Why does everyone love Edward Gal so much?!

[Clare85]

I've seen posts here and on social media justifying RK and how EG is the best rider, shouldn't be abused by so called keyboard warriors, etc as its bad for the sport of dressage. It brings to mind the support Lance Armstrong had in cycling when it was first mentioned that he was doping for success. Or the support certain trainers of Tennessee Walking Horses received because their horses were winning so couldn't possibly be treated cruelly. How the people willing to stand up and say I think this is wrong were called trolls and were just jealous, etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. There's plenty I wouldn't want to ride like either. But I breed dressage horses and it means I have an interest in their welfare and the direction the sport goes in. Would I give one of my horses to EG? Not in a million years. I would rather they stayed in a field and did nothing. The list of riders and trainers I wouldn't let near one of my horses has grown longer due to comments I've seen over the past few days. In some cases it's been very disappointing as I would have thought certain people knew better. Instead of turning on the thousands of people who were horrified by what happened at Aachen, trainers, riders and officials involved in every level at dressage should look at what is blackening the sport and take action.

I read on Facebook a comment by a noted dressage trainer that people who were criticising EG were just bitter and looking for something to be nasty about because they have no lives of their own. Seriously?? I have 8 mares in foal to top dressage stallions, I have foals on the ground bred to be future dressage stars. If the sport of dressage goes tits up I have no market to sell my horses to. But I also love my horses and worry that they may end up in a situation where they are mistreated in the name of "training". I'm also willing to stand up and be counted if that's what is needed for things to change for the better.

Are the means justified by the end? If you win at any cost does that mean it's acceptable to treat a living animal badly to achieve YOUR ultimate goal? Its most certainly not a case of ignorance is bliss because it's widely acknowledged that RK is detrimental to a horse's well being. The arrogance of EG, who hasn't even bothered to put out any sort of statement to justify his treatment of the horse is astounding. It seems that he just doesn't care. And that's just really very sad.

Like! Amen! I wish all breeders had this attitude.

 

[Wheels]

Great post elliefiz

 

[Doris68]

Well said elliefiz - excellent post!

 

[SaffronWelshDragon]

I've seen posts here and on social media justifying RK and how EG is the best rider, shouldn't be abused by so called keyboard warriors, etc as its bad for the sport of dressage. It brings to mind the support Lance Armstrong had in cycling when it was first mentioned that he was doping for success. Or the support certain trainers of Tennessee Walking Horses received because their horses were winning so couldn't possibly be treated cruelly. How the people willing to stand up and say I think this is wrong were called trolls and were just jealous, etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. There's plenty I wouldn't want to ride like either. But I breed dressage horses and it means I have an interest in their welfare and the direction the sport goes in. Would I give one of my horses to EG? Not in a million years. I would rather they stayed in a field and did nothing. The list of riders and trainers I wouldn't let near one of my horses has grown longer due to comments I've seen over the past few days. In some cases it's been very disappointing as I would have thought certain people knew better. Instead of turning on the thousands of people who were horrified by what happened at Aachen, trainers, riders and officials involved in every level at dressage should look at what is blackening the sport and take action.

I read on Facebook a comment by a noted dressage trainer that people who were criticising EG were just bitter and looking for something to be nasty about because they have no lives of their own. Seriously?? I have 8 mares in foal to top dressage stallions, I have foals on the ground bred to be future dressage stars. If the sport of dressage goes tits up I have no market to sell my horses to. But I also love my horses and worry that they may end up in a situation where they are mistreated in the name of "training". I'm also willing to stand up and be counted if that's what is needed for things to change for the better.

Are the means justified by the end? If you win at any cost does that mean it's acceptable to treat a living animal badly to achieve YOUR ultimate goal? Its most certainly not a case of ignorance is bliss because it's widely acknowledged that RK is detrimental to a horse's well being. The arrogance of EG, who hasn't even bothered to put out any sort of statement to justify his treatment of the horse is astounding. It seems that he just doesn't care. And that's just really very sad.

Hear hear! I've seen that post on fb and I just can't believe what tosh it is. How can you defend that? Are people just sheep?

 

[Alec Swan]

…….., etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. …….. .

No, and neither can those who judge them in competition, so does that make the Dressage Judge's opinion of no value? Being able to judge a horse's viewed demeanour has nothing to do with being able to ride, and everything to do with being able to see what's before us.

A good post of yours.

Alec.

 

[Cheiro1]

I've seen posts here and on social media justifying RK and how EG is the best rider, shouldn't be abused by so called keyboard warriors, etc as its bad for the sport of dressage. It brings to mind the support Lance Armstrong had in cycling when it was first mentioned that he was doping for success. Or the support certain trainers of Tennessee Walking Horses received because their horses were winning so couldn't possibly be treated cruelly. How the people willing to stand up and say I think this is wrong were called trolls and were just jealous, etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. There's plenty I wouldn't want to ride like either. But I breed dressage horses and it means I have an interest in their welfare and the direction the sport goes in. Would I give one of my horses to EG? Not in a million years. I would rather they stayed in a field and did nothing. The list of riders and trainers I wouldn't let near one of my horses has grown longer due to comments I've seen over the past few days. In some cases it's been very disappointing as I would have thought certain people knew better. Instead of turning on the thousands of people who were horrified by what happened at Aachen, trainers, riders and officials involved in every level at dressage should look at what is blackening the sport and take action.

I read on Facebook a comment by a noted dressage trainer that people who were criticising EG were just bitter and looking for something to be nasty about because they have no lives of their own. Seriously?? I have 8 mares in foal to top dressage stallions, I have foals on the ground bred to be future dressage stars. If the sport of dressage goes tits up I have no market to sell my horses to. But I also love my horses and worry that they may end up in a situation where they are mistreated in the name of "training". I'm also willing to stand up and be counted if that's what is needed for things to change for the better.

Are the means justified by the end? If you win at any cost does that mean it's acceptable to treat a living animal badly to achieve YOUR ultimate goal? Its most certainly not a case of ignorance is bliss because it's widely acknowledged that RK is detrimental to a horse's well being. The arrogance of EG, who hasn't even bothered to put out any sort of statement to justify his treatment of the horse is astounding. It seems that he just doesn't care. And that's just really very sad.

This is when this forum needs a like button!! Thank you

 

[Tnavas]

This is when this forum needs a like button!! Thank you

There is sort of, on the left is a star, click on it and rate the post.

 

[daffy44]

Fantastic elliefiz. I am nowhere near the league of EG, but I have trained my own horses to GP, and I couldnt agree more. If thats what it takes to be super successful, then I'm very glad I'm not.

 

[Booboos]

Actually there is, this link also contains links to further research. http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/08/07/hyperflexion-thumbs-down-equitation-scientists/#axzz3ivIq8Bcp

It states there are currently 42 published studies that focus on the effects of head position with 88% of them saying its detrimental.

Apologies I have now found the original link but it will take me a while to work through it.

 

[Booboos]

This is an interesting article and it does reference a study about nuchal ligament illnesses (sic).

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php

Difficult to know what to say about this as it is only available in German, was not published in a peer reviewed journal nor has it been picked up by anyone else to either replicate or refute.

 

[Booboos]

Actually there is, this link also contains links to further research. http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/08/07/hyperflexion-thumbs-down-equitation-scientists/#axzz3ivIq8Bcp

It states there are currently 42 published studies that focus on the effects of head position with 88% of them saying its detrimental.

OK I have only spend a very brief time on this but I can tell you what I think. this report, original here
http://www.equitationscience.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=136557
Is really, really poor science and atrocious literature review. I wish there was some formal way of objecting to it as it is really misleading.

Of the studies it so easily refers to some have nothing to do with rolkur or training methods, e.g. Beausoleil just says breathlessness is scary for animals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25004795
Some say the opposite of what is claimed by the report, e.g. Barton who says horses can see fine in all positions by moving their eyeballs (hardly a welfare issue)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19031516

And some are done on horses who already have problems, e.g. Van Erck who looked at horses with airway obstruction
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082441

This report is so misleading I wish there was some way of calling them out on it. A great example of how anyone with a keyboard can write anything they like.

 

[shortstuff99]

The report is originally a write up of a conference of the leading experts in the field not just someone who felt like doing a lit review. Referenced papers don't need to be only on the subject your studying. I've had published papers where referenced work is not on the species I'm even studying but you can link in what has been found in other species to support a finding. Also just to add at the end of the report in my original link it says 88% of studies found it to be detrimental not all of them.


The breathlessness study links in as rolkur has shown to restrict breathing in other studies and this one shows how breathlessness is a welfare concern and so creating it through training can never be excused.

Also your last mentioned paper says how flexing of the head can create the condition theyre studying (how it is seen more in dressage horses) so actually supports what the main paper is studying?

 

[tallyho!]

I can't believe the defence for rollkur here...

Dressage is here for it's own sake and it's very very sad to read. I feel ashamed to have supported those perpetrators of cruel training methods before I knew better. What's with all the proof finding? Can you not see? Go into any tack shop and you will find the most expensive is the most cruel. Crank cavessons; thick triple ply leather reins with non-slip material so it's impossible to give... super strong spurs. All to control massive strong crackers horses?

Hot horses "bred" for dressage... dressage "type"... it's killing the TRAINING & RIDING of horses. It's as if the world forgot the whole point of it.

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm more than a little surprised that there are those who, despite their angle of approach, need learned papers to support their, often opposing, cases, when it must be obvious to most I'd have thought, that to watch a horse performing disciplines which are so alien to its normal movements as to be uncomfortable at best, and distressing to witness at worst.

I also wonder, with our continuing demand for ever more exaggerated party-pieces, if we one day won't have horses being encouraged by devices which are hard-wired in to their neurological systems, and which will deliver electrical impulses to further enhance their distortions. I wouldn't laugh too loud anyone, you can bet that it's been considered.

Alec.

 

[Cortez]

Alec, there are already electric spurs and reins used in training western horses (illegal, of course, but they do exist). I believe that there are no lengths to which some humans will not go to aggrandise themselves, which is why those who try and step in should be supported.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Booboos, are there any papers that are peer reviewed etc... that show that Rollkur does no damage to the horse physically, causes no discomfort and that it is not distressing (for want of a better term) for the horse either? If not, then surely all we know is that there is a lack of research into it?

From my observations, it is my opinion that Rollkur is at the very least an unkind training method.

 

[shortstuff99]

Now this is an oldish article (and it's not peer reviewed but please don't dismiss it!) that I find is pretty thought provoking on the subject http://dressagefortherestofus.com/cruelty-paradox/

 

[Casey76]

Rollkur is used and continues to be used because it works. It allows that stupendous lift of the shoulder and foreleg... is it right or ethical: no. It also perpetuates the mismatch between the fore and hind quarters. Often these horses have overly muscled shoulders, and a comparatively weak hq, in trot (for which horses are being purpose bred to passage rather than trot), you end up with significant DAP, unclean/broken lines and hqs which are trailing.

M. Gal is an exquisite rider, his timing is perfection. The tests he rode on Totilas, especially the pi-pa transitions are some of the cleanest, most technically correct transitions ever recorded. Do I agree with his training methods: no.

 

[tristar]

we don`t need papers to tell us something so obviously cruel is wrong!

we are very experience riders trainers and can form our own opinions on effective methods of training, from breeding our own horses through rearing youngstock, into backing and training.

no wonder those horses are so wound up, they are all ridden with spurs, and all I can say is if I can get a horse to work in front of the leg without spurs, and they are supposed to be so wonderful, ban spurs, because I can tell them its well possible.

different horses have eyes set in different positions giving them various ranges of vision
so rollkur will affect some more than others.

I`ve never seen a horse at liberty chose to take up rollkur position of the head, all the work done by a dressage horse is supposed to originate from the horse`s natural movements.

well said tallyho.

 

[Barnacle]

Peer reviewed article on what horses think of rollkur: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159108002876

It's only one article and it is not on top dressage horses but it is one strand of evidence that is pretty clear-cut.

As for why scientific research is needed, humans have a very flawed conception of the world and we readily ignore information that does not suit our beliefs. Science is our way to overcome that. Scientists are people too (I am one) and we sometimes make mistakes but on the whole we make progress. It makes me very sad how opinionated and subjective the equestrian world is when in fact many of the debates we end up in have either been settled or could be settled by science if only there was interest. I don't think it's a good idea to think you can judge how a horse is feeling by "looking in its eyes" - for one there is research that shows you can't! (Or at least people cannot reliably judge whether a horse is fearful or not. They hide their emotions just like we do.) - but I do think the rollkur debate should be put to bed. There is enough out there to say it's harmful and enough top riders who do not use it.

 

[Sags_Deer]

I don't like him at all

 

[YasandCrystal]

I'm more than a little surprised that there are those who, despite their angle of approach, need learned papers to support their, often opposing, cases, when it must be obvious to most I'd have thought, that to watch a horse performing disciplines which are so alien to its normal movements as to be uncomfortable at best, and distressing to witness at worst.

I also wonder, with our continuing demand for ever more exaggerated party-pieces, if we one day won't have horses being encouraged by devices which are hard-wired in to their neurological systems, and which will deliver electrical impulses to further enhance their distortions. I wouldn't laugh too loud anyone, you can bet that it's been considered.

Alec.

Well said Alec. I cannot condone anything forced these days which is why the teachings of Charles de Kunffy and Herschmann appeal wholeheartedly to me. I love the classical teachings, no force, just balance and correct riding and patience, all skills sadly no one seems to respect these days. The judges are as bad as the public and reward poor and cruel training.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Alec, there are already electric spurs and reins used in training western horses (illegal, of course, but they do exist). I believe that there are no lengths to which some humans will not go to aggrandise themselves, which is why those who try and step in should be supported.

Cortez incredibly you can buy a 'spur guard' which is a fabric strap to go around the horse just behind the girth to stop the rider marking it with their Spurs!!!! What a crazy world!!

I would go as far as to say if you can't lunge your horse just off a cavesson with no other straps or side reins or devices you are not training it correctly, but many would argue with me.

 

[Marydoll]

OK I have only spend a very brief time on this but I can tell you what I think. this report, original here
http://www.equitationscience.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=136557
Is really, really poor science and atrocious literature review. I wish there was some formal way of objecting to it as it is really misleading.

Of the studies it so easily refers to some have nothing to do with rolkur or training methods, e.g. Beausoleil just says breathlessness is scary for animals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25004795
Some say the opposite of what is claimed by the report, e.g. Barton who says horses can see fine in all positions by moving their eyeballs (hardly a welfare issue)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19031516

And some are done on horses who already have problems, e.g. Van Erck who looked at horses with airway obstruction
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082441

This report is so misleading I wish there was some way of calling them out on it. A great example of how anyone with a keyboard can write anything they like.

I dont need any peer reviewed research to tell me Rollkur is bad for a horse, i just need to look at the horse and listen to it trying to take a breath, sometimes you just need a set of eyes and some common sense

 

[tallyho!]

Could we have a real battle re-enactment? And test out the supposed training of the horses...

Modern hot looney "dressage" horse + trainers/riders/whatever VS classically trained normal horse (any permitted) + classic rider/trainer.

Just wondering which side would have full (preferably light) control of the horse with just one hand.

The other hand would be holding the sword. Obvs.

 

[Cortez]

What, like this you mean

 

[dominobrown]

disagree with your definition of competent rider.

my neighbour did not ride for 20 years, is definitely incompetent, he rode round the arena on an advanced horse who is also a hot stallion, the horse just took him for what he was and acted accordingly and listened, and then cantered steadily around a small paddock, it was the first time the horse had ever been ridden by anyone else since he was broken in ten years ago, the trainer has total confidence in the horse because it is correctly trained.

Dressage= Training
A well trained horse should be easy to ride by a competent rider. i.e submissive, off the aids etc,
Totilas... yes he was a grand prix horse but Rath is not a bad rider in any means and really struggled... is that a well trained horse?

Everyone gave Rath a lot of stick when he got Toto and he didn't up to the point to my knowledge use Rollkur etc on his horses, his way of training and riding was more of the old school German ilk.

So yeh.. good question.. Why does everyone love Edward Gal and hate Rath? I know who I would send my horse to if I had too...

 

[Goldenstar]

Dressage= Training
A well trained horse should be easy to ride by a competent rider. i.e submissive, off the aids etc,
Totilas... yes he was a grand prix horse but Rath is not a bad rider in any means and really struggled... is that a well trained horse?

Everyone gave Rath a lot of stick when he got Toto and he didn't up to the point to my knowledge use Rollkur etc on his horses, his way of training and riding was more of the old school German ilk.

So yeh.. good question.. Why does everyone love Edward Gal and hate Rath? I know who I would send my horse to if I had too...

Not all horses go for all riders that just how it is .
The sharper the horse the harder it is for new riders to find the way to get the best out of the horse .
Horses are allowed to form preferences they are not machines especially when they have been trained by one rider for a long time it's not a reflection of their training .

 

[tallyho!]

What, like this you mean

Yes Cortez, exactly what I had in mind... your horse looks very light in the hand and has an unusual advantage against the rollkur horses... the exquisite example can see where it's going

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

love him?? who is he ?