Why don't more pure arabs make it to top level dressage????

Chloe_GHE

Chloe_GHE

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ok I know this may be a bit of an odd thought, but it struck me today that from my experience they have all the attributes to make fab dressage horses...

lovely paces
great cadence
very attractive
clever and trainable

so what is it that means people don't buy/train arabs for dressage?...why are WBs the prefered breed?...

I honestly can't think why.....can any HHOer fill me in?...

thankies :)
 
Ooh an Arab post :)
tbh I think two main reasons :
firstly though their paces are lovely IMO, a lot of judges are looking for that specific wb/sports horse 'look' and they are very different in their way of moving. And they do tend to be born a bit 'upside down' in the neck - takes a LOT of work to get a decent topline. My Arab is working novice/elementary and yet my 4 year old sports horse has more topline than him - he was just born that way. And J is good for an Arab!
Secondly (and a bit linked really) there is a bit of a stigma attached. I agree that they have fantastic trainable tempraments but MANY would disagree! I think it's all to do with how they are handled tho, mine was always treated by prev owners as a normal horse and consequently is fab. Some people wind them up on purpose and it's easily done!
It's a shame tho. You just don't see that many out and about as competition horses. Whenever I BE the commentators remark on him being a rarity as a pure Arab out eventing.
 
Conformation is not ideal, they tend to be croup high and are also very small, which is probably their biggest limitation?

I think they also have a reputation for being difficult to school (v.v. intelligent so get bored easily) but the few Arabs I've met were nothing like that so I wouldn't know.
 
You get Arabs in all shapes. Mine finds lateral work very easy, and has a good ability to both extend and collect within paces, and took to things like canter half pass like he had been doing it all his life - regularly gets 8s for canter work.
Now size - that's probably more relevant. Not many over 15.2 and dressage horses tend (not all I know) to be bigger than than.
 
ecrozier said:
Ooh an Arab post :)
tbh I think two main reasons :
firstly though their paces are lovely IMO, a lot of judges are looking for that specific wb/sports horse 'look' and they are very different in their way of moving. And they do tend to be born a bit 'upside down' in the neck - takes a LOT of work to get a decent topline. My Arab is working novice/elementary and yet my 4 year old sports horse has more topline than him - he was just born that way. And J is good for an Arab!
Secondly (and a bit linked really) there is a bit of a stigma attached. I agree that they have fantastic trainable tempraments but MANY would disagree! I think it's all to do with how they are handled tho, mine was always treated by prev owners as a normal horse and consequently is fab. Some people wind them up on purpose and it's easily done!
It's a shame tho. You just don't see that many out and about as competition horses. Whenever I BE the commentators remark on him being a rarity as a pure Arab out eventing.
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Yeah I guess, but I'm just thinkign back to one little chestnut arab I used to ride and she was heaven, so light, so clever, and jumped like a dream.

Despite their limitations if they are accurate and working correctly you woould hope judges would see the merit and mark them accordingly...
 
They have incredibly strong legs so doubt a bit of extra muscle would be a problem! Mine is 15hh and carries (not often I'll grant you) my 15stone other half. They carried Bedouin sheiks accross the desert for long enough ;)
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Conformation is not ideal, they tend to be croup high and are also very small, which is probably their biggest limitation?

I think they also have a reputation for being difficult to school (v.v. intelligent so get bored easily) but the few Arabs I've met were nothing like that so I wouldn't know.
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but surely on the size issue dressage is about one of the only equestrian sports where size isn't an issue eg not distances to fit in for jumping, no big fences to get over etc...

My ultimate dream was always to own an arab/irish tb event horse! :)
 
Croup high and relatively long backs and lower set necks. The things that make them able to carry Bedouins for hours in the desert :). Unfortunately these traits make it very difficult for them to engage and use their hind quarters in the way that a dressage horse is required to do.
 
Mine is just like that Chloe and up to 1m he is a fantastic little jumper - his size hold him back beyond that height really - he is supposed to be 15hh buy actually measured 14.2.
Some judges do judge what they see - and we win some classes - others, not so much! Off to the CTR dressage champs in a few weeks so hoping for an open minded judge.
FB is right though they are often croup high. Mine is and we have to work hard to get him looking like he is going uphill. Again my big youngster just looks that way naturally!
Eta Halfstep mine engages his back end pretty well but has taken a lot of work. Did a test the other day though and instrutor commented that she didn't theink his hocks went beyond a horizontal line down from the base of his tail once, so we have finally got that engagement.
Chloe, when OH's mare was retired due to injury, that was my plan. She was a 16.2 ISH a king of diamond grandaughter. I wanted to put her to an Arab called hTobago. He has a few foals out of sports horse mares and they are stunning. I wanted my very own tamarillo!
 
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I would also guess that they are essentially carrying/running horses not jumping horses. A horse that has powerful hind legs and the conformation to jump well often makes a good dressage horse I believe because of the natural added power behind. This is all just guesswork (am not a dressage nor a confo nor an arab expert)!!
 
ecrozier said:
Mine is just like that Chloe and up to 1m he is a fantastic little jumper - his size hold him back beyond that height really - he is supposed to be 15hh buy actually measured 14.2.
Some judges do judge what they see - and we win some classes - others, not so much! Off to the CTR dressage champs in a few weeks so hoping for an open minded judge.
FB is right though they are often croup high. Mine is and we have to work hard to get him looking like he is going uphill. Again my big youngster just looks that way naturally!
Eta Halfstep mine engages his back end pretty well but has taken a lot of work. Did a test the other day though and instrutor commented that she didn't theink his hocks went beyond a horizontal line down from the base of his tail once, so we have finally got that engagement.
Chloe, when OH's mare was retired due to injury, that was my plan. She was a 16.2 ISH a king of diamond grandaughter. I wanted to put her to an Arab called hTobago. He has a few foals out of sports horse mares and they are stunning. I wanted my very own tamarillo!
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Oh god I think I'm developing an arab crush, just serached on youtube for 'dressage arab' and they are gorgeous, just look liek they are floating.....awwwww I wish I had one I coudl ride........tbs are nice but it's fun to sit on something so fluid and floaty once in a while :)
 
Two names to search - hTobago and General Lee Gold - both belong/belonged to a lady who used to come on here. Tobago is the stallion I wanted to put our mare to but finances didn't allow. GLG is her previous horse, believe he evented to at least novice!
You can always have a go on mine if passing high wycombe! He's not as amazing as some but moves like he is on rails. Soooo comfortable.
 
Chloe, you are right, but a judge is a human being and will be impressed by a horse's 'presence'. A 17hh, well-muscled WB will be completely different to look at than a 14.2hh Arab, especially in a big arena in a huge stadium.....a smaller horse will inevitably tend to "disappear".

I think smaller horses can only stand a chance if their movement is utterly outstanding (think Satchmo who is only 16hh, or Furst Piccolo who is also around that height).
 
cool I will have a google

I used to ride out the arabs from the same stud Tamarillo came from and they were like hovver crafts just flew round the woods, over terrain my tbs would have landed on their noses, but they just cruised over evrything *sigh remenising (sp)*
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Chloe, you are right, but a judge is a human being and will be impressed by a horse's 'presence'. A 17hh, well-muscled WB will be completely different to look at than a 14.2hh Arab, especially in a big arena in a huge stadium.....a smaller horse will inevitably tend to "disappear".

I think smaller horses can only stand a chance if their movement is utterly outstanding (think Satchmo who is only 16hh, or Furst Piccolo who is also around that height).
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do you know what the biggest top level dressage horse is?...

I guess that makes sense it didn't occur to me about performance presence in the space etc
 
I just look for general lee gold and couldn't find anything which is annoying, I have a pic in a book about Arabs.
That's a brilliant description, hover crafts! That's exactly what he is like. Most comfortable canter and will canter over anything ground wise. Never bothers him.
 
ecrozier said:
Two names to search - hTobago and General Lee Gold - both belong/belonged to a lady who used to come on here. Tobago is the stallion I wanted to put our mare to but finances didn't allow. GLG is her previous horse, believe he evented to at least novice!
You can always have a go on mine if passing high wycombe! He's not as amazing as some but moves like he is on rails. Soooo comfortable.
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GORGEOUS - http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...=1t:429,r:4,s:85&tx=90&ty=63&biw=1280&bih=582
 
^^ Although optimal conformation for jumping and dressage are not the same, either. Many horses can do one thing well and the other passably, few can do both to the top end, especially now in the age of specialists. It's a matter of levers and angles, as much as anything. (Although, of course, the vast majority of us don't care what a horse is fully capable of because we're never going to need that much of them.)

On the Arab subject, they also tend to have flat croups and while they may be active in the hock it's not usually the round, under movement we want for top class dressage. As Halfstep says, they're made for a different task.

That said, a friend of mine had one trained to GP that could passage and piaffe all day. He was not typical of the modern show type Arab, though, being relatively heavy, compact and round in both his movement and his conformation. And I rode two very well bred colts (the stud fee for one had been something like $5000!!) who were superior athletes - one, especially, would have done dressage and the other jumped very well. I have to say, they weren't typical of many of the Arabs I've seen - maybe the REALLY good ones are out showing or doing more "Arab friendly" sports. They do have dressage at Arab shows in the US, though, and they participate in the USDF All Breed awards so there must be a fair number out their, doing it. I've also seen them doing dressage with kids, in pony classes, and I think you see more of them at the lower levels with smaller women, especially. A client of mine had one that was truly terrifying when they showed up and he ended up doing well at National shows. He also jumped a bit. I have to say, of all the horses I've ridden, he remains one of my favourites.

I don't think size is unimportant in dressage, honestly. Yes, you can ride a much smaller horse safely and successfully on the flat but it's a bit of a pain if you can't get your leg on properly and dressage judging, like it or not, is influenced by the whole picture. I showed the above mentioned Arab a bit but I know I looked like a pony squisher (although he was perfectly capable of leaping into the air even weighed down as he was :D ) and I think I would have struggled to have enough leg on for more subtle aids later on. That said, I LOVE riding them, hence my fondness for Trakehners.
 
Thanks for more info TS

I have to agree with you the nicest feeling ever was this fab little chestnut arab mare I was exercising, we got offered a place in a pat burgess clinic, I had never jumped her before and she just soared! we just kept coming to a parallel, she measured take off spot on EVERY time, and it just felt like no effort for her, must have finished off around 4ft she was on springs. I loved her so much I actually considered buying her till sense prevailed and I reasoned I didn't need a 14.2hh chestnut arab mare!!!!! Still think about that horse though......

think when I get too old and crook for eventing/competing I will treat myself to a lovely arab to cruise around the countryside on :)
 
Lol and my third horse is.... A Russian bred trakhener!!
Chloe don't wait that long, find a nice anglo next time! That was my plan untill roo turned up by accident.
 
I think what Tarrsteps said about modern 'show' arabs. They are really upside down, and I personally don't like them at all. (Though some of the ridden ones actually don't look too bad :) )
 
Chloe_GHE said:
How do you mean?...

Do you mean once they are muscled and conditioned the same as a 'dressage horse' they are over topped and their legs can't stand up to it?...
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Brilliant, sounds like a PRE, (andalucian )comment, more than an arab. (ducks(not quakingly))
My polish arab 14.3hh, jumped well over 4 ft with ease, and won every one day event you can think of in Devon many many years ago, his dressage was a doddle, his flying changes wow, he taught me passage. I was almost given him when he was 6 and recently gelded, and was demolishing stables and causing choas at his old yard.
He was in all the pony club teams and would rather DIE then give up, and he was incredible across country, never fell and never stopped he had 5 legs. (He hated showing and used to go to sleep in the line up if I made him do working hunter stuff).
I will add I am not an arab person at all, I think all types have there merits and talents and I have enjoyed riding them all in my time, Dales and Fells, Welsh cobs, Highlands, Saddlebreds, event nags Thoroughbreds, half shires, Hanno's, WBs, ISH. Loads of mixed as well. All very different and all good for something. Love them ALL!!!

By the way, the embryonic world of eventing here in spain is full of anglo arabs...
 
I never think of Satchmo as being small. He seems "big".

Carl Hester's new GP horse Uthopia is 15.3. that's pretty small! He also seems big in the ring.

Coming back to the original subject: Absent, one of the very best dressage horses of all time, was an Akhal-teke; of similar body type to the pure Arab.
Kronos and Absinth, both Trakheners with a good dollop of Arabian blood, were likewise exceptional dressage horses.

What has happened recently, is that the qualities of such horses has been purposely bred into the modern Warmblood, while the conformational drawbacks have been bred out.
But with the increasing influence of the TB in warmblood studbooks (Ladykiller, Lauries' Crusador et al.) and horses like Andretti H who is nearly full TB coming to the top, the Arab influence is being felt again! :)
 
Im not sure whether she counts, but I have a 75% black arab mare who is 14.2hh. Shes extremely talented on the flat, won pc open level, elementary etc. She does the most natural full canter pirouettes and piaffe and could go a long way. But she has one hell of an attitude which prevents her from doing 100% dressage-I personally think she gets stale- and sometimes she just sits down in a test ,wont canter 20m cirle without doing one time changes and wont just play game!!
Mabey its because they are very bright, and are better off doing range of disciplines where they cant think too much ?lmaoxx
 
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