Why do people do this???

[stangs]

It gets my goat when i see young healthy horses in situations where their owners are scared to ride them and they are on a livery yard on individual postage stamp turnout, then stuck in a stable for 18 hrs a day with zero enrichment. Young horses basically denied any outlet. Especially geldings. They need to play.
They need companionship and movement.
These owners think they are looking after them, no expense spared. But the poor horses are bored out of their brains and utterly miserable. Not fair to them.

I’ll go a step further and say seeing horses on individual postage stamp turnout gets my goat, regardless of whether they’re worked or not.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

It gets my goat when i see young healthy horses in situations where their owners are scared to ride them and they are on a livery yard on individual postage stamp turnout, then stuck in a stable for 18 hrs a day with zero enrichment. Young horses basically denied any outlet. Especially geldings. They need to play.
They need companionship and movement.
These owners think they are looking after them, no expense spared. But the poor horses are bored out of their brains and utterly miserable. Not fair to them.

But in that situation, I'm not convinced that trudging round in circles for an hour, or dodging delivery vans on the road, with 70kg on their back would necessarily improve that lifestyle (3 hours of relaxed, off road hacking most days probably would!)

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

A few years ago I was at a yard & very few people actually rode. They'd come down, muck out & turn out & then sit around a table near the arena & drink coffee & bad mouth anyone using the arena. or going out on a hack. I was pleased to leave that place.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I’ll go a step further and say seeing horses on individual postage stamp turnout gets my goat, regardless of whether they’re worked or not.

Sometimes it is unavoidable though.

Mime is on a postage stamp for some of the time in the Spring/Summer/early Autumn as he's metabolically challenged.

He's next to the herd but not in with them when in his 'postage stamp' - which is probably about 20x40 so plenty big enough to have a canter etc in.

But juggling somewhere that can accommodate his metabolic needs, isn't rich ex-dairy grass, has geniune AYTO and won't keep in when raining, looks like it might rain or the ground is muddy, has good hacking etc etc is SO hard.

Is it perfect? No. Would I like to change things? Absolutely. But my other options are let him suffer in pain on grass which I refuse to do to him, keep him stabled the majority of the Spring-Summer which is worse than a postage stamp IMO or have him on individual turn out all year.

It's easy to get your goat up about things but lots of us are just trying our best with the options we have.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Sometimes it is unavoidable though.

Mime is on a postage stamp for some of the time in the Spring/Summer/early Autumn as he's metabolically challenged.

He's next to the herd but not in with them when in his 'postage stamp' - which is probably about 20x40 so plenty big enough to have a canter etc in.

But juggling somewhere that can accommodate his metabolic needs, isn't rich ex-dairy grass, has geniune AYTO and won't keep in when raining, looks like it might rain or the ground is muddy, has good hacking etc etc is SO hard.

Is it perfect? No. Would I like to change things? Absolutely. But my other options are let him suffer in pain on grass which I refuse to do to him, keep him stabled the majority of the Spring-Summer which is worse IMO or have him on individual turn out all year.

It's easy to get your goat up about things but lots of us are just trying our best with the options we have.

But presumably, your boy has more enrichment than just a small tuft of land to stand on, month in and month out? I think it's more the horses that are left for months on end on such turnout, with no other exercise or enrichment to their lives that people have an issue with.

 

[Goldenstar]

Well, duh (meant in a nice way...). It certainly wasn't the horse's idea.

I am imagining them on the steppe going Dudes look at those humans trudging along on on two legs dragging there stuff behind them, let’s pop down there and give them a hand .

 

[Goldenstar]

I think when an unridden horse is in a paddock the size of a small arena then you have to question if It’s having its needs met if it’s like that on an ongoing basis .
If that horse can’t be lead about daily covering a decent distance or even better led from another horse it’s not getting it’s needs for movement fulfilled .

 

[MuddyMonster]

But presumably, your boy has more enrichment than just a small tuft of land to stand on, month in and month out? I think it's more the horses that are left for months on end on such turnout, with no other exercise or enrichment to their lives that people have an issue with.

He does, yes.

But the poster I was quoting specifically mentioned they'd go further and that 'it got their goat' regardless of whether the horse was exercised or not, hence my reply.

 

[Gallop_Away]

He does, yes.

But the poster I was quoting specifically mentioned they'd go further and that 'it got their goat' regardless of whether the horse was exercised or not, hence my reply.

While I personally wouldn't choose to keep a horse that way, (no more than I would choose to keep a horse stabled 24/7), I understand it can be necessary for medical reasons and in that situation people are simply doing the best with what they have.

Although as GS said, if a horse needed to be confined to a tiny postage stamp paddock, and was unable to have any other form of exercise such as hand walking or led from another horse, I would certainly question whether it was ethical to keep a horse going in such circumstances.

 

[MagicMelon]

No idea, but then I often wonder why some people choose full livery for their horses and just turn up to ride. For me, half the fun is looking after the horse and I certainly dont want other people deciding what to feed or rug my horse with etc. Depends what you're used to I guess!

 

[Barton Bounty]

Re: the riding debate. I had a period of wondering if riding was ethical and the conclusion I came to is this:

Bo LOVES hacking. I mean really loves it. If I could communicate with him and give him the choice of either never being ridden again but hardly ever leaving the property, or to continue as we are, I am convinced he'd opt to continue as we are.

And I genuinely don't think that all horses object to being ridden. Our hacks are shared experiences that I'm convinced he enjoys as much as I do. He is delighted when we have a good long canter or gallop.

As long as we make sure they are comfortable and not in pain, and are considerate I.e getting off and walking the last mile home etc, I honestly don't think it's something to feel guilty about. With the proviso that if the horse seems unhappy or not up for it in any way, that they are not forced to perform regardless.

I agree with you…

BB loves going out, he stamps his foot when I am either taking too long getting ready if i tell him hes having the day off then if i turn him out , he guilt trips me

 

[lme]

No idea, but then I often wonder why some people choose full livery for their horses and just turn up to ride. For me, half the fun is looking after the horse and I certainly dont want other people deciding what to feed or rug my horse with etc. Depends what you're used to I guess!

Time. Work. And having multiple horses kept on different yards according to their needs. I don't quite just turn up to ride - sometimes I turn up to give a treat and watch my horses in the field for a bit, but I don't do the routine day to day care.

 

[marmalade76]

When my much loved Cochins, Softie and Beauty, retired from laying eggs a family member told me they should be put down because they were now useless. They became quiet when I asked why they didn't PTS their even more useless dog. As it happens the same nasty little yappy dog that 'wouldn't hurt them' went chasing dear old Softie and Beauty around the garden. That caper didn't last long either.

I don't see the difference either but it probably comes from way back when when people couldn't afford to have 'useless' animals around, if they could even afford them in the first place. Nowadays some of us see this very differently and are in a position/make sacrifices in order to stand by our animals.

I won't have my non-layers dispatched either, my hens are pets first, the eggs are a bonus.

I also have a "useless" dog, a "useless" tortoise and used to keep "useless" Guinea pigs.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I think there might be some crossed wires here . The specific poster and example I was responding to about small, individual turnout was when annoyance was expressed at horses in individual turn out *even when* the horse was in work.

So I'm not 100% sure why the ethics of retiring a horse's to a postage stamp is aimed at me (going by the response on my quoted post, I presume is for me).

FWIW, I wouldn't retire my horse to his postage stamp field either so there's every chance my lovely boy won't get a retirement I so want to give him when the time comes.

Happily, looking at his work load and (not so happily) my early alarm clocks to facilitate this before I then go to work, there's not a chance either of us can think of him as being anywhere close to retired

 

[Gallop_Away]

I think there might be some crossed wires here . The specific poster and example I was responding to about small, individual turnout was when annoyance was expressed at horses in individual turn out *even when* the horse was in work.

So I'm not 100% sure why the ethics of retiring a horse's to a postage stamp is aimed at me (going by the response on my quoted post, I presume is for me).

FWIW, I wouldn't retire my horse to his postage stamp field either so there's every chance my lovely boy won't get a retirement I so want to give him when the time comes.

Happily, looking at his work load and (not so happily) my early alarm clocks to facilitate this before I then go to work, there's not a chance either of us can think of him as being anywhere close to retired

Hi MM

Just to clarify, I was speaking in general terms in response to your post and not you specifically. I understand you keep your horse on the type of turnout required to manage a medical condition and ensure he has adequate exercise/mental stimulation, which is quite a different to a horse being permanently retired to a postage stamp. Apologise if I wasn't being clear.

 

[MuddyMonster]

Hi MM

Just to clarify, I was speaking in general terms in response to your post and not you specifically. I understand you keep your horse on the type of turnout required to manage a medical condition and ensure he has adequate exercise/mental stimulation, which is quite a different to a horse being permanently retired to a postage stamp. Apologise if I wasn't being clear.

Thank you for clarifying. Sorry from me as there's every chance I took it personally - which isn't usually like me - as I've had to defend why I manage mine as I do in real life a few times (along with a mix of 'but he's not fat' comments in there for fun too ...). I'm also just generally hormonal today so might be (definitely am) a bit more sensitive than normal

 

[Squeak]

It's really hard because we can't say categorically what a horse would definitely prefer to do if it had the choice. But doing, an admittedly flawed, comparison with humans which is the only species we can ask:

Neither species' natural habitats exist anymore. Humans should be out hunting/ food gathering and living in caves but I wouldn't want to go and live in a cave and spend the days hunting. Sitting at a desk all day isn't natural for us but we do enjoy the comfort of our houses and food and feel this is a fair trade off. To mitigate this we've invented sports which we enjoy and help make us fit and healthy. We're not bred for tennis anymore than a horse is for show jumping but we still choose and want to play it. If we didn't do exercise we'd be bored stiff and unhealthy. I know that by doing these sports I'm likely to injure myself either in the short or long term but I'd still far rather participate in them.

I'm not sure if horses would choose to go back to living in the wild and being attacked by predators, fighting with other herds for territory etc. Like us they've evolved so this would be fairly unnatural to them and it possibly wasn't always that great anyway? However, they can have their lives enriched to be more enjoyable to them such as living out, interesting pastures but it would probably still be like us living without exercise (LittleShetland has put this point far more eloquently than I have - they can have everything they need but still require more) . For horses and people, if you're older or ill/ injured etc then chances are you're not going to want as much exercise as someone fit and healthy so having e.g. an old or injured horse is completely different to a healthy horse doing nothing.

For humans, the majority of us have to go and work for a significant proportion of our life. Most people would probably choose not to but we still set our children up to follow in this pattern - surely a horse that is well looked after is almost better off than us in that respect? Ridden ones are often worked 10 or less hours a week, I'd jump at that sort of work/ life balance and I have no choice in whether I work or not. If I don't work I don't eat or have a house.

I'm not sure horses would be healthier, mentally or physically, for us not riding them anymore. Their habitat that kept them healthy and stimulated doesn't exist anymore and most of them have now been bred so that they couldn't survive living in the wild. It would more likely be a question of should we have horses and ride them or should they be extinct? Going back to the analogy of humans also not fulfilling their initial role of hunting etc, I'm not sure I'd want to be extinct/ not here! Granted the planet would be better of for humans being extinct though but that's a whole other thread

I think the most important thing we can do is to make sure that horses needs are met and they're as happy and comfortable as we can possibly make them and I think riding can contribute to that. I think it would be a slippery slope to say that horses should be extinct as otherwise so should a large swathe of animals such as dogs and cats. I do admit I'm biased though, I love riding and competing, however I've also had some retired horses over the years and they've seemed so happy to go out and potter around and I also enjoy looking after horses as much as riding them.