Why do people even bother?!

[Ponio_lover]

Sorry I realise there's currently a few threads about less than stellar owners on here but there's a situation at my yard that I just don't get. There's a family (older couple, grown up daughter) who have 4 horses that virtually never leave their stables. I moved to this yard a few months back and it's a really nice yard with a good mix of people, some DIY, some part, some full livery.
At first I noticed that the horses in question were easily riled up and would neigh and spin round in their boxes if a car pulled up or person walked past. After a week or two I realised I'd never seen them going out of their boxes but thought they could quite feasibly be taken out when I'm not there. Bear in mind we don't have winter turnout (not ideal but standard for our area) but I make sure mine gets exercised or at least goes in the all weather pen every single day. Then last week I noticed that one of their under rugs had slid right back, 2 days later it was still like that and I couldn't bear it so adjusted it but cottoned on to the fact that they've probably not had their rugs removed in weeks, if not longer. Today I finally asked another livery about them and she said she didn't believe they leave their stable more than a handful of times throughout winter and not a lot more in summer. One of the family will come up twice a day and do their beds nicely, feed them all, check water, etc so they're certainly not abandoned.
But I just think, Why? What is the bloody point??? Not only am I upset for the horses but they're also stressing out my usually relaxed mare because they are crawling the walls with boredom and she's opposite them.
I really can't say a thing as they've been there years and the yard clearly choose not to get involved with how people manage their horses. But it is depressing.
Anyway, not sure there's a real point to this thread other than I needed to rant.

 

[AmyMay]

It's not just the owners, but the yo's to allow this to happen. It's appalling 😠

 

[Pedantic]

That would really annoy me as well, why bother having them.

 

[be positive]

It's not just the owners, but the yo's to allow this to happen. It's appalling ��

I could not ignore horses being shut in, it is bad enough in winter if there is no turnout available but I expect all horses out as much as possible in the summer, I don't understand how any YO can allow such negligence to go on without dealing with it one way or another, and it is negligence however nicely the beds are kept no horse should be kept in 24/7 with no exercise unless there is an extremely good reason, being too lazy to turn out or exercise is not a good reason.

 

[Lulup]

The only person that can do anything about this is the YO. Their essential needs are being met so there is nothing anyone else can do but the YO could put her foot down. I take a small number of liveries at my yard and turnout is limited in winter so I only take people who actually exercise their horses. I would not permit a horse to be left in its stable without exercise. Like you I do wonder why people would go the expense and commitment of having four horses just to leave them in their stables. very sad

 

[throughtheforest]

It seems like any old idiot can own a horse these days... that seems to have played a part in the increase in neglect.

 

[Pedantic]

I could not ignore horses being shut in, it is bad enough in winter if there is no turnout available but I expect all horses out as much as possible in the summer, I don't understand how any YO can allow such negligence to go on without dealing with it one way or another, and it is negligence however nicely the beds are kept no horse should be kept in 24/7 with no exercise unless there is an extremely good reason, being too lazy to turn out or exercise is not a good reason.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Ponio_lover]

Yeah it does bother me that the YO has apparently ignored it. Don't really get that, as other than thT it's seems so far to be a nicely run yard, though the owner isn't involved in a hands on way and she has girls that do the liveries.

 

[Equi]

It does make my blood boil too. I've one at my yard who is "retired" for whatever reason but owner comes up maybe once a week to make a load of nets and buckets then isn't seen again. We all got gifts for xmas and hers is still sitting outside her stable. Saddest part is the horse knows her and he screams really loudly as soon as he sees her and gets so excited - he doesn't make a peep the rest of the time. We're diy yard but yo will do full days if asked (but doesn't want to be fully full) so I dunno why she bothers. She could just as easily and for cheaper put him on retirement livery :/

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think you are asking the wrong question, OP.
The answer to your question is "because the owner enjoys what they do with the horse and gets what they want from the experience", just as those who keep field ornaments/ pet ponies/minis do, when others don't see the point.
The question you should be asking though is " why doesn't YO bother?". No horse should be kept in 24/7 as a matter of course, IMO. It is YO's responsibility to make sure that all horses on the yard are looked after appropriately. But if there is no winter turnout available, YO hasn't really got a leg to stand on, when it comes to insisting that all horses leave their stable at least once per day. Where are they going to go?
I certainly wouldn't keep my horses on such a yard.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Things like this disgust me. I'm not the biggest fan of horses being kept stabled constantly atbthe best of times but this is pure neglect.
A poster above said about their essential needs being met but they are not....to be honest if it were dogs being kept in crates like this people would be absolutely horrified 😠😠😠😠

 

[rowan666]

It's not just the owners, but the yo's to allow this to happen. It's appalling 😠

^^ this. Horses **** in 24/7 is by far my absolute worst pet hate but as you've said there is no winter turnout and you've been told horses are seen to twice a day then not much more can be done, are theses horses ridable? If so could you suggest that find riders? Are the horses not being exercised in arena or horsewalker (asuming there are facilities to) early on it late on when owners think there will be less demand? Maybe suggest they find a shared that could help ease the burden, if they are coming down twice a day and making sure horses are well fed, watered and clean beds then I'm assuming they must care, just maybe a little naive and assume that since no turnout is the only option in your area that it is an acceptable way to keep them and don't realise the damage they are doing?

 

[Ponio_lover]

I think you're correct in saying they naively think this is ok. They've seemingly had horses for years but have probably always kept them like this. Two of the four aren't broken but are in their early teens! I know the lack of turnout is horrifying some people but it's really standard round here, however If they wanted to they could put the horses in the all weather turnout for a bit every day, lunge them, ride the broken in ones (as there are two arenas), go hacking, in hand walking, etc but don't. They just chose to do nothing. I think they have zero understanding of mental well being.

 

[Drzoidberg2]

Just be sure they aren't working the horses before you say anything to anyone!
I had someone badmouthing me recently as on restricted turnout days my mare stands in from 6:30 - 6:30. She's let out indoors from 6:00 to 6:30 and worked or let out in the evening again, but most miss it as they are on the yard while I'm at work. There was a lot of talking and reporting to the yo (who is hands off and doesn't know the hours we do) behind my back. Thankfully it got to the ears of someone who starts there before and finishes after me who was able to put a halt to it all but accusations without a simple fact check caused a serious atmosphere for a while as I was not impressed, all the talking and reporting was done without asking me or the person who is on the yard nearly 24/7.
That situation could have been avoided by someone even just asking me did my mare get out of the box that day, so if you are talking to anyone I would suggest the livery owner be the first port of call....

 

[Tnavas]

The only person that can do anything about this is the YO. Their essential needs are being met so there is nothing anyone else can do but the YO could put her foot down. I take a small number of liveries at my yard and turnout is limited in winter so I only take people who actually exercise their horses. I would not permit a horse to be left in its stable without exercise. Like you I do wonder why people would go the expense and commitment of having four horses just to leave them in their stables. very sad

Their essential needs are not being met - room to move and exercise are a requirement by law.

These people need to be reported to RSPCA.

 

[be positive]

Their essential needs are not being met - room to move and exercise are a requirement by law.

These people need to be reported to RSPCA.

The RSPCA will do nothing as they are fed and watered, even if they are not getting out it is a difficult one to prove , it is hard enough to get them involved when horses are not being fed, look extremely poor and obviously neglected, the BHS or WHW would be more likely to come and advise, they will not come if the RSPCA have been involved.
Really it is something any decent YO should be on top of it is up to them to make some yard rules that state every horse should get exercised in some way every day, the fact that these horses also spend most of the summer in shows a total disregard for their welfare and does make you wonder why anyone would keep 4 just for the sake of it, they would all be better off living out on grass livery if the owners are not interested in riding them.

 

[PeterNatt]

The Animal Welfare Act was recently updated and keeping a horse in all day long would be preventing it from 'allowing it to express itself and behave normally' which is one of the criteria of the act so I would suggest that you contact the BHS or WHW and ask them to give the owners of these horses and the yard owner some constructive advice. If the horses are unable to be turned out then I would suggest that the yard owner is responsible for ensuring that they are excercised sufficiently on a regular daily basis.
BHS Welfare 02476 840517, WHW 08000 480 180

 

[meleeka]

Sadly in my experience the Animal
welfare Act doesn't ever get enforced. Keeping horses Ina stable 24/7 for months didn't warrant any action or even advice near me. It took for one pony to die before there was any action.

 

[DD]

The Animal Welfare Act was recently updated and keeping a horse in all day long would be preventing it from 'allowing it to express itself and behave normally' which is one of the criteria of the act so I would suggest that you contact the BHS or WHW and ask them to give the owners of these horses and the yard owner some constructive advice. If the horses are unable to be turned out then I would suggest that the yard owner is responsible for ensuring that they are excercised sufficiently on a regular daily basis.
BHS Welfare 02476 840517, WHW 08000 480 180

^^
this

 

[PeterNatt]

The British Horse Society has Welfare Officers in each and every county within the U.K. and will be only to happy to assist you.
If you contact the welfare department at the BHS H.Q. then they will provide you with the contacxt details fo your local BHS welfare officer.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I'd be the YO checking last thing and ensuring decent welfare. I don't understand these YOs who do nothing, don't intervene in cases like this, don't sort out issues between liveries. It's mad. Money for old rope (not in every case, I know, but YOs who just take the money and ignore palling neglect amaze me)

If there is no winter turnout, I'd be looking for a yard with a horse walker/consistent use of the ménage, although I'd never go to a yard with zero winter turnout.

 

[Drzoidberg2]

I'm really surprised people are reccomending going straight to reporting to authorities with this! If its the case that the horses are stood in for weeks at a time fair enough something needs to be done but from what I understand this is all based on a conversation between two liveries, neither of them connected with the horses in question...
Would no one else on here just take a breath and have a chat with the horses owners first to ensure they have the correct end of the stick and the whole picture?

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

Welfare people may be stuck to do anything. If the horses have water, and fed . . . then I think that's all they can check.

I called a number of welfare,people out to a 3 acre field that seemed to be getting a collection of horses . .all looked rough, hungry . . Rugs slipped back not moved and reset . . and the welfare people couldn't do anything as there was access to water and a stack of hay, that the owner said they fed at night (?? - umm ).

Funny thing is, the horses left after a few weeks, and this was last year . . this year, whilst walking the dogs, the horses are back . . but apart from 2 ponies, the other's are different. Maybe a person that likes collecting horses? But does not have the time to care for them?.

Anyhow, welfare people are limited in their actions . .they don't do what u think they will.

 

[chocolategirl]

I'm a YO and there is no way on earth I would allow horses to be subjected to this kind of 'care' on my yard. It just breaks my heart thinkin about it. Shame on your YO for turning a blind eye, this tantamount to cruelty. Even if box rest is needed for injury etc., I fence off a stable sized pen for mine outside just to keep them sane. Like you say OP, why on earth do people have them if this is how they keep them?!

 

[Goldenstar]

The Animal Welfare Act was recently updated and keeping a horse in all day long would be preventing it from 'allowing it to express itself and behave normally' which is one of the criteria of the act so I would suggest that you contact the BHS or WHW and ask them to give the owners of these horses and the yard owner some constructive advice. If the horses are unable to be turned out then I would suggest that the yard owner is responsible for ensuring that they are excercised sufficiently on a regular daily basis.
BHS Welfare 02476 840517, WHW 08000 480 180

This not my understanding the law was changed to make it easier to intervene before
a animal was in extremis .
Now I have not studied the case law from the new act but it's unlikely that someone whose horses basic needs were being met would be liable for prosecution because they were not exercising the horses .
The five freedoms were a an attempt to give a frame work to help make desisions on how it acceptable to keep farm animals .
They don't stand up to closer inspection and they are not 'the law '.
Anybody thinking about them will see we 'break 'them all the time .

I have dealt with a case just like this one family on benefits of various types no body worked ,four horses bull fat never leaving their stables feet like aladiins slippers two stallions neither of whom were nice to know, all TBs a nightmare .
The YOer was tearing her hair out .
I could not work out what was going on but it was a peculiar physiological situation it all felt odd not healthy .
In the end the YOer sold the yard and moved away and I never heard what happened

 

[Ponio_lover]

Well I'm hoping they are getting out of their stables when I'm not there but unfortunately I don't think that's the case. However I think DrZoidberg is right, I don't know enough and I will have to find out more before getting involved.

 

[MagicMelon]

I could not ignore horses being shut in, it is bad enough in winter if there is no turnout available but I expect all horses out as much as possible in the summer, I don't understand how any YO can allow such negligence to go on without dealing with it one way or another, and it is negligence however nicely the beds are kept no horse should be kept in 24/7 with no exercise unless there is an extremely good reason, being too lazy to turn out or exercise is not a good reason.

This. If I were a YO, I wouldn't allow horses to be in 24/7. Those poor horses, suffering so badly Its pure cruelty. I hate that some people seem to think that as long as a horse "looks" ok and its stable looks pretty then it must be well looked after when mentally (and physically) it couldnt be further from the truth. Their basic needs are NOT being met, where's their freedom to graze, roll and socialise? If it were me, I'd be saying something to the owners. I'd even offer to turn their horses out for them into the turnout pen if it meant they got to go out.

 

[tallyho!]

Sorry I realise there's currently a few threads about less than stellar owners on here but there's a situation at my yard that I just don't get. There's a family (older couple, grown up daughter) who have 4 horses that virtually never leave their stables. I moved to this yard a few months back and it's a really nice yard with a good mix of people, some DIY, some part, some full livery.
At first I noticed that the horses in question were easily riled up and would neigh and spin round in their boxes if a car pulled up or person walked past. After a week or two I realised I'd never seen them going out of their boxes but thought they could quite feasibly be taken out when I'm not there. Bear in mind we don't have winter turnout (not ideal but standard for our area) but I make sure mine gets exercised or at least goes in the all weather pen every single day. Then last week I noticed that one of their under rugs had slid right back, 2 days later it was still like that and I couldn't bear it so adjusted it but cottoned on to the fact that they've probably not had their rugs removed in weeks, if not longer. Today I finally asked another livery about them and she said she didn't believe they leave their stable more than a handful of times throughout winter and not a lot more in summer. One of the family will come up twice a day and do their beds nicely, feed them all, check water, etc so they're certainly not abandoned.
But I just think, Why? What is the bloody point??? Not only am I upset for the horses but they're also stressing out my usually relaxed mare because they are crawling the walls with boredom and she's opposite them.
I really can't say a thing as they've been there years and the yard clearly choose not to get involved with how people manage their horses. But it is depressing.
Anyway, not sure there's a real point to this thread other than I needed to rant.

The YO has to maintain the 5 freedoms of horses under their care. They can be reported if they are not making sure these are met. Do call BHS or NEWC if you need more information and some guidance.
http://www.newc.co.uk/advice/welfare/

 

[Goldenstar]

1 freedom from hunger or thirst , well that's a simple one or is it will it preclude horses doing very long days work like say an endurance ride they willl certainly know hunger and thirst .
2 Freedom from discomfort , again looks simple but can we really deliver freedom from discomfort 100% of the time it's not even natural for animals to have freedom from discomfort in the wild numerous things cause animals discomfort.
3.Freedom from pain injury or disease , a quick read of threads on here will show we can't guarantee this .
4. Freedom to express normal behaviour, epic fail here domestic horses are not allowed to express normal behaviour particularly in the reproductive area , we geld the males prevent the mares from breeding freely as would be natural for them .
We often keep them in fields alone or in same sex fields we stop them fighting I could go on and on and on .
5. Freedom from fear or distress what the heck do they mean by that it's not even natural for a flight animal not to feel fear at some points does anyone really think they are breaking the law because they don't prevent dobbin getting a fright .

No yard owner can meet these freedoms no owner can either .

 

[be positive]

1 freedom from hunger or thirst , well that's a simple one or is it will it preclude horses doing very long days work like say an endurance ride they willl certainly know hunger and thirst .
2 Freedom from discomfort , again looks simple but can we really deliver freedom from discomfort 100% of the time it's not even natural for animals to have freedom from discomfort in the wild numerous things cause animals discomfort.
3.Freedom from pain injury or disease , a quick read of threads on here will show we can't guarantee this .
4. Freedom to express normal behaviour, epic fail here domestic horses are not allowed to express normal behaviour particularly in the reproductive area , we geld the males prevent the mares from breeding freely as would be natural for them .
We often keep them in fields alone or in same sex fields we stop them fighting I could go on and on and on .
5. Freedom from fear or distress what the heck do they mean by that it's not even natural for a flight animal not to feel fear at some points does anyone really think they are breaking the law because they don't prevent dobbin getting a fright .

No yard owner can meet these freedoms no owner can either .

You missed the bit about working horses that will be hard for many of us to assess,

"Horses that are in work should only
be asked to do what they are
capable of and what they enjoy
doing."

How do we decide what they "enjoy" , what they are capable of is slightly easier to gauge but they still need to be pushed out of their comfort zone to progress in their training, my own horse does not really enjoy hacking, he does not enjoy flatwork he would like to jump every day if asked for his opinion.