Why dont they cradle horses coming round from a GA?

[Gingerwitch]

That American film clip looked a lot better - should send it to Leahurst!

As far as horse having a colic op - I have grave reservations too, but it is very hard to have the horse in pain and have the chance of a good recovery. I sometimes wonder if operations are done "because they can" rather than for the best welfare of the horse. Friend's horse went to surgery with colic, after a nightmare journey. Survived the op, only to die in the recovery room and the conclusion was that at over 20 he was too old to stand the procedure. Traumatic for the owner.

We are still guinea (sp) pigs - which is what i object too - if they said that the procedure was still in its infancy, and they were still learning - then you have the chance to make an informed decision. The vets - well the new ones certainly dont- explain this - its the get a box, give it this injection, do you know where your going, get gone - and its only me and the ym or yo that has stopped and made the vets explain in detail what the prognosis is - i will then take a horse but not till the owner has there eyes opened to what is going to be the horses life/there life for the next 12 months on recovery.

 

[Dab]

It's 1 in 100 but it's still too high

The 1 in 100 includes dying during the surgery, not just coming round from the anaesthetic.

The horse I had who had a GA would have gone beserk if he was constrained by a cradle. I would never have a GA done by any vet that did not have a fully padded recovery room covered by CCTV, though. They described mine as "feisty", so I assume he threw himself around a bit!


I'm with you on the colic surgery Gingerwitch, none of mine will ever have it done. And with everyone on insurance in general, it's now so unethical that it's causing horse welfare problems. There are many horses being put down because the insurance won't pay out if they go over the year end, and many others being put through unacceptable suffering to satisfy BEVA guidelines and Insurance requirements. I am so glad that it makes no economic sense to insure three.

I must have misheard my vet when he said 1 in 10, i did think that figure was rather high

With regard to how the horse behaves when coming round from a GA they are all different. My last horse apparently was a model patient and got straight up no problem, but he was generally a bit of a loon so we were surprised and grateful that he came around so well and didnt panic. Same, i would never consider GA if the practice didnt have a fully padded cell

With respect to colic surgery, i'd take each case on its own merits, luckily i've witnessed a few very successful outcomes. i.e. horse returned to the same level of work as pre-surgery and didnt colic again. The only non-successful colic surgery I was involved with resulted in the horse breaking its leg coming out of GA and this happened at the horsepital as mentioned earlier in this thread. It was devastating for all involved as the surgery had gone very well.

 

[Littlelegs]

I like kerillis idea of a sedative so the coming round is less traumatic. And with foals, is it not possible to put the dam in ready for when they come round? If it were big enough, a mare is unlikely to be hurt by a foal getting up, & the sheer presence of the mare would reassure a foal anyway. And with other horses, perhaps having a calm horse visible through a partition would make a difference.

 

[SNORKEY]

I thought that too when watching Rolf Harris last night. If the horse was supported with a sling then I don't see how they could cause themselves any harm, if they had their feet touching the ground and they came around slowley then surely that's better!

 

[ribbons]

I don't necessarily take what I'm told as fact anymore. Dab, you said "apparently my horse was a model patient and got up no problem" he probably did, but equally he probably didn't. If he thrashed and crashed about, falling and struggling but finally got up without injuring himself there is no way you would have been told. You would have only been informed if an explanation for injury had been needed. There is no point telling owners traumatic things they don't need to know and that's unfortunately a fact. It would be lovely to believe everything in life is as you've been told but human nature is what it is and on a need to know basis this would be considered an owner didn't need to know. The professionals often feel us horse owners are all fluffy bunnies who worry to much, I'm no fluffy bunny but what my horse goes through matters to me. Hence why I think this programme may just have caused a rethink by a lot of people.

 

[kerilli]

milesjess, that method with the ropes on head and tail for when they come round looks very good, I wonder if they are all as controlled as the one in the video?
must admit i have a HUGE problem with horses being anaethetised and then moved to surgery by hanging upside down, as in that vid. The horse's fetlocks and other joints are absolutely NOT designed to have the horse's considerable weight suspended from them upside down, not for a second. I wonder what, if any, damage might be done?
the surgery I use has a hydraulic bed in the recovery room (which is also the room where the horses are given the anaesthetic) which trundles them in and out of the operating theatre. far less potentially traumatic, surely?

 

[Dab]

Luckily, that particular vets practice where my horse under went his surgery, was one that i knew very well, including all of the vets and the way they do business, and many of the patients that they had treated, so i have no reason to believe what they told me was not fact

Another practice and another vet, i would be questioning the information more rigorously.

I haven't watched Rolf's programme, but it is a very good thing for owners to watch a surgery and what happens before and after, so they can make a better informed decision with regard to theri own horses welfare.

 

[kerilli]

another method, using a giant air-filled pillow as the floor of the recovery room, interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLydN-EJKYk&feature=related

 

[Dab]

another method, using a giant air-filled pillow as the floor of the recovery room, interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLydN-EJKYk&feature=related

Thanks for posting.

 

[Bright_Spark]

Wasn't it in the same show they had the wild ass sedated, then gave her something to bring her around, and she was able to get up much better than the poor horse. I wonder why they can't use a similar drug to help bring the horse around after GA?

It's possible they don't use a sling as it would be more for the horse to hurt itself on should they panic when coming round. The headcollar/ tail ropes seems like a good solution as they seem to help steady the horse rather than restrict them (if that makes sense?).

 

[Gingerwitch]

Well looking at some of these clips, i am a little surprised that we seam to use the finger crossed approach at Leahurst

 

[Orangehorse]

Very interesting to see the techniques used in the USA. Maybe a good subject for a veterinary conference?

 

[Bills]

Watching that programme 100% confirmed for me that I made the right decision to refuse to have my old man operated on when he broke his leg a few years ago. With his leg fully in cast and arthritis in both hind legs, I just couldn't see how on earth he would get himself up without either completely destroying the broken leg or severely injuring himself in some other way, also I just felt he was too old to be put through the stress of it all.
The vet dealing with him wasn't happy I decided against surgery but I have never ever regretted my decision.
When i was watching that programme I also was thinking along the lines of maybe another type of sedative to bring them around much slower so when they finally tried to stand they would be more steady on their feet, hence less crashing around, but maybe it isn't possible.

 

[mandwhy]

I thought that too, and dangling upside down looked rather strenuous on the joints!

 

[Clodagh]

I can't see why you would refuse to use insurance as it gives you control. I use insurance and still over ruled them when my mare was kicked and they wanted to take her for xrays (years ago, before mobile x rays), I had her put down and lost my money. They had though over the year before that paid out £5000 for a joint infection op that was completely curable and that I wouldn't have been able to do if she wasn't insured.

My youngster has just had a hock op that would have been outside my budget without insurance, I understand not having it if you have a few thousand you can find in an emergency but most people don't.

Agree, I wouldn't ever go for colic surgery though.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Count me as another one who will not do colic surgery.

I went to one of the premier clinics in America with a racehorse I galloped. He had broken his leg. He was woken up in a big float in a pool. Then was hoisted to recovery. A hood was used. Then into recovery where he could stand. He has attendants on his head and hind end after "landing" just to make sure he was ok. He did recover.

Terri

 

[Dab]

Well looking at some of these clips, i am a little surprised that we seam to use the finger crossed approach at Leahurst

yep and sad to see that things havent moved on in 5 years. It would be very interesting to see the stats on horsetipals around the country with respect to injuries and fatalities whilst coming round from GA.

Very interesting to see the techniques used in the USA. Maybe a good subject for a veterinary conference?

Totally. Is there anywhere in the UK that adopted any of these approaches, i.e.ropes and inflatable?

 

[Gingerwitch]

I am very sad to say i have never had a good feeling at Leahurst - i know vets have to learn which is why they wont let the owners hang around - but it very often feels like they are watching an experiment - and forget that we have feelings for the animals that are there.

 

[Twinkley Lights]

Glad it wasnt just me - it was awful watching - and if you listened to the vets they said that one had got straight up ????

Yes and it was far from it

 

[Dizzydancer]

My OH also wondered this while suffering me watching that program. It was concerning when the vets said t got up straight away.
Must be a sensible reason!

 

[Gingerwitch]

Watching that programme 100% confirmed for me that I made the right decision to refuse to have my old man operated on when he broke his leg a few years ago. With his leg fully in cast and arthritis in both hind legs, I just couldn't see how on earth he would get himself up without either completely destroying the broken leg or severely injuring himself in some other way, also I just felt he was too old to be put through the stress of it all.
The vet dealing with him wasn't happy I decided against surgery but I have never ever regretted my decision.
When i was watching that programme I also was thinking along the lines of maybe another type of sedative to bring them around much slower so when they finally tried to stand they would be more steady on their feet, hence less crashing around, but maybe it isn't possible.

I am pleased if it laid a few ghosts to rest for you, but sorry to hear about your loss

 

[SusieT]

Do you not all think that the anaesthetists have all had these ideas too? the reason there are so many techniques is because there is no 'gold standard'.
cradle-what happens if horse starts to spin round getting tangled? Or rears, or wants to move forward/backward etc? never mind that the sling is essentially crushing major organs and if the horse has a colic surgery wound it is going to be involved in the sling somehow. They are used by very few if any equine hospitals for recovery which should tell you something.

Water recoveries, fine, but the horse normally has to be re-sedated many times to be lifted out again, and gets the sterile wound wet and dirty.. And there has been staff deaths in these nad severe person risk due to the cables and close work to recovering horses in the water.

Giant air bed, ok, i don't know much about them. they didn't show much in that video though, just the early stages not the actual getting up!

Extra sedation-is given quite often. problem is you often already have a severely compromised patient-if you give them a sedation that lasts 30-45 minutes as most do you may well take them over the edge so they never get up.

Rope assistance-a tail is only so much use in a panicking horse!

So while it's easy to be arm chair critics, it's safe to say that the experts have already tried most of the so called techniques!

 

[Flame_]

Good post SusieT

I'm very glad my horse is fully insured and went through GA smoothly enough for hoof surgery even if it was possibly briefly stressful with some risk. Also grateful to the clinic he went to for not laying on the sort of drama-speak going on in the program.

ETA FWIW I will no longer use Leahurst for lameness even though its my local hospital, my horse went to Yorkshire.

 

[Bojingles]

I am very sad to say i have never had a good feeling at Leahurst - i know vets have to learn which is why they wont let the owners hang around - but it very often feels like they are watching an experiment - and forget that we have feelings for the animals that are there.

I have to say I felt the exact opposite at Leahurst. When my foal was taken there after prolonged scouring, I felt totally let down by the referring vets but Leahurst were marvellous. Far from rushing me away, they encouraged me to stay while an entire team carried out a myriad of tests including ultrasounds and all sorts. They also took time to comfort me and explain everything they were doing and why. And btw, she wasn't insured. They were happy for me to stay after they were settled in their stable and to be honest by the time I left it was because I was exhausted, not because I felt pressurised to leave. And in that time the foal was being constantly monitored. I must say I'm a bit baffled by the Leahurst-bashing that takes place after each of these programmes! We have the benefit of hindsight, hours to dream up the best scenario, not to mention the (dis)advantage of extensive editing!

 

[Gingerwitch]

I must say I'm a bit baffled by the Leahurst-bashing that takes place after each of these programmes! We have the benefit of hindsight, hours to dream up the best scenario, not to mention the (dis)advantage of extensive editing!

I wonder do Leahurst get to approve the programe prior to transmission ?

 

[criso]

- i know vets have to learn which is why they wont let the owners hang around - .

I don't think this is necessarily typical or because they are learning. My local is the RVC which is also a teaching hospital and I feel because of this they are much more open to people watching. Everything from a routine visit from your vet, to a full lameness work up, to ultrasound and xrays if they are using the room with the windows, is treated as a learning experience for the students which mean as owners you can listen and learn too.

I find the vets themselves better and communicating and very patient. I remember one time when my horse had suspected suspensory problems and they were xraying where the ligament inserted. While we were waiting for them to do the xrays, my vet picked up a skeleton of a horse leg and carefully went through the structures in detail with me and what they were looking for etc. Just as he had finished a student wandered in and asked the same questions I had been asking, so vet patiently went through the whole thing again.

Before they bought their MRI machine I had to take my horse to another clinic and I felt they couldn't get me out the door quickly enough.

I did mention in a previous post that they told me when my horse had GA that they do hand raise them with ropes there and believe it helps it gives better results but not sure of the actual stats and didn't go in to the exact technique used.

 

[Bojingles]

I wonder do Leahurst get to approve the programe prior to transmission ?

I wonder too. My guess would be that they may get to approve which procedures/events etc are shown but I doubt they get final say over the editing and dramatic voice-over. And let's face it, the mundane things which go well with minimal drama are unlikely to make the final cut.

 

[Venevidivici]

University vet schools are akin to human Teaching Hospital Trusts..the creme de la creme of senior vets and doctors,usually Professors and always specialists in their field are there,because they are teaching and at the forefront if their specialisms but not for only teaching but also performing surgery and assessing&diagnosing conditions,whilst being observed. I think your animal is at less risk of harm by a junior at a Uni Hosp than it is of harm in a smaller Hosp where fewer of the particular procedure are carried out. I noticed with the sinus op and the hoof op on the Rolf series,the actual op (or crux of the op)was carried out by a senior vet,not the initial treating one. Uni hospitals (&vet schools) have an enormous amount of money pumped into them for research-this attracts those creme de la creme professionals,to enable them to be at the cutting edge...(if you pardon the pun) That's not to say there aren't great vets,docs elsewhere but these places tend to employ the best,who just get better due to the number of cases they see-practice makes perfect

 

[Gingerwitch]

Maybe its different if they are dealing with a colic and preping for surgery ?

and would it be different if it were not in the middle of the night?

 

[Venevidivici]

Perhaps but (and I'm sure there are others on here who have first hand experience of this) i would think there will always be juniors on site at a place such as leahurst and always a senior vet on call-if an emergency looks tricky on initial assessment,senior guy will be woken,zoom over and probably arrive to a prepped,anaesthetised patient.