Why do people even bother?!

[tallyho!]

1 freedom from hunger or thirst , well that's a simple one or is it will it preclude horses doing very long days work like say an endurance ride they willl certainly know hunger and thirst .
2 Freedom from discomfort , again looks simple but can we really deliver freedom from discomfort 100% of the time it's not even natural for animals to have freedom from discomfort in the wild numerous things cause animals discomfort.
3.Freedom from pain injury or disease , a quick read of threads on here will show we can't guarantee this .
4. Freedom to express normal behaviour, epic fail here domestic horses are not allowed to express normal behaviour particularly in the reproductive area , we geld the males prevent the mares from breeding freely as would be natural for them .
We often keep them in fields alone or in same sex fields we stop them fighting I could go on and on and on .
5. Freedom from fear or distress what the heck do they mean by that it's not even natural for a flight animal not to feel fear at some points does anyone really think they are breaking the law because they don't prevent dobbin getting a fright .

No yard owner can meet these freedoms no owner can either .

With respect, I think if you can't meet these 5 basic needs, I'm not sure any animal is for you. I can't believe you are even trying to argue with me on this one GS - what are you trying to achieve here? Lets not try and overcomplicate the basics. They were developed for horses in captivity or else there would not even need to be such a thing even to exist as they would all be running wild and free like pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows (heard that somewhere?).

I think the 5 Freedoms helps people to achieve humane levels of keeping horses and they exist for all livestock (perhaps not being kept in a 12ftx12ft box for 6mo of the year?).

Still can't believe you wrote that... hoping someone has taken your identity and posted on your behalf.

 

[Lulup]

With respect, I think if you can't meet these 5 basic needs, I'm not sure any animal is for you. I can't believe you are even trying to argue with me on this one GS - what are you trying to achieve here? Lets not try and overcomplicate the basics. They were developed for horses in captivity or else there would not even need to be such a thing even to exist as they would all be running wild and free like pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows (heard that somewhere?).

I think the 5 Freedoms helps people to achieve humane levels of keeping horses and they exist for all livestock (perhaps not being kept in a 12ftx12ft box for 6mo of the year?).

Still can't believe you wrote that... hoping someone has taken your identity and posted on your behalf.

Goldenstar is right sadly. Consider these five freedoms properly - they are very open to interpretation and virtually impossible to enforce. Can you even begin to imagine how many horses live in circumstances that fall outside of these criteria? In reality no welfare organisation is going to be able to do anything other than offer advice as there is no way that these horses are going to be considered as welfare cases and certainly no law is being broken by them living in. As I said previously, in cases like this where there is no breach of the law, it is down to the YO to put in place their own standards and ensure that they are met.
I will no doubt get shot down in flames for this but if you visited many of the sprawling, bottom end DIY yards in this country you would be met with countless examples of horses whose five freedoms are not met and many of them probably wouldn't even have the basic care that these horses are at least getting.
I don't like it, I wouldn't allow it to happen on my yard for a week let alone months and I don't think much of the YO for not stepping in but lets face it - there are many, many horses in far worse situations. The OP has no jurisdiction here and any direct input may not be welcomed - expressing concerns to the YO is the most appropriate course of action in the first instance.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

OP is the person who sorts the stables out the person who (used to?) ride? The situation sounds a lot like somebody caring for somebody else's horses (a relative maybe?) and that second person no longer rides/grooms etc, but nothing has been put in place instead. If they're approachable you could try to find out and maybe ask if they'd like help finding a suitable sharer to ride them.

 

[Arzada]

I will no doubt get shot down in flames for this but if you visited many of the sprawling, bottom end DIY yards in this country you would be met with countless examples of horses whose five freedoms are not met

I think we could visit non-sprawling high-end non-DIY yards in this country and find the same thing.

 

[Goldenstar]

With respect, I think if you can't meet these 5 basic needs, I'm not sure any animal is for you. I can't believe you are even trying to argue with me on this one GS - what are you trying to achieve here? Lets not try and overcomplicate the basics. They were developed for horses in captivity or else there would not even need to be such a thing even to exist as they would all be running wild and free like pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows (heard that somewhere?).

I think the 5 Freedoms helps people to achieve humane levels of keeping horses and they exist for all livestock (perhaps not being kept in a 12ftx12ft box for 6mo of the year?).

Still can't believe you wrote that... hoping someone has taken your identity and posted on your behalf.

With respect how do you guarantee your horses freedom from disease or injury the answer is you can't
How do you guarantee your horse can express normal behaviour like breeding and fighting answer most of us don't want our horses breeding when ever they feel like it and we don't want them decided whose boss by fighting it out either .
Freedom from fear or distress I mean what on earth do they mean by that it's just nonsense Fattys distressed every time I give his less metabolically challenged the nice high energy forage when he gets diet forage but I not going to let him eat himself to death which is what he would do if just let him express his normal behaviour.
The Five freedoms don't help with me with anything at all I don't need nonsense like that to help me look after my horses well .

 

[tallyho!]

You can't just flounce the Animal Welfare Act by citing how "impossible" it is to provide - it isn't impossible to provide BASIC provisions.

It's not a "guarantee"... it's basic provisions for domestic horses. Don't try to interpret and overcomplicate - this is how abuse starts.

It IS legislated and it CAN be brought as evidence in a court of law that decides if you are in breach of the code. This includes keepers. OP, I'm only trying to help you seek appropriate help in your situation. I'm sorry that you have to read such interpretations coming from people with their own agendas.... I'm afraid that attitudes such as the above help no animal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...re-of-horses-ponies-donkeys-and-their-hybrids

In your case, look at section 3.1, section 4 and 5.2 in the article. I hope it helps your cause.

 

[Goldenstar]

I can flounce whatever I like you are not in charge of what I think .
Those five Freedom point as just plain bad part of silliest wooliest thinking and those who trot them out are guilty IMO of lazy thinking .
They are not enshrined in law or everyone with a gelding would be in breech of them and you can't enshrine in law the right for an animal to have freedom from illl health because it's inmpossible to deliver it .
I could go on .

 

[FfionWinnie]

Still can't believe you wrote that... hoping someone has taken your identity and posted on your behalf.

I've also had that thought over the last few days!

 

[Goldenstar]

I've also had that thought over the last few days!

Why ?because I don't slavishly agree with people perhaps .

 

[FfionWinnie]

Why ?because I don't slavishly agree with people perhaps .

No, actually not at all.

 

[tallyho!]

I can flounce whatever I like you are not in charge of what I think .
Those five Freedom point as just plain bad part of silliest wooliest thinking and those who trot them out are guilty IMO of lazy thinking .
They are not enshrined in law or everyone with a gelding would be in breech of them and you can't enshrine in law the right for an animal to have freedom from illl health because it's inmpossible to deliver it .
I could go on .

Please, do go on GS.... I'd like to see how the woolly thinking of DEFRA (who own the legislation), and the welfare bodies manage to prosecute people in breach of code, have it all wrong.

 

[meleeka]

Please, do go on GS.... I'd like to see how the woolly thinking of DEFRA (who own the legislation), and the welfare bodies manage to prosecute people in breach of code, have it all wrong.

As far as I'm aware, enforcing the legislation is down to the charities. In reality it doesn't make a jot of difference in who they choose to prosecute, only that they can call on the Act as evidence. An RSPCA inspector I had dealings with recently, when I questioned why two horses weren't able to be removed was that " They can only take the worst ones" (which I don't think is as all based on bodily condition or the 5 freedoms) and that before the Act she'd have been able to take them. I'm not sure what she meant by that comment but implied it was more of a hindrance than help on the front line. She also said that the 5 freedoms was a guide and not the law, which probably explains why there are so few prosecutions compared to the numbers of owners who neglect their animals needs.

 

[Goldenstar]

Please, do go on GS.... I'd like to see how the woolly thinking of DEFRA (who own the legislation), and the welfare bodies manage to prosecute people in breach of code, have it all wrong.

They ( not DEFRA who no role prosecution of bad horse owners ) don't prosecute for breaking the code they prosecute for breaking the law which is something quite different .

 

[Pigeon]

I think you are asking the wrong question, OP.
The answer to your question is "because the owner enjoys what they do with the horse and gets what they want from the experience", just as those who keep field ornaments/ pet ponies/minis do, when others don't see the point.
The question you should be asking though is " why doesn't YO bother?". No horse should be kept in 24/7 as a matter of course, IMO. It is YO's responsibility to make sure that all horses on the yard are looked after appropriately. But if there is no winter turnout available, YO hasn't really got a leg to stand on, when it comes to insisting that all horses leave their stable at least once per day. Where are they going to go?
I certainly wouldn't keep my horses on such a yard.

I don't think the two are comparable. To keep a horse stabled 24/7 isn't great, but for it to not even go on the horsewalker or be ridden is outright cruelty. If it were a dog or cat kept comparably I have no doubt the RSPCA would be involved. Space is a basic need for any animal. It's sad that people would choose to keep horses in factory farm conditions. They are obviously either not very intelligent, or genuinely don't care. The horses will begin to suffer from muscle wastage and other health problems, same as a bed bound person would. At least field ornaments or pet minis have their basic needs - space and company - met.

No, I think this is the owner's problem really. A DIY livery yard is basically just rent of a stable and field, though of course if it was me they'd be long gone.

Maybe they're scared of handling/riding the horses?

 

[tallyho!]

They ( not DEFRA who no role prosecution of bad horse owners ) don't prosecute for breaking the code they prosecute for breaking the law which is something quite different .

As far as I'm aware, enforcing the legislation is down to the charities. In reality it doesn't make a jot of difference in who they choose to prosecute, only that they can call on the Act as evidence. An RSPCA inspector I had dealings with recently, when I questioned why two horses weren't able to be removed was that " They can only take the worst ones" (which I don't think is as all based on bodily condition or the 5 freedoms) and that before the Act she'd have been able to take them. I'm not sure what she meant by that comment but implied it was more of a hindrance than help on the front line. She also said that the 5 freedoms was a guide and not the law, which probably explains why there are so few prosecutions compared to the numbers of owners who neglect their animals needs.

The "welfare bodies" have to have something to prosecute people on which is why the act exists. It is legislation therefore the code can be used in order to decide if you are in breach by a court of law. Whilst I appreciate that the situation is dire with regards prosecutions, personally I don't think its to do with the code, it's more about the cash available to pursue such cases. I have also had dealings with welfare charities not just for horses, and personally I feel that the code can help animals and in my experience successfully.

I'm offering a tangible route for the OP to pursue should she feel strongly about it including who to contact if she is unsure. If you want to have a personal discussion or try and educate me, I'm happy to take this offline.

 

[Ouch05]

I remember a conversation with a friend at my old yard a couple of years back. She was bad mouthing some of the other livies as they were sat down laughing and joking with a cup of tea. She was stating that is all they do you hardly see them with their ponies at all.

I asked her when was the last time she came up during the day or in fact was up here past 1800 in the evening. That all the ladies ponies had all been out for a long hack that morning I know because I see them. So not to judge unless she was up there 24/7 for a week or so and actually saw what went on as you might actually be surprised.

But as for going to the welfare agents that's a bit extreme when a conversation with the owners and or the YO might help in the first instance