Why do so many people think its fine to have fat horses?

[Mrs B]

What about rather than straw bed a bucket of the chopped straw feed products. If he ignores it, he can't be that hungry but it's there to pick at if needed. It's a feed so presumably the yard would be OK with it
I've not tried any personally (just use a slice of normal straw at bottom of hay bar) but looks to be lots of brands that claim to be just straw

Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm after - a chop which is just straw ... will look into ossichaff, W&R - thank you!

 

[oldie48]

While we're the topic, am going to try and keep H's weight down this winter by reducing his night-time haylage intake and upping his exercise. He will be out during the day. He doesn't tolerate hay at all, soaked or otherwise and develops a cough within about 3 days.

What do people recommend as a haylage replacement I could leave in at night to let him pick at when he's finished his net?

I've heard people mention TopChop Zero, HoneyChop Lite and Lucie Stalks but not used any of them before myself ... if ever I've had one that runs to fat, they've been on straw which has helped if they get the munchies before dawn, but the yard doesn't allow straw and it wouldn't suit his breathing anyway ...
TIA

I use Topchop Zero as it was the only one I could buy locally, wven then they had to order it in for me. Fatty is not very keen on it but I leave some in a trug for him to pick at when he's finished his double netted and well soaked hay ration. He has to be pretty desperate to eat it and it is quite low calorie but I feel it's better than having an empty gut.

 

[Goldenstar]

I use top chop zero

 

[PurBee]

Everything eventually becomes an ‘industry’ and the horse world is no exception. Fat horses are caused by many reasons yet in my experience, a major cause is the ‘forage industry for equines’ - it’s completely ruthless to make a fast buck and the nutritional aspect is of secondary importance. Many hay producers are cow farmers in ireland and sell predominantly tetraploid ryegrass hay which is a hybrid grass and designed to fatten up cows. It has much higher sugar than the original single chromosome ryegrass hay species. If it is cut when just heading it has much higher sugar in it than later cut hay.

What they call ‘nutritious’ normally means high sugar.

My haylage supplier mucked up my recent order as i normally get a late cut, multi species haylage, high fibre and well-fermented to ferment all the high sugars to become a low sugar forage. They look great on it, the best ever!
This is normally a uk haylage supply. This new batch was from an irish farm, and contains all tetraploid ryegrass.....smells very sweet, and the horses within 2 days of feeding are fizzy, stroppy, foot tender, and after 2 weeks my mare has shoulder fat pads appearing. i couldnt believe how fast the fat pads appeared! She looked so great, even on plenty of ‘lush grass’ (multi-species old meadow grasses) and was the trimmest ever with unrestricted grazing.
The gelding was foot tender, got an abscess and also filled legs.
I stopped this new forage, symptoms abaited...then restarted the forage and filled legs/bloated guts returned.

Since just having this change of haylage and introduction of just ONE grass species, alongside normal grazing, has changed their body score and health considerably.

So the tiniest change in diet can cause huge changes to their body score and health.

We have to be eagle-eyed about their diet, and certainly wary of hybridised grasses designed for getting cows fat!

my haylage supplier has no idea about these differences and called this new batch ‘more nutritious’! They wont come and collect this pallet load back, despite admitting a delivery mistake was made, so ive had to go elsewhere and buy another pallet of low sugar stuff.

 

[Mrs B]

I use top chop zero

Thanks, GS ... do you feed it ad-lib ? and dry or do you dampen it?

I've been in contact with Ossi-Chaff but I don't have a local supplier, although they have kindly given me quotes to send some ...

 

[JoannaC]

Been looking at old pics and whilst we did let our ponies get fat in the Summer we also let them get thin over Winter. This was my section b Silver Jubilee back in the eighties and the difference is quite marked.

 

[Goldenstar]

No I don’t but you could .I put it in a couple of scoops at a time if they are in along time with nothing .
Mine waste a lot of it that’s why I just put it in drips and drabs.

 

[Goldenstar]

While we're the topic, am going to try and keep H's weight down this winter by reducing his night-time haylage intake and upping his exercise. He will be out during the day. He doesn't tolerate hay at all, soaked or otherwise and develops a cough within about 3 days.

What do people recommend as a haylage replacement I could leave in at night to let him pick at when he's finished his net?

I've heard people mention TopChop Zero, HoneyChop Lite and Lucie Stalks but not used any of them before myself ... if ever I've had one that runs to fat, they've been on straw which has helped if they get the munchies before dawn, but the yard doesn't allow straw and it wouldn't suit his breathing anyway ...
TIA

Could he eat dried grass ?This is different to hay it’s cut they then dry in a machine it mixes well with chopped straw , the grass is high calorie .

 

[Mrs B]

Could he eat dried grass ?This is different to hay it’s cut they then dry in a machine it mixes well with chopped straw , the grass is high calorie .

You mean like Readigrass? Could certainly take a look at it as an alternative to haylage, if I could find some chopped straw to go with it ... Thanks!

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes like readigrass that’s how I tempt mine to start eating the chopped straw .

 

[Polos Mum]

Mrs B you could if you have the time chop stray yourself. I had an oldie with no teeth and I had a good go at chopping hay for him with a standard DIY shop garden shredder machine. It would work even better on straw which is that bit stalkier. A couple of small bales would make a good few sacks of chopped straw.

Or see if the yard would allow straw in a net a section at a time as food maybe?

 

[ponyparty]

I used to feed TopChop Zero - I put it in a big trug, clipped to a tie ring low down on the wall so he couldn't kick it over (learnt the hard way!). The first few days he guzzled it (or kicked it everywhere), then he realised it's actually like equine Ryvita and would only nibble it if really hungry.

 

[Apercrumbie]

I do believe that hard food has become the norm, and that the vast majority of leisure horses just don't need it at all. Most don't need supplements either, and you're just adding more calories with the feed that the supplements go in, however they now seem to be the norm. I would venture a guess that 80-90% of leisure horses are in light work. That's absolutely fine, however they need to be treated as such and not like a 4* eventer.

However the biggest difference in the past few decades is the grass. Modern rye grass, which makes up the bulk of our grazing, is like us eating mcdonalds topped with ice cream, caramel and deep-fried mars bars. It's just so unsuitable as equine grazing - it's like candy for poor doers and condemns good doers to a life in muzzles or on restricted grazing. I'm trying to introduce more varied species to our grazing but few can break through the rye monoculture apart from weeds. (on a side note, advice much appreciated on what to plant for good doers)

 

[SO1]

I have a greedy pony but even he refuses the top chop zero. Unfortunately this means once he has eaten his soaked hay he has nothing until breakfast. Despite being the greedist pony on the yard he was one of the only ones who refused to eat it.

Topchop zero is made too palatable to feed adlib ossichaff has mine turning their noses up so suits me fine they only eat it if they are really hungry

 

[BBP]

I do believe that hard food has become the norm, and that the vast majority of leisure horses just don't need it at all. Most don't need supplements either, and you're just adding more calories with the feed that the supplements go in, however they now seem to be the norm. I would venture a guess that 80-90% of leisure horses are in light work. That's absolutely fine, however they need to be treated as such and not like a 4* eventer.

However the biggest difference in the past few decades is the grass. Modern rye grass, which makes up the bulk of our grazing, is like us eating mcdonalds topped with ice cream, caramel and deep-fried mars bars. It's just so unsuitable as equine grazing - it's like candy for poor doers and condemns good doers to a life in muzzles or on restricted grazing. I'm trying to introduce more varied species to our grazing but few can break through the rye monoculture apart from weeds. (on a side note, advice much appreciated on what to plant for good doers)

I definitely agree with the second paragraph, not sure I agree with the first. 30 years ago every feed room I went in was full of mixes. Our pony used to get molassed mix, plus sugar beet, barley, all sorts. Whereas now all I, and most people I know, feed is i molassed chaff and a little linseed. Back then I was a little more gung ho, cantering on every verge, trotting along every road, galloping sling stubble, my ‘schooling’ was cantering around jumping things, I was probably riding horses that had ulcers or back problems not because I was cruel but the knowledge wasn’t so readily accessible. I had never even heard of ulcers but half the yard probably had them.

Now the verges are full of litter or have big drainage gulleys cut into them, the roads are busier, faster and more dangerous, bridlepaths are harder to access, I have more respect for farmers land (and my horses legs) than to go charging around stubble, my horses get rested when I think they are not quite right. The opportunities for doing real fitness work get whittled down. Plus having this particular horse that won’t hack alone made it harder. None of these things are excuses for having a fat horse, but they are challenges vs ‘the good old days’.

Having a good doer that’s retiring at 15 definitely isn’t easy prospect, potentially 15 years (or more!) of managing weight.

 

[Goldenstar]

BBP’s post above is a good when we where kids we had two ponies between three of us in fact we had three but the Shetland got out grown earlier on .
But that’s what we had ,ponies and they where ridden and ridden and ridden in winter they where out all week and then ridden into the ground at the week end .
They did not have hay in the field which was on the edge of a salt marsh and poor .
they got caught in the worse weather and stayed in and got pony cubes and hay for a couple of hours in the evening .
The Easter holidays came and they got ridden and ridden but the grass was not through and I can remember feeding them cubes on Easter Sunday they where very slim and fit we where ,looking back on it upping food to cover the work they had done .
All those ponies worked into their thirties .

 

[autumn7]

At the start of each day I make up 1.5 kg (ie. a nearly full 40L trug) Honeychop Chopped Oat Straw with 1/2 scoop Dengie Hi Fi Molasses-free plus tablespoon salt stirred well into it. I feed this in scoopfuls to my two as an when throughout the day in addition to rationed hay. Over the 24 hrs it usually all goes between one horse and small pony. The Dengie chaff stirred through makes it just about tasty enough for consumption if they really need it and one bag at this rate lasts forever.
I've also had success using Thunderbrooks Herbal Chaff as the chaff component but prefer the Dengie.

 

[Goldenstar]

I also sometimes add a few grass cubes to the straw chop to tempt them to have a go .

 

[tristar]

fiber is king, four lots of high fiber late cut hay, in moderate amounts, and work, our hay was cut late this year, a lot of hay was cut early this year and would have too much sugar for mine.

i would not waste money on chops and straw based chaffs ever again

horses in my opinion do not need to eat all the time, but at regular intervals, no glut or famine, sensible amounts every four hours so will lose weight

 

[ester]

You mean like Readigrass? Could certainly take a look at it as an alternative to haylage, if I could find some chopped straw to go with it ... Thanks!

I will add that not all dried grasses are the same, readigrass is all ryegrass I think so not ideal, others contain a mix

 

[autumn7]

And Goldenstar, how true. My pony thrived on a long, narrow piece of rough grazing land alongside a railway line. Never clipped or rugged, small field shelter and hedges for shelter (didn't possess a stable), ridden daily with friend who kept pony in similar circumstances. Hacked to hunt meets or trailered (friend's trailer) to meets further afield but even to those we were dropped off on a roadside to hack the last couple of miles. The only time he was stabled was post-hunting nights over at friend's place. Summers were endless trotting and cantering about on stubble fields jumping bales that were left in situ for aaaages in those days, and riding across the local airdrome (Lincs), generally messing about playing stunt riders or jockeys with ridiculously short stirrups.

Having totally non-horsy parents, pony was brought up strictly in accordance with the advice of the Pony Club Bible, ''Keeping a Pony at Grass'', circa1958. he was a 14.2hh pony who received 2 x 8lb (ie. cob sized) tarred rope haynets stuffed full per day and in the depths of winter, 4 lbs of Spillers Horse and Pony Nuts daily, because that is what the book said. He also had a large cubed plain salt lick tied to the fence. Feeding hay began Nov. through to March because that is what the book said. Pony was cold shod every 8 weeks, tied to a tree by the roadside, by Mr. Lyon the farrier at a cost of £9.00. Pony thrived somehow, although did develop navicular 'disease' as termed in those days, probably not helped because we shamelessly cantered on roads without a thought in those days, and ended up at Bransby Home of Rest for Horses several years after it became a charity when we moved house as founder was a family friend. I am still a firm supporter of this charity to this day.

I do believe the life my pony had then, although adored and looked after to the best of our family's knowledge, left alot to be desired by today's standards, although the way he was kept was pretty much the norm in those days, but ponies were more commonly worked far harder and more regularly and fed far more basically than today and obesity was never apparent as it is today.

 

[PurBee]

I do believe that hard food has become the norm, and that the vast majority of leisure horses just don't need it at all. Most don't need supplements either, and you're just adding more calories with the feed that the supplements go in, however they now seem to be the norm. I would venture a guess that 80-90% of leisure horses are in light work. That's absolutely fine, however they need to be treated as such and not like a 4* eventer.

However the biggest difference in the past few decades is the grass. Modern rye grass, which makes up the bulk of our grazing, is like us eating mcdonalds topped with ice cream, caramel and deep-fried mars bars. It's just so unsuitable as equine grazing - it's like candy for poor doers and condemns good doers to a life in muzzles or on restricted grazing. I'm trying to introduce more varied species to our grazing but few can break through the rye monoculture apart from weeds. (on a side note, advice much appreciated on what to plant for good doers)

Cocksfoot and timothy are good seeded into a pasture, as theyre high in fibre. Cockfoot root system holds up to heavy grazing. Timothy predominant pasture root-system doesnt hold up to heavy grazing, so is best sown in with other species. The older fescues are ok....endophyte-free tall fescue is actually very long lush looking grass yet not too sweet.

Sweet vernal grass is a nice old species, costing 75 pounds per kilo of seed, compared with 4 pounds per kilo of ryegrass seed! (Now you see why ryegrass pastures are more common, theyre cheaper to sow!) Sweet vernal grass is called so because it gives hay a really nice sweet/fragrant aroma - its lovely, yet its not actually a ‘sweet’ grass nutritionally.

The traditional diploid ryegrass is ok, much less sugar in it than tetraploid ryegrass. ‘Italian ryegrass’ is mainly tetraploid, grows very tall so farmers get more tonnes per acre = more profit from hay, hence the reason why ryegrass is dominating the equine market.

Cotswold Seeds in the UK is a fab seed company that do many low sugar equine pasture seed mixes, ryegrass free. They really are an excellent company to deal with. Very helpful. Tell them your soil/climate type and they’ll help you to do a bespoke mixture for around 80 pounds sterlind for 14kg of seed - they call an acre seed pack. They also provide organic pasture seed mixes.
As an aside, i tend to use between 15-20kg of seed per acre, to get a really dense sward of grass, for heavy grazing animals. 11-14kg per acre is really Ok for overseeding a pasture with many bare patches, or establishing an acre you wish to cut for hay next year.


Due to ryegrass being sooo common in hay and haylage I only use haylage thats fermented the sugars so it reduces the sugar content. But it has to be fully fermented and cut late, otherwise its still high sugar. Not all haylage is made equal!
I use haylage alongside grazing, mainly due to mouldy hay issues in this damp 80+ humidity climate. Im on the search for small bale wrapped mixed species organic hay If anyone knows a supplier! (thunderbrook do it but its achingly expensive at 450 for 30 bales...ouch!)

As another aside, magnesium regulates the other main electrolytes, sodium, potassium....and many supplements have lots of sodium and small amounts of magnesium. Magnesium is required by cells in order to break down sugars and use it as fuel. If there’s low magnesium in the quine diet, fat pads and weight gain can result and lami. Hence why magnesium is often suggested as adjunct addition in lami-recovery protocols.
Hay pastures are often fertilised with NPK acidic salts. No magnesium is added. So many hays are high in potassium and low in magnesium.
A horse requires roughly 10-14grams of magnesium per day, and if in work, more.
Just like human athletes when exercising lose electrolytes, horses, being flight animals sequester minerals in order to run/flee....to enable fast delivery of glucose for energy to run. If we focus on minerals in their diet, we find we can help them keep a healthy weight, to prevent primarily magnesium depletion.

 

[TPO]

Cocksfoot and timothy are good seeded into a pasture, as theyre high in fibre. Cockfoot root system holds up to heavy grazing. Timothy predominant pasture root-system doesnt hold up to heavy grazing, so is best sown in with other species. The older fescues are ok....endophyte-free tall fescue is actually very long lush looking grass yet not too sweet.

Sweet vernal grass is a nice old species, costing 75 pounds per kilo of seed, compared with 4 pounds per kilo of ryegrass seed! (Now you see why ryegrass pastures are more common, theyre cheaper to sow!) Sweet vernal grass is called so because it gives hay a really nice sweet/fragrant aroma - its lovely, yet its not actually a ‘sweet’ grass nutritionally.

The traditional diploid ryegrass is ok, much less sugar in it than tetraploid ryegrass. ‘Italian ryegrass’ is mainly tetraploid, grows very tall so farmers get more tonnes per acre = more profit from hay, hence the reason why ryegrass is dominating the equine market.

Cotswold Seeds in the UK is a fab seed company that do many low sugar equine pasture seed mixes, ryegrass free. They really are an excellent company to deal with. Very helpful. Tell them your soil/climate type and they’ll help you to do a bespoke mixture for around 80 pounds sterlind for 14kg of seed - they call an acre seed pack. They also provide organic pasture seed mixes.
As an aside, i tend to use between 15-20kg of seed per acre, to get a really dense sward of grass, for heavy grazing animals. 11-14kg per acre is really Ok for overseeding a pasture with many bare patches, or establishing an acre you wish to cut for hay next year.


Due to ryegrass being sooo common in hay and haylage I only use haylage thats fermented the sugars so it reduces the sugar content. But it has to be fully fermented and cut late, otherwise its still high sugar. Not all haylage is made equal!
I use haylage alongside grazing, mainly due to mouldy hay issues in this damp 80+ humidity climate. Im on the search for small bale wrapped mixed species organic hay If anyone knows a supplier! (thunderbrook do it but its achingly expensive at 450 for 30 bales...ouch!)

As another aside, magnesium regulates the other main electrolytes, sodium, potassium....and many supplements have lots of sodium and small amounts of magnesium. Magnesium is required by cells in order to break down sugars and use it as fuel. If there’s low magnesium in the quine diet, fat pads and weight gain can result and lami. Hence why magnesium is often suggested as adjunct addition in lami-recovery protocols.
Hay pastures are often fertilised with NPK acidic salts. No magnesium is added. So many hays are high in potassium and low in magnesium.
A horse requires roughly 10-14grams of magnesium per day, and if in work, more.
Just like human athletes when exercising lose electrolytes, horses, being flight animals sequester minerals in order to run/flee....to enable fast delivery of glucose for energy to run. If we focus on minerals in their diet, we find we can help them keep a healthy weight, to prevent primarily magnesium depletion.

Thank you for such a detailed post ?

 

[tristar]

Cocksfoot and timothy are good seeded into a pasture, as theyre high in fibre. Cockfoot root system holds up to heavy grazing. Timothy predominant pasture root-system doesnt hold up to heavy grazing, so is best sown in with other species. The older fescues are ok....endophyte-free tall fescue is actually very long lush looking grass yet not too sweet.

Sweet vernal grass is a nice old species, costing 75 pounds per kilo of seed, compared with 4 pounds per kilo of ryegrass seed! (Now you see why ryegrass pastures are more common, theyre cheaper to sow!) Sweet vernal grass is called so because it gives hay a really nice sweet/fragrant aroma - its lovely, yet its not actually a ‘sweet’ grass nutritionally.

The traditional diploid ryegrass is ok, much less sugar in it than tetraploid ryegrass. ‘Italian ryegrass’ is mainly tetraploid, grows very tall so farmers get more tonnes per acre = more profit from hay, hence the reason why ryegrass is dominating the equine market.

Cotswold Seeds in the UK is a fab seed company that do many low sugar equine pasture seed mixes, ryegrass free. They really are an excellent company to deal with. Very helpful. Tell them your soil/climate type and they’ll help you to do a bespoke mixture for around 80 pounds sterlind for 14kg of seed - they call an acre seed pack. They also provide organic pasture seed mixes.
As an aside, i tend to use between 15-20kg of seed per acre, to get a really dense sward of grass, for heavy grazing animals. 11-14kg per acre is really Ok for overseeding a pasture with many bare patches, or establishing an acre you wish to cut for hay next year.


Due to ryegrass being sooo common in hay and haylage I only use haylage thats fermented the sugars so it reduces the sugar content. But it has to be fully fermented and cut late, otherwise its still high sugar. Not all haylage is made equal!
I use haylage alongside grazing, mainly due to mouldy hay issues in this damp 80+ humidity climate. Im on the search for small bale wrapped mixed species organic hay If anyone knows a supplier! (thunderbrook do it but its achingly expensive at 450 for 30 bales...ouch!)

As another aside, magnesium regulates the other main electrolytes, sodium, potassium....and many supplements have lots of sodium and small amounts of magnesium. Magnesium is required by cells in order to break down sugars and use it as fuel. If there’s low magnesium in the quine diet, fat pads and weight gain can result and lami. Hence why magnesium is often suggested as adjunct addition in lami-recovery protocols.
Hay pastures are often fertilised with NPK acidic salts. No magnesium is added. So many hays are high in potassium and low in magnesium.
A horse requires roughly 10-14grams of magnesium per day, and if in work, more.
Just like human athletes when exercising lose electrolytes, horses, being flight animals sequester minerals in order to run/flee....to enable fast delivery of glucose for energy to run. If we focus on minerals in their diet, we find we can help them keep a healthy weight, to prevent primarily magnesium depletion.

don`t know where you are but my son uses floods in newbridge, kildare, they have a decent choice of feed, haylage, also lots of feeds places around the curragh have harder to get feedstuffs or may know where you can source some

 

[Apercrumbie]

Cocksfoot and timothy are good seeded into a pasture, as theyre high in fibre. Cockfoot root system holds up to heavy grazing. Timothy predominant pasture root-system doesnt hold up to heavy grazing, so is best sown in with other species. The older fescues are ok....endophyte-free tall fescue is actually very long lush looking grass yet not too sweet.

Sweet vernal grass is a nice old species, costing 75 pounds per kilo of seed, compared with 4 pounds per kilo of ryegrass seed! (Now you see why ryegrass pastures are more common, theyre cheaper to sow!) Sweet vernal grass is called so because it gives hay a really nice sweet/fragrant aroma - its lovely, yet its not actually a ‘sweet’ grass nutritionally.

The traditional diploid ryegrass is ok, much less sugar in it than tetraploid ryegrass. ‘Italian ryegrass’ is mainly tetraploid, grows very tall so farmers get more tonnes per acre = more profit from hay, hence the reason why ryegrass is dominating the equine market.

Cotswold Seeds in the UK is a fab seed company that do many low sugar equine pasture seed mixes, ryegrass free. They really are an excellent company to deal with. Very helpful. Tell them your soil/climate type and they’ll help you to do a bespoke mixture for around 80 pounds sterlind for 14kg of seed - they call an acre seed pack. They also provide organic pasture seed mixes.
As an aside, i tend to use between 15-20kg of seed per acre, to get a really dense sward of grass, for heavy grazing animals. 11-14kg per acre is really Ok for overseeding a pasture with many bare patches, or establishing an acre you wish to cut for hay next year.


Due to ryegrass being sooo common in hay and haylage I only use haylage thats fermented the sugars so it reduces the sugar content. But it has to be fully fermented and cut late, otherwise its still high sugar. Not all haylage is made equal!
I use haylage alongside grazing, mainly due to mouldy hay issues in this damp 80+ humidity climate. Im on the search for small bale wrapped mixed species organic hay If anyone knows a supplier! (thunderbrook do it but its achingly expensive at 450 for 30 bales...ouch!)

As another aside, magnesium regulates the other main electrolytes, sodium, potassium....and many supplements have lots of sodium and small amounts of magnesium. Magnesium is required by cells in order to break down sugars and use it as fuel. If there’s low magnesium in the quine diet, fat pads and weight gain can result and lami. Hence why magnesium is often suggested as adjunct addition in lami-recovery protocols.
Hay pastures are often fertilised with NPK acidic salts. No magnesium is added. So many hays are high in potassium and low in magnesium.
A horse requires roughly 10-14grams of magnesium per day, and if in work, more.
Just like human athletes when exercising lose electrolytes, horses, being flight animals sequester minerals in order to run/flee....to enable fast delivery of glucose for energy to run. If we focus on minerals in their diet, we find we can help them keep a healthy weight, to prevent primarily magnesium depletion.

In one post you have taught me more than hours of internet research. Thank you so much, this is really appreciated.