Why do people always know better than the vet?

[Podgelover]

Not sure if this helps the OP or anyone else but my vet recommended simply scrubbing with hibiscrub and plastering in Sudo Crème. At our new yard 4 out of my 5 horses have got mud fever this winter, but caught very early, this treatment cleared it up within a few days thank goodness. I've used this method for years on and off at previous yards...

I find it incredible how so many vets have different methods, I began using hibiscrub and it had no effect other than turn my bright ginger boys feet yellow and it was really diluted and when I told my vet he was like don't use that!

The vet im with, (I see one of two vets) one told me to leave a wound uncovered in the day and then covered at night, then it went proud and I got a vet out and was sent the other and he thought I'd been really stupid to leave it uncovered in the day!

 

[Shilasdair]

Not sure if this helps the OP or anyone else but my vet recommended simply scrubbing with hibiscrub and plastering in Sudo Crème. At our new yard 4 out of my 5 horses have got mud fever this winter, but caught very early, this treatment cleared it up within a few days thank goodness. I've used this method for years on and off at previous yards...

I think that's the sort of knowledge that comes with experience (but do dilute the Hibiscrub or it can irritate), but there are so many new/novice horse owners around who won't listen to advice...

S

 

[Shilasdair]

I find it incredible how so many vets have different methods, I began using hibiscrub and it had no effect other than turn my bright ginger boys feet yellow and when I told my vet he was like don't use that!

The vet im with, (I see one of two vets) one told me to leave a wound uncovered in the day and then covered at night, then it went proud and I got a vet out and was sent the other and he thought I'd been really stupid to leave it uncovered in the day!

This might explain why some people do know better than the vet then!
S

 

[Podgelover]

Why wouldn't you call a vet out of hours for mud fever?
Because vets are humans with lives, their time is precious, and maybe, just maybe someone has a real equine emergency which needs them.
S

Oh I just meant why wouldn't you get them out in general. I would necessarily get them out of hours for mud fever no, but I am not in OP situation. Mud fever is a funny one, there are horses on my yard who get one patch the owner does nothing and it goes away, where as with my boy, I tired everything and it just wouldn't clear up!

 

[mjcssjw2]

I called my vets 3 times over a weekend about my horse - I have been with the practice for over 10 years and certainly haven't had an emergency call out for at least 5 years.
I described what I saw and said I thought they should come, they said they didn't need to it was most likely mudfever, he was getting worse between my visits to see him (at least twice daily), on my third telephone call I texted them pictures and they still didn't want to come, I ended up boxing him up and taking him to another practice, he actually had cellulitis and was in a right state by the time someone saw him, this happend from saturday morning to a sunday afternoon. Sometimes things can get properly out of hand very quickly.

 

[MyDogIsAnIdiot]

I think that's the sort of knowledge that comes with experience (but do dilute the Hibiscrub or it can irritate), but there are so many new/novice horse owners around who won't listen to advice...

S

As a novice horse owner, may I ask for some advice? I been told conflicting things about using Hibiscrub - do, don't, your horses leg might fall off etc. but do keep some 'in stock' in case it's needed. A very old-school vet told me to use the diluted Hibiscrub to soften the mud fever scabs and then pick them off, but new vets from the same practice say not to touch the scabs until they're ready to come off.

So, which is it? Pick or leave them alone? We're mud-fever free this year but it's always useful to know things like this.

 

[Podgelover]

As a novice horse owner, may I ask for some advice? I been told conflicting things about using Hibiscrub - do, don't, your horses leg might fall off etc. but do keep some 'in stock' in case it's needed. A very old-school vet told me to use the diluted Hibiscrub to soften the mud fever scabs and then pick them off, but new vets from the same practice say not to touch the scabs until they're ready to come off.

So, which is it? Pick or leave them alone? We're mud-fever free this year but it's always useful to know things like this.

I tried hibiscrub and it personally didn't work for me, I really think it depends on the horse, there's no harm trying it but it is known to strip natural oils too, so I've been told.)
I listened to the advice of don't pick scabs off from other horse owners, and it didn't get any better so I spoke to my vet who said pick them off - i started picking scabs off, and when I then applied the cream my horse was prescribed by the vet it cleared up really fast. I actually think baby shampoo and warm water works just as well as hibiscrub to soften scabs. I also wet poultice any stiff ones to loosen them- but if they still don't come off leave them until they have soften naturally. I was told you need to have a cream to put on over the area to avoid infection. Also towel dry feet every night!

As I said though, I do believe each horse is different and its a trial and error of which works for you two...

 

[Shilasdair]

I

As a novice horse owner, may I ask for some advice? I been told conflicting things about using Hibiscrub - do, don't, your horses leg might fall off etc. but do keep some 'in stock' in case it's needed. A very old-school vet told me to use the diluted Hibiscrub to soften the mud fever scabs and then pick them off, but new vets from the same practice say not to touch the scabs until they're ready to come off.

So, which is it? Pick or leave them alone? We're mud-fever free this year but it's always useful to know things like this.

Take up golf or crochet.
S

 

[MyDogIsAnIdiot]

I tried hibiscrub and it personally didn't work for me, I really think it depends on the horse, there's no harm trying it but it is known to strip natural oils too, so I've been told.)
I listened to the advice of don't pick scabs off from other horse owners, and it didn't get any better so I spoke to my vet who said pick them off - i started picking scabs off, and when I then applied the cream my horse was prescribed by the vet it cleared up really fast. I actually think baby shampoo and warm water works just as well as hibiscrub to soften scabs. I also wet poultice any stiff ones to loosen them- but if they still don't come off leave them until they have soften naturally. I was told you need to have a cream to put on over the area to avoid infection. Also towel dry feet every night!

As I said though, I do believe each horse is different and its a trial and error of which works for you two...

Thanks, that's really helpful . Interesting how different things work for different people/horses!

I

Take up golf or crochet.
S

Will do. Thank you. Anyone want to buy my horse? All tack, rugs, trailer etc as I'm clearly such a bad owner.

 

[BeingKate]

I tried hibiscrub and it personally didn't work for me, I really think it depends on the horse, there's no harm trying it but it is known to strip natural oils too, so I've been told.)
I listened to the advice of don't pick scabs off from other horse owners, and it didn't get any better so I spoke to my vet who said pick them off - i started picking scabs off, and when I then applied the cream my horse was prescribed by the vet it cleared up really fast. I actually think baby shampoo and warm water works just as well as hibiscrub to soften scabs. I also wet poultice any stiff ones to loosen them- but if they still don't come off leave them until they have soften naturally. I was told you need to have a cream to put on over the area to avoid infection. Also towel dry feet every night!

As I said though, I do believe each horse is different and its a trial and error of which works for you two...

Like you say it's trial and error, but remember warm water will open up the pores of the skin, allowing more bacteria to enter the skin and increased risk of the mudfever developing around that area. Cold water is best even though it's most unpleasant on your hands in the winter!

 

[BeingKate]

As a novice horse owner, may I ask for some advice? I been told conflicting things about using Hibiscrub - do, don't, your horses leg might fall off etc. but do keep some 'in stock' in case it's needed. A very old-school vet told me to use the diluted Hibiscrub to soften the mud fever scabs and then pick them off, but new vets from the same practice say not to touch the scabs until they're ready to come off.

So, which is it? Pick or leave them alone? We're mud-fever free this year but it's always useful to know things like this.

For me, when I scrub the legs I don't actively pick them but the scabs sort of come off when I scrub. Those that are properly clinging on I won't actively go out to remove as it'll be quite sore - the sudo crème as well as helping to heal, softens the scab so it comes off more quickly. When the scabs are left on I believe they can often trap bacteria underneath them which can make the mudfever worse, but equally you don't want to be picking off skin and making the horse sore... if that makes sense...

 

[Podgelover]

Like you say it's trial and error, but remember warm water will open up the pores of the skin, allowing more bacteria to enter the skin and increased risk of the mudfever developing around that area. Cold water is best even though it's most unpleasant on your hands in the winter!

Thanks! will bare that in mind for future - to be honest it hadn't really crossed my mind that the warm water will open pores!

 

[Shilasdair]

Thanks, that's really helpful . Interesting how different things work for different people/horses!

Will do. Thank you. Anyone want to buy my horse? All tack, rugs, trailer etc as I'm clearly such a bad owner.

Is it a cob?
S

P.S. I agree with BeingKate on treatment - Hibiscrub is better than other shampoos as it kills bacteria, but dilute and rinsed off well. The bacterium Dermatophilus congolensis or some such, thrives in wet warm conditions, so dry the legs off and keep them as dry as possible - putting sudocrem on only to block more mud.

 

[Annagain]

I have seen a friend have to call the emergency vet out for mud fever - or rather complications from mud fever. Her horse had a tiny patch, less than the size of a 10p piece. She was dealing with it as she had always done (horse is prone to it and it has never escalated before) but despite being very small and her doing everything right in terms of treating it, it turned into cellulitis. It only needs one minute cell of bacteria to get in and it spreads like wildfire. We were watching his leg swell literally by the second as we waited for the vet. When the vet arrived he said another hour and he'd have had to have been admitted to hospital for intravenous antib's and pain relief and may even have died as cellulitis can quickly lead to septicaemia. As it is, he was back 8 hours later for more injections and again the following morning. Having had something similar happen to me when an insect bite (tiny, tiny wound) got infected, I know how awful he must have been feeling poor thing. I hope you don't think I'm a dirty c*w for not washing my arm properly!

Belittling someone for failing to deal with mud fever in a way that prevents the vet being needed isn't helpful. At best it shows a misunderstanding of how quickly mud fever can lead to cellulitis regardless of treatment and at worst it will stop people asking for advice perhaps when they really need it for fear of being jumped on. I'm sure vets would far rather they were called - even on a weekend - than have a horse die because they weren't.

 

[tubby1]

I had a Y/O that used to laugh at us when we wanted to call the vet. She would give everything bute no matter what was wrong. I used to call the vet then tell her afterwards ��

 

[ribbons]

I think some people are misunderstanding what I and shilasdair are saying.
Of course mud fever will often require a vet. It can get really bad and need AB's and careful veterinary care.
The point I was making (and I think shilasdair) was that an emergency out of hours call out could have been avoided by getting a vet out on the Friday.
I'm sorry but after 40 plus years of horses, and several cases of serious mud fever (needing a vet) I have never seen it go from something and nothing to full blown emergency in the space of 48hrs. Therefore it was not a mild case of a bit of a scab on the Friday, and the mud fever clearly needed veterinary attention well before the weekend.
So often people "hope" the problem (not necessarily mud fever) will resolve itself without the expense of a vet, only to find it becomes critical out of hours and thus costs so much more.

With the benefit of experience, it becomes much easier to "know" when a vet is necessary and I'm not knocking anyone who calls one to soon or when all else fails, but its no use moaning about the cost of out of hours treatment when an earlier call could and should have been made.

 

[Charlie007]

We did know better than the vet once!!! We had a mare that went lame on a back leg. We thought stifle area, vet said no definitely lower down leg. No improvement so ended up with xray etc. Turns out it was stifle!!

Would usually trust vet tho!!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

If you are going to google, then copy and paste information about cellulitis from Equus magazine, at least copy it all.

'In horses, the predisposing factors for cellulitis are not completely understood, but poor hygiene, the bacterial population on the skin, decreased blood/lymphatic circulation and breaks in the skin are all thought to play a role...'

See more at: http://equusmagazine.com/article/the-cause-of-cellulitis-in-horses-8504#sthash.tlJiIDng.

So 'poor hygiene' and 'bacteria' then.
S

I accidentally omitted the link which is what I would (and should) normally have done. I tried to post it afterwards but for some reason I kept getting a greyed out box and then lunch was alas over and back to work I went Clearly I was quoting though hence the quote marks.

I like Equus magazine there are some really good articles, shame we don't get anything as useful in this country only the Your Horse dumbed down tripe.

I haven't had a horse with full-blown cellulitis thankfully, due to my vigilance I believe but have had swelling that looked like a tendon injury at first look and from a scab the size of a penny. He was treated with Doxycycline (Karidox). Unless you keep a horse in constantly and wounds completely covered you can't avoid exposure to bacteria.

Anyway I know you love a good wind-up so will leave it at that

 

[SusieT]

cellulitis can blow up v. easily from fri to sat. If you haven't seen it go up so quickly you may not realise how it can go from nothing to cellulitis.
Amazing that the OP is pointing out how annoying it is when people claim to know more than the vet.. yet so many posters are doing exactly that with no idea of the problem or why it needed a vet..

 

[Shilasdair]

Ribbons - yes, exactly that. And the OP did say 'mud fever' not 'cellulitis.

SussexbytheSea - I do indeed love a wind up. I can see exactly why you didn't include the link - that site is a swine to copy from/link to especially on an iPad.

And of course horse owners should get the vet for mudfever or whatever else they are concerned about - but try not to use the out of hours services unless you need them.
Everyone was new to horse owning once - but learn basic equine first aid, look at diseases when you have the chance, study basic horse anatomy, and learn to take TPR rates.

S

 

[minesadouble]

Ribbons - yes, exactly that. And the OP did say 'mud fever' not 'cellulitis.

SussexbytheSea - I do indeed love a wind up. I can see exactly why you didn't include the link - that site is a swine to copy from/link to especially on an iPad.

And of course horse owners should get the vet for mudfever or whatever else they are concerned about - but try not to use the out of hours services unless you need them.
Everyone was new to horse owning once - but learn basic equine first aid, look at diseases when you have the chance, study basic horse anatomy, and learn to take TPR rates.

S

I echo the sentiments of the above. Also try to find a good equine Vet from the outset and stick with him. My Vet is fab when I call whether out of hours or not. I will often say to him 'not sure if I need you to come out but.....' He will ask me the relevant questions, sometimes ask for a pic from my mobile and make a judgement on whether I need a call out or not.
I have been with my Vet for many years, none of my lot are insured for Vet bills because as a family we have 10 (never have 3 horsey children!!). My vet has on occasions said to me 'if horse was insured we would do XYZ but if this horse belonged to me I would do ABC... These are the pros and cons of each option and this is what each option will cost'. He then leaves the final choice to me. Over the years I believe he has saved me a fortune!

 

[Smogul]

I would only call a vet out of hours for an emergency, so I'm wondering how you let mud fever progress to the point where it becomes an acute medical emergency?
S

This was what I mean about not knowing anything about horse's clinical history. a) Horse is on rehab following surgery on left hind b) Horse was showing no signs of any problems on Friday evening but right leg was swollen and non-weight bearing by Saturday morning. Vet agreed with us it was essential that left hind was not taking all the weight at rear hence weekend visit, antibiotics and pain killers. It is quite likely recent surgery had lowered immune system and made him more likely to get infections which had to be promptly dealt with.

 

[Smogul]

Amazing that the OP is pointing out how annoying it is when people claim to know more than the vet.. yet so many posters are doing exactly that with no idea of the problem or why it needed a vet..

Yes, I admit this has made me laugh.

 

[baylover]

because don't you know being a horse owner for 20 years + is the equivalent to studying an equine science degree full time for 6 years and qualifying

 

[BeingKate]

This was what I mean about not knowing anything about horse's clinical history. a) Horse is on rehab following surgery on left hind b) Horse was showing no signs of any problems on Friday evening but right leg was swollen and non-weight bearing by Saturday morning. Vet agreed with us it was essential that left hind was not taking all the weight at rear hence weekend visit, antibiotics and pain killers. It is quite likely recent surgery had lowered immune system and made him more likely to get infections which had to be promptly dealt with.

Hope your horse is OK, doesn't sound pleasant Echinacea can help to support immunity, I fed it to the big lad when he went through a virussy patch, and took it myself when I was unwell, they also gave it to my lovely grandma when she was in remission from cancer - it's amazing stuff. Good luck with him

 

[Shilasdair]

L

This was what I mean about not knowing anything about horse's clinical history. a) Horse is on rehab following surgery on left hind b) Horse was showing no signs of any problems on Friday evening but right leg was swollen and non-weight bearing by Saturday morning. Vet agreed with us it was essential that left hind was not taking all the weight at rear hence weekend visit, antibiotics and pain killers. It is quite likely recent surgery had lowered immune system and made him more likely to get infections which had to be promptly dealt with.

That's not just mud fever, though, is it?

I sympathise - I suppress my horse's immune system, and when she got mud fever a couple of winters ago, I had a devil of a job getting rid of it.

It may be counterintuitive, but I find that I'm far better not washing her legs off when she comes in muddy, and brushing her off when it has dried.

S

 

[teddysheep]

Thanks, that's really helpful . Interesting how different things work for different people/horses!




Will do. Thank you. Anyone want to buy my horse? All tack, rugs, trailer etc as I'm clearly such a bad owner.

'Mydogisanidiot' (name!) I think it's great you are asking q's as a novice horse owner & no-one should shoot you down for it! Over the years with many horses & lots of boggy fields we've had lots of experiences with mud fever & it definitely depend on the horse. I've experimented with our Welshies with trimming the feathers right back & with some of them that has helped & with others its just made them worse. This year as an experiment I have tried leaving feather left on for protection as it simply prevents the mud entering the back of the pastern area/heel. I just spray hose the worst off & so far no mud fever at all. I do think sometimes constant washing/softening/abrasion of the skin via drying allows for more bacteria to enter...just my opinion!

 

[littleshetland]

I'ma bit late to this thread, and haven't read all the posts, but just replying to the OP. I have the utmost respect for most vets, but because I run a livery yard (have done for years) the different owners have different vets - and some are definitely better than others. To my surprise, I,ve given the correct diagnosis on a problem, and the vets have been proved wrong. Now I don't claim to be any kind of amazing expert on horses, I've just had a few years of being around horse on a daily basis, but when this happens a few times, it does make you wonder.... Having said that - I've been 'saved' on may occasions by vets who've turned up at the yard like knights in shining armour!

 

[Smogul]

L

That's not just mud fever, though, is it?

I sympathise - I suppress my horse's immune system, and when she got mud fever a couple of winters ago, I had a devil of a job getting rid of it.

It may be counterintuitive, but I find that I'm far better not washing her legs off when she comes in muddy, and brushing her off when it has dried.

S

Well, the vet described it as mud fever so I wasn't going to argue! Horse doesn't get its legs washed off normally so you can't blame that.