Why do people insist on using stolen images to sell?

Casey76

Casey76

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There is an ad over there >> which has at least 4 images, all of them with watermarks >:(

When will H&H take a stand and refuse to accept adverts with stolen images?
 
I report the ads to the photographer - allows them to claim against them in the small claims court. One photographer claimed £1600 on a horse sale that was £30,000, and won!
 
Take the time to report them to the photographer. I have a friend who does event photography. He claims both against the individual and the publisher - every time.
 
If you think the photo is that good that you want to advertise with it then you need to make the effort to bloody buy it! Its not going to break the bank at the end of the day !
 
Totally agree. There's a thread about photographers in Club House as well. I'm a keen amateur photographer and this would seriously wind me up if someone used my copyright and/or watermarked image without my consent. Most photographers only charge a couple of quid for a digital images suitable for an ad, so why steal them??!!

Shay ... that's good idea. Think I'll do this in future, and if I see one on FB or somewhere, where this sort of thing is rife, it seems.
 
I've never understood why H&H penalizes us for putting stolen images in the forum but will happily accept them in adverts. Come on H&H, if it's wrong (which it clearly is) then it's wrong in every area of the website.
 
Cowpony said:
I've never understood why H&H penalizes us for putting stolen images in the forum but will happily accept them in adverts. Come on H&H, if it's wrong (which it clearly is) then it's wrong in every area of the website.
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I have been suspended or whatever for using my OWN photos on here that have a tiny watermark. Is there some bored little hausfrau somewhere that goes around scrutinising photos on here and reporting them?!

On the other hand, I have had photos of mine stolen and used in calenders without my permission so I thoroughly understand the point of the thread. Now I never put up decent photos on the social media that I intend to use in calenders or competitions.
 
Enfys said:
I have been suspended or whatever for using my OWN photos on here that have a tiny watermark. Is there some bored little hausfrau somewhere that goes around scrutinising photos on here and reporting them?!

.
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I got a slap on the wrist for using one that I bought specifically to use on forums and social media. The photographer sells low res copies with a small watermark for this purpose but still not OK.
 
The Laws over photo rights etc really confuses me.

I've been thinking how to ask my queries clearly but not sure if it will work.... :D

Say you didn't know a Photographer had taken your picture, or of your horse etc, are they allowed to sell them?

Who can they sell them to? Only the person in or who owns the subject of the photo or can anyone buy it?

If someone takes a photo of you/horse etc without you knowledge/permission, why do you have to pay for the photo if they are a Photographer?

In the case of a event/show Photographer, can anyone buy any photo? As in they could buy a photo of you riding your horse and post/display it publically without your knowledge/permission?
 
Illusion100 said:
The Laws over photo rights etc really confuses me.

I've been thinking how to ask my queries clearly but not sure if it will work.... :D

Say you didn't know a Photographer had taken your picture, or of your horse etc, are they allowed to sell them?

Yes - they can sell to magazines or anyone who wants to buy them.

Who can they sell them to? Only the person in or who owns the subject of the photo or can anyone buy it?

See above.

If someone takes a photo of you/horse etc without you knowledge/permission, why do you have to pay for the photo if they are a Photographer?

Because the photographer has paid to be at an event and have exclusive rights to sell the photos.

In the case of a event/show Photographer, can anyone buy any photo? As in they could buy a photo of you riding your horse and post/display it publically without your knowledge/permission?

Yes
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See above for my understanding. If you don't want photos taken at an event, I assume you would have to inform the organisers in advance so that they could inform the photographers. If you are, for example, out hunting or on a sponsored ride where there are often photographers I don't know how you could avoid it.
 
Illusion100 said:
The Laws over photo rights etc really confuses me.



If someone takes a photo of you/horse etc without you knowledge/permission, why do you have to pay for the photo if they are a Photographer?
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No there is no compulsion to buy anything, so no, you do not have to pay for the photo.

I think the majority of people like this service. I usually have a friend with a camera at an event, but still try to buy one from the pro, as I would like them to keep coming. Only if they took a nice one, of course.
 
This is a matter of copyright. You don't have to pay for the image if you don't want to own a copy of it. But the image is the property of the photographer, so, regardless of whether you are the subject of the image, or not, if you want to use it, you must buy the right to do so from the owner. The photographer. The other answers are correct ... Anyone can take photos of anybody or anything in a public place and do what they want with them. There are certain caveats in the laws around invasion of privacy, but in this case, images taken at horse events are the property of the photographer and he/she can do whatever they want with them.

Even if you buy a copy, you are not buying the copyright unless the photographer specifically signs it over to you, and that image can be re-sold to anyone else or used for other purposes at the photographer's discretion.

So, if you steal an image from the photographers web site, which seems to have happened in this case, it will have the copyright watermark on it. If you buy a copy, this will be removed.
 
Enfys said:
I have been suspended or whatever for using my OWN photos on here that have a tiny watermark.
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Ha ha, so did I. I'm a pro photographer and it was my mother in law (also a pro photographer - we work together in the same family business!) that took a photo of me competing at an event (she was there on a personal basis, wasn't even there covering the event). The image didnt even have a watermark on, but because it looked professionally taken HHO removed it and gave me a warning when I posted the pic on here ages ago! It still amuses me!
 
Greylegs said:
This is a matter of copyright. You don't have to pay for the image if you don't want to own a copy of it. But the image is the property of the photographer, so, regardless of whether you are the subject of the image, or not, if you want to use it, you must buy the right to do so from the owner. The photographer. The other answers are correct ... Anyone can take photos of anybody or anything in a public place and do what they want with them. There are certain caveats in the laws around invasion of privacy, but in this case, images taken at horse events are the property of the photographer and he/she can do whatever they want with them.

Even if you buy a copy, you are not buying the copyright unless the photographer specifically signs it over to you, and that image can be re-sold to anyone else or used for other purposes at the photographer's discretion.

So, if you steal an image from the photographers web site, which seems to have happened in this case, it will have the copyright watermark on it. If you buy a copy, this will be removed.
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Not just at horse events, technically any photographs I take during studio sessions etc. of families etc. I can use for whatever purpose I wish. I don't however, I always ask my clients to tick a yes / no box if they're happy for us to potentially use their images for marketing as I feel its only polite to do so.

No pro photographer would ever give over the copyright to any image, if someone is buying a photograph (in any form) then they are purely buying it for their own personal use. They are not allowed to use the images for competitions, selling / commercial use (such as for a modelling portfolio unless we specifically allow this) and aren't allowed to edit the images at all etc. Using an image to sell a horse would infringe copyright. Lots of event photographers are now sending invoices out to people who show watermarked images on their FB pages etc.
 
MagicMelon said:
Not just at horse events, technically any photographs I take during studio sessions etc...... Lots of event photographers are now sending invoices out to people who show watermarked images on their FB pages etc.
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I took some photographs at a social.. I was doing it gratis for two friends of mine. I am an amateur, but not bad at it, and I get fee paying work. I went in to the venue beforehand and told the band I would be taking some photographs that night, and to contact me if they want to use any.

The band have just lifted them from FB and are using them on their own FB page. I'm bloody annoyed. I would probably not have charged them much at all, if anything, but it would be polite to ask. All it would take would then to be credited for the photographs. But no, we'll just lift them. Bar stewards!

For some reason I don't mind giving them away to party goers, as a favour to my mates and their friends, but I do mind others capitalising on my good nature. Still, it was a helluva party, and I did manage to drink my own body weight in IPA;

https://randomsnaps.smugmug.com/Events/20sParty/

Correct me if I am wrong, but watermarking is neither here or there. The image still belongs to the photographer?
 
I think if you post pictures on FB you waive your right to any copyright and anyone can use them. Even if your privacy setting is no share, theres nothing stopping people downloading them and using them.
 
Simple, thye use them becasue the consequences aren't widespread yet. Photographers need to protect their property and the public need to call people out on it.

Photographers could also do with looking at their models - there will always be people who will steal, that is a given but to weed out the middle ground the product needs to be priced to sell and be convenient.

I got a CD of all my photos from a dressage competition for £20 - including the rights to use them as well as the photographer (great value -bought and used). I went with a friend to a ODE and they were £25 per photo, £15 for low res faecbook pic - well I simply wouldn't buy or steal them but otheres will.

I am aware fo all the overheads etc but as a business if you cannot afford to run at the prices people will pay then you don't have a business (I am a business consultant, this is a fundamental!).

HOWEVER I really believe that more needs to be done - H&H need pulling up on accepting adverts with copywrighted images, photographers needs to put their foot down and the public need to be prepared to pay for products.
 
I have heard that of Facebook but I am not entirely sure how true that is in the UK. In fact you sparked my curiosity, and I did a quick search. I think posting your photographs on FB does not remove your property rights. I am a complete amateur in this field though, I am sure it has been flogged to death elsewhere;

"Our license or sublicense does not affect ownership or copyright privileges for material on the site"

https://www.facebook.com/notes/andy-rouse-wildlife-photography/facebook-picture-rights/270204724175

And this;
https://www.facebook.com/help/348831205149904

It is kind of academic. I doubt I will do anything about it.
 
I was chatting to an event photographer quite few years ago (probably 20 come to think of it!) He was at a fence I was fence judging at so in between competitors we had a good chinwag. He told me he took THAT photo of Princess Diana presenting a polo trophy to James Hewitt. He took it only because it was part of the event and knew nothing of its significance (it might not even have been significant at the time) but later made over £1m selling it to tabloid papers over and over again. So yes, they can sell it to whomever they choose as many times as they choose - and for quite a price sometimes. I wasn't a 100% sure whether to believe him so next time I saw that photo I checked the credit and it was him.
 
I guess the world is awash with cameras now, and there is less value attributed to images. I would go do it for a living, and may do yet if I can see a way to clear £500 a day 4 days a week, but it is competitive and highly aspirational market, with low barriers to entry. On the other side of that experience and capability coin, I know professional photographers who are very good, deeply experienced, and highly commercial. And they are still going to the wall. Sadly I think photography will remain for me a hobby that occasionally pays.
 
There is hope, then! An acquaintance of mine is a papper. He is very coy about earnings. He told me I should be charging £400 a go for some of my images, which is good for the ego if not for the wallet. He snapped someone recently and I asked what he thought it would be worth. He said 'I don't know, it depends what happens in the next 6 months'.

Sounds like pinhooking to me!!
 
chris random snaps said:
I guess the world is awash with cameras now, and there is less value attributed to images. I would go do it for a living, and may do yet if I can see a way to clear £500 a day 4 days a week, but it is competitive and highly aspirational market, with low barriers to entry. On the other side of that experience and capability coin, I know professional photographers who are very good, deeply experienced, and highly commercial. And they are still going to the wall. Sadly I think photography will remain for me a hobby that occasionally pays.
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Yes, I imagine today there would be 30 or 40 versions of that photo these days (and a lot of people who don't need to make a living out of selling them) which would reduce their value considerably.
 
I am currently studying photography at uni and have a business module. Bear with me if it's not writen well, I studied this last year. Also I'm sorry I haven't used quotes. It wouldn't work on my phone.

"Say you didn't know a Photographer had taken your picture, or of your horse etc, are they allowed to sell them?"
They are allowed to sell them. Legally anyone is allowed to take photographs in public places and do with them what they wish. There are minor ethical issues that may cause a reason not to though.

"Who can they sell them to? Only the person in or who owns the subject of the photo or can anyone buy it?"
The subject of the image does have the legal right to get the images removed. But overall the photographer never loses the copyright and licence to the image. Unless they have sold it with a contract issued signed and dated to confirm this.
Please see an example of Rihanna who got her images removed from a topshop shirt. Slightly different to a pic of you and your horse, but the court does recognise the issues of subjects of the images. I know of one photographer who entered an image in a large photo competition and the model submitted a statement to the gallery and asked for it to be removed as she did not give her permission for it to be displayed. Now she had signed a model release form and also asked the photographer if she could model for them. But it was removed as they couldn't display an image the subject didn't want to be.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...res-appeal-over-use-of-her-image-9994691.html

"If someone takes a photo of you/horse etc without you knowledge/permission, why do you have to pay for the photo if they are a Photographer?"
You have to pay as they retain the copyright to the image and the licences attached too. It has to be bought because it would not otherwise be created. There are some interesting articles. I can't find links now but it makes interesting reading (or am I a little sad..?!)

"In the case of a event/show Photographer, can anyone buy any photo? As in they could buy a photo of you riding your horse and post/display it publically without your knowledge/permission?"
Anyone can buy any photo that they wish to do so. Again the subject can request for it not to be sold to anyone else, but it is down to the photograohers decision whether to do this. Also at the end of the day who else would want to buy a photo of someone else riding their horse?


"I took some photographs at a social.. I was doing it gratis for two friends of mine. I am an amateur, but not bad at it, and I get fee paying work. I went in to the venue beforehand and told the band I would be taking some photographs that night, and to contact me if they want to use any. The band have just lifted them from FB and are using them on their own FB page. I'm bloody annoyed. I would probably not have charged them much at all, if anything, but it would be polite to ask. All it would take would then to be credited for the photographs. But no, we'll just lift them. Bar stewards!
Correct me if I am wrong, but watermarking is neither here or there. The image still belongs to the photographer?"
It is a PITA when people do this to your images!! One of the people on my course has had this done so many times. I have told her to ask them to remove them or pay the invoice but she won't.. Watermarking isn't that much of a deterrent now. People are happy to crop it out or just clone it out. It really isn't that hard. People also aren't clued up enough to realise that they have done something wrong as well. I think education is down to this. Not sure what could be done about it other than making them realise that it's wrong and if it's done more than once then taking action.

"I think if you post pictures on FB you waive your right to any copyright and anyone can use them. Even if your privacy setting is no share, theres nothing stopping people downloading them and using them."
Facebook don't claim the copyright. But they do state that for use of their services the can use any images uploaded onto the site for their own purposes. Tumblr is one site that does not. Orphan images is something which is also being pushed out (this is where all the metadata is removed and none has claimed it. So it is free for public use.
 
Surely if you make a charge for doing something it takes you out of "amateur" status and you are considered a professional? Don't do yourself down Chris - there are plenty of professionals who will do that for you, it's cutthroat !!
 
Having said all of that event photographers could be a bit more helpful...I was at a county show a few years ago and the event photographer accidentally captured a gorgeous portrait headshot of my big lad, I bought all the a4 images of him in the day but emailed later to request a big framed version of the headshot....never heard from them, not a sausage.....v disappointed, it was an amazing pic
 
Racergirl said:
Surely if you make a charge for doing something it takes you out of "amateur" status and you are considered a professional? Don't do yourself down Chris - there are plenty of professionals who will do that for you, it's cutthroat !!
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Thanks! If people are prepared to pay you for your work or for your time that is certainly a very a positive step. That has happened for the first time this year. Sadly between turnover and profit there are a raft of costs and overheads, and I would not call myself a professional until I could turn a profit. One day though, maybe, one day. And thank you for the encouragement!
 
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