have yet to find a proven case hence asking for one, many times I have been given information which I myself have been unable to find, again hence my request
Is a fly rug not a rug? Who is to say that the person who reported my horse was or wasn't horsey? I assumed not but perhaps if they shared the opinion that we have a say in how others rug their animals, as you seem to have, they thought that my horse was perhaps sweating and uncomfortable since he was ' standing with his head down fully rugged in the hot sun' as was the statement given.
You have said you wouldn't immediately judge my horse for having a rug on but yet in the same breath you are judging others? That's the problem with the horse world and which makes me despair is the opinion that you have the God given right to decide on the welfare of animals who are clearly well loved and looked after when there are many out there who are not and need more thought and help than a horse in a field in 12 degrees ( example as that is what it was here today) with a light weight on.
So you are not the only one who despairs, however this thread is helping me through an insomnia attack rather nicely along with a nice bottle of wine
rara007
Well-Known Member
TBF my ponies sweated up in their fly rugs (when abroad and stabled) 
I don't think we need to get too worried BlackBeastie, the welfare societies and I assume the law (or whatever it is that gives the police the right to break in) have also noticed the difference between placing your animal somewhere with an ambient temperature way above body temperature therefore leaving no mechanism to cool down, and coats/rugs.
I don't think we need to get too worried BlackBeastie, the welfare societies and I assume the law (or whatever it is that gives the police the right to break in) have also noticed the difference between placing your animal somewhere with an ambient temperature way above body temperature therefore leaving no mechanism to cool down, and coats/rugs.
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
TBF my ponies sweated up in their fly rugs (when abroad and stabled)
I don't think we need to get too worried BlackBeastie, the welfare societies and I assume the law (or whatever it is that gives the police the right to break in) have also noticed the difference between placing your animal somewhere with an ambient temperature way above body temperature therefore leaving no mechanism to cool down, and coats/rugs.
Thank goodness someone has, as by some of these rug threads it seems that knowing your animal just doesn't seem to be relevant these days as long as joe blow drive by has an opinion.
rara007
Well-Known Member
Maybe it'll go out on a broadcast for us every morning that we have to follow regardless that we have a 13YO italian greyhound or 2YO Akita, or Welsh cob, or elderly riding pony. Today animals must be in rugs of XYZ weight until x hour, then they must be in YXZ weight. That'll cure us mere mortals from having to actually look at our animals and make rational decisions.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
B
yes I do have google but I have yet to find a proven case hence asking for one, many times I have been given information which I myself have been unable to find, again hence my request
Is a fly rug not a rug? Who is to say that the person who reported my horse was or wasn't horsey? I assumed not but perhaps if they shared the opinion that we have a say in how others rug their animals, as you seem to have, they thought that my horse was perhaps sweating and uncomfortable since he was ' standing with his head down fully rugged in the hot sun' as was the statement given.
You have said you wouldn't immediately judge my horse for having a rug on but yet in the same breath you are judging others? That's the problem with the horse world and which makes me despair is the opinion that you have the God given right to decide on the welfare of animals who are clearly well loved and looked after when there are many out there who are not and need more thought and help than a horse in a field in 12 degrees ( example as that is what it was here today) with a light weight on.
So you are not the only one who despairs, however this thread is helping me through an insomnia attack rather nicely along with a nice bottle of wine
Excuse me, would you like to look through my posts on this thread and tell me where I have judged you on rugging your horse? Or anyone else generally, other than saying someone rugging a yorkie in 28 degrees is a concern? My point was, that anyone who has concerns about a fly rug causing heat concerns is clearly misinformed, because they obviously don't know what a fly rug is and what it does. If you go back through this thread you will see I haven't actually commented on rugging horses in general, other than what my own horse has. I merely commented on the fact that yes, in some cases, rugging of ANY animal can be a welfare concern. Where the hell have I ever commented about horses in lightweights in 12 degrees? Seriously, get a grip!
I always find it so strange how some people on here react so badly to anyone making ANY comment about over rugging.
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Moomin1
Well-Known Member
TBF my ponies sweated up in their fly rugs (when abroad and stabled)
I don't think we need to get too worried BlackBeastie, the welfare societies and I assume the law (or whatever it is that gives the police the right to break in) have also noticed the difference between placing your animal somewhere with an ambient temperature way above body temperature therefore leaving no mechanism to cool down, and coats/rugs.
Lol yes, it's hard to grasp for some people, but horses will also sweat in fly rugs. Just think of those poor ******* who are rugged in the same temps in mediumweights...
Funnily enough, hard though it is to imagine, there are people in the world who over rug/under rug, don't give a toss, don't check on their horse etc etc. There are also those who do all the opposite. Why people cannot simply understand that concept I can't grasp.
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Pingu42
Well-Known Member
For god's sake! When I started this thread, I was commenting on the weather during the day in the West Midlands which on Friday and yesterday was 17 degrees, warm and sunny. It was like this from at least 8.30 - 6pm when I and most other people I saw were in t-shirts and some poor horses were in TURNOUT rugs (not fly rugs) According to most people replying to this thread, this lovely warm weather has missed them out so I'm not talking about the weather by you but the 17 degrees WARM and SUNNY weather by me! Is it really fair to put a turnout rug on a horse with HAIR in 17 degrees of warmth and sun?
el_Snowflakes
Well-Known Member
My guess would be that the owners have not been able to get to their horses -probably busy/at work etc. & haven't been able to change them. This time of year is frustrating, especially here in Scotland. One day it's a heatwave next day it's full on winter weather!
JulesRules
Well-Known Member
No its not fair.
A healthy unclipped horse can regulate it's body temperature effectively down to about zero on a dry day without too much wind. Windy and wet weather will cause a horse to use much more energy to regulate itself. A healthy unclipped horse with access to shelter (natural or man made ) should be able to manage fine throughout a UK winter although obviously they will need to intake much more energy.
For some horses such as less hardy types and poor doers, rugging offers a more practical solution to upping feeds levels to what the horse would need to maintain weight.
However, many owners just rug for the sake of rugging, or because they feel guilty about leaving a horse outside in what is after all the horses natural environment . I do think we need more education as to when horses actually need rugging.
As for people who say it's down to the owner, yes there may be times when an outsider is unaware of health issues etc
A healthy unclipped horse can regulate it's body temperature effectively down to about zero on a dry day without too much wind. Windy and wet weather will cause a horse to use much more energy to regulate itself. A healthy unclipped horse with access to shelter (natural or man made ) should be able to manage fine throughout a UK winter although obviously they will need to intake much more energy.
For some horses such as less hardy types and poor doers, rugging offers a more practical solution to upping feeds levels to what the horse would need to maintain weight.
However, many owners just rug for the sake of rugging, or because they feel guilty about leaving a horse outside in what is after all the horses natural environment . I do think we need more education as to when horses actually need rugging.
As for people who say it's down to the owner, yes there may be times when an outsider is unaware of health issues etc
JulesRules
Well-Known Member
Sorry last message posted before I was ready and can't edit.
Last bit Should have said
As for people who say it's down to the owner, yes there may be times when an outsider is unaware of health issues etc but we all think it's okay to speak out about harsh bits and training aids being used incorrectly causing a horse discomfort, so why not rugs?
I would just say, next time you go to rug your horse ask yourself if the rug is for the horse or yo? Also think about when you will next be at the yard and check the weather forecast for that period.
If in doubt have a chat with your vet about rugging requirements. to rug your horse ask yourself if the rug is for the horse or yo? Also think about when you will next be at the yard and check the weather forecast for that period.
If in doubt have a chat with your vet about rugging requirements.
Last bit Should have said
As for people who say it's down to the owner, yes there may be times when an outsider is unaware of health issues etc but we all think it's okay to speak out about harsh bits and training aids being used incorrectly causing a horse discomfort, so why not rugs?
I would just say, next time you go to rug your horse ask yourself if the rug is for the horse or yo? Also think about when you will next be at the yard and check the weather forecast for that period.
If in doubt have a chat with your vet about rugging requirements. to rug your horse ask yourself if the rug is for the horse or yo? Also think about when you will next be at the yard and check the weather forecast for that period.
If in doubt have a chat with your vet about rugging requirements.
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
I agree with Moomin -checking on your horse once in 24hours and subsequently leaving them in that rug for the duration is poor management in the least and I'm shocked people think it is ok.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Yup I don't get the 24 hours thing, I also think my vet would look at me in a very strange way if I asked them about rugging..... and would likely say it depends.
JulesRules
Well-Known Member
If your vet looks at you strangely if you ask about rugging maybe you need a new vet??
ester
Not slacking multitasking
No.
I just think they would expect me to my own horse better than they do, on the basis that they have only seen him to vaccinate and jab for mites since we moved. Previous vet I knew well having done quite a lot of work experience with him at one time and he would look at me strangely because he would expect me to know what is essentially basic husbandry.
I think the thing is that we aren't talking about people that are unsure and therefore think they need advice from anyone anyway.
I just think they would expect me to my own horse better than they do, on the basis that they have only seen him to vaccinate and jab for mites since we moved. Previous vet I knew well having done quite a lot of work experience with him at one time and he would look at me strangely because he would expect me to know what is essentially basic husbandry.
I think the thing is that we aren't talking about people that are unsure and therefore think they need advice from anyone anyway.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
What a great read this was.
My own thoughts on this subject based on my time at livery are that owners who do their best for their horses generally get rugging their particular animal right (bar the odd day when the weather forecast isn't accurate and they're probably stuck at work worrying about their poor neddy being too hot/cold). But the owners who don't really give a crap do cause suffering due to over-rugging - I've seen it. In fact I and the other liveries had to sort the horses I'm thinking of out several times. Not just rugging issues, but one horse was also left with no food or water in it's stable while the owner had an all day lie in etc... Not really appropriate when your horse is on DIY.
I wouldn't like to choose a rug for a 24 hour time period though (I do understand that the horse is checked twice), the weather can vary so much during that timeframe and what is right for the night can be very wrong for the day.
My own thoughts on this subject based on my time at livery are that owners who do their best for their horses generally get rugging their particular animal right (bar the odd day when the weather forecast isn't accurate and they're probably stuck at work worrying about their poor neddy being too hot/cold). But the owners who don't really give a crap do cause suffering due to over-rugging - I've seen it. In fact I and the other liveries had to sort the horses I'm thinking of out several times. Not just rugging issues, but one horse was also left with no food or water in it's stable while the owner had an all day lie in etc... Not really appropriate when your horse is on DIY.
I wouldn't like to choose a rug for a 24 hour time period though (I do understand that the horse is checked twice), the weather can vary so much during that timeframe and what is right for the night can be very wrong for the day.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Just reporting in , I am off to put my horses rugs on .
I am wearing jeans a tshirt and a fleece and boots ,MrGS is in shorts , sandals and polo shirt .
Not sure what to do ?
I am wearing jeans a tshirt and a fleece and boots ,MrGS is in shorts , sandals and polo shirt .
Not sure what to do ?
Fun Times
Well-Known Member
Take your boots and fleece off and pop them on the horse. Simple stuff this goldenstar.
BlackRider
Well-Known Member
Thought of this thread when I was walking the 2 miles to the stables today (I like to walk at the weekends), I was wearing my jods, T Shirt, fleece lined blouson, and passed several people wearing shorts and t shirts!
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Agree. Tbh, I'd get out of horses if my time/finances/work hours dictated that.
FWIW, we've had the warm days/cold nights round here this past week, goodness, it's September, who knew?! Been sitting in baking sunshine most of today whilst FJing at a BE event, despite having to scrape ice off the car windscreen at 7.30am!
orionstar
Well-Known Member
I've done the fly rug light weight shuffle several times these last few weeks. He's not clipped and the conclusion is he's out without a rug until it gets bad. He doesn't leak water, he could do with a few pounds shifting, but for those who have clipped, you've removed the horses natural coat, their heat regulator and water diverter, so if it's 19 degrees like we had in the North East today then they'll cook, with or without a clip with a rug on.
Regandal
Well-Known Member
An extreme case, other factors in there too:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/three-year-ban-horse-owner-hot-rugs-robert-fisk-499517
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/three-year-ban-horse-owner-hot-rugs-robert-fisk-499517
Spottyappy
Well-Known Member
I'm simply amazed at how many people here seem to think they need to rug! Bar clipped out and old, I don't understand why everyone else is rugging? Am I missing something? It's mostly mild here and dry. The horse won't melt if it does rain, either, to the best of my knowledge.
All of mine are out 24/7 and not rugged. They are all fat, and warm, not especially hairy yet so can enjoy shivering a few pounds off, I conclude! This is 5 of them, all naked, from a couple of Welsh cobs to a part TB.
All of mine are out 24/7 and not rugged. They are all fat, and warm, not especially hairy yet so can enjoy shivering a few pounds off, I conclude! This is 5 of them, all naked, from a couple of Welsh cobs to a part TB.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
My horses are rugged because they are working so they clean and washed to help keep them cool while working .
Because my fields are quite exposed to winds off the North Sea .
Because we have had frost and it's been cold in the mornings 3 degrees when I looked the other morning .
Because I want them to be dry first thing in the morning.
Because my fields are quite exposed to winds off the North Sea .
Because we have had frost and it's been cold in the mornings 3 degrees when I looked the other morning .
Because I want them to be dry first thing in the morning.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. What do you mean they are washed?
Sounds like you are somewhere very cold and exposed.
c2b
Well-Known Member
Pingu42
Well-Known Member
Haha! Love it! I think this sums it up! If an owner feels cold then they think their horse must feel cold too! Thank you all those normal, sensible people that agree that horses should not be wearing rugs when it is 17 degrees, warm and sunny! There were times during this thread when I thought that maybe it was me who was wrong as so many people disagreed with me!