Why Grade a Stallion

M

maestro

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Following from the post below, it does lead me to wonder wether it is really necessary in this country to put yourself through the expence and stress of grading a stallion. Having done it and taken a stallion upto the top level of his game in the present system Im not sure it is. I know that is only half way there, the progeny have also got to prove themselves but there is only a small pool of quality mares to try and attract and sometimes hype and fashion seems to take over from fact. I have a super young colt by Proset out of a Rodiamant mare who is 2 now and about to start being educated but do I just create a glossy magazine about him or do I put us through it all over again?
 
One reason to grade a potential stallion is paperwork, as you have to have a covering certificate to register the foal with a society. Also if potential mare owners can see that someone else, including a vet has run their eye over a particular stallion and approved it, then there is a lower chance hereditary problems will be passed on. It however, does not give a guarantee that any graded stallion will produce you a top competition youngster, many haven't.
 
I think a lot of the time it shows how that the owner of the graded stallion is 'serious'. However, i know this may not be the only way of showing this! I guess this comes from my previous experience and the fact that there are many a people who have a colt, and just straight away assume he should be kept entire. it makes me sad to see stallions without verified/known breeding for sale as just plain riding horses. (i can think of 2 currently for sale like that)

I have used ungraded stallions, now, it may be bacause in the end the stud left a lot to be desired but i not think i would only ever go with a graded stallion. I have had issues registering offspring and TBH, was misled by the stud. THIS MAY BE A RARE CASE! i may have just been really unlucky. But it has put me off using an ungraded stallion in the future. I also think that a lot is put onto only using graded stallions on forums such as HHO, so if someone knew to breeding asked for advice, they would be steered to a graded stallion. There has been many a post whereby replies have been not to use an ungraded stallion.

What seems to me a little unfair about the system is that its how the stallion is on that one day..... Well, the progency might be exceptional yet that wouldnt really be taken into account. It would be nice if there was a shake up and the gradings were consistant within the stud books and maybe the stallion could 'move up' as he proved himself.

Its madness that for the money i have paid in stud fees, i could have gone to a graded stallion in the first place who might have had better long term prospects for the resulting foal.

Anyway, i'm going to shut up and let some more knowlegable people reply
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Oh god yes, it is bad enough without the grading system in place. With all due respects the UK have been left behind where dressage & SJ's are concerned & a lot of this is our lack forward thinking.

Not everyone has the experience necessary & mare owners should be encourage to use the best stallion possible to improve on their mare. Grading is a bench mark & when it includes vetting & a through approval of the stallion (which is why I think the 70/100 day tests are worth more) including temperment is so important. You can go & see a stallion & on the surface his temperment appears ok, but it may well change once under pressure. Soundness & temperment is the key factor & I would hope gradings would help to improve on these points.
 
As the owner of 1 graded Stallion and his ungraded son who is to young, I did not buy Ricco because he was Graded but because he is made correctly and his temp was right for a Stallion,and his exceptional bloodlines, I do not think it is always worthwhile grading as if you have a stallion at stud which is popular you will attract all types of mares from serious sports horse mares & unknown breeding mares if I had enough money I would shut my door to a lot of mares, as it is we do turn mares away,and people we dont like!
I dont really trust grading its too like showing open to bias and just not knowing what a boy will throw to the right mare.
Take our mares sire, Sarahs pride he jumped out of his field to cover Angrove Dance girls dam and he was then gelded.
He then went showjumping won the HOYS Puissance and the Cavan high jump and then got sold to the USA. Angrove dance girl is his only daughter no other living progeny, we have built a business on his bloodlines but he is lost now all that and he sold for more than most houses get sold for!
hindsight a useful tool.
 
my point is even some of the best horses in the world can slip throught the net. he did sell for $1,000000
 
if you wanted to breed an average riding club/happy hack, how would you do this if you insist on both parents being graded?

As all graded stallions are competition horses where do you find parents who produce something that will be suitable for the average rider who just wants to ride? Not everyone wants an olympic horse. How many of these stallions throw offspring that although very talented,are sharp and quirky and not suitable for everyday riders?

There are thousands of horses out there who are of unknown breeding, but does that make them useless? I don't think so. I'm sure their owners think they are worth their weight in gold.

In the old days before gradings who decided if a stallion was good enough to be a stallion? Surely this was when they say the offspring, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

So although grading might be the way to go for competition horses, I'm sure there will always be a place for a nice stallion with decent conformation who throws nice stock who can been ridden by average jo.
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It is not a case of them having to be graded, my response was to "wether it is really necessary in this country to put yourself through the expence and stress of grading a stallion." Indicating there is no need for grading, well there is. Mistakes happen there are those that will be missed. The fact that we have missed out on the chance to breed good competition horses because we have no idea how the ones that have performed were bred, therefore loosing the chance to replicate. As I have said if a stallion can not improve on the next generation then he does not deserve to stand regardless of whether he is graded or not. But to say never to bother with grading is taking us back years. Hells bells even to breed a decent riding club horse you should start of with a basically decent pair of horses. I really thought we had bucked the idea of standing non descript stallions, but no they are still there, cheap as chips churning out the same problems. I dont want to go into it again, but conformation can play a key part in a horses well being. By all means if you are inclined to use ungraded stallions that is your choice, but there are plenty that would rather have the comfort of knowing that a panel have thought the horse worthy to keep his balls! What ever you are breeding it should be to the improvement of the breed, & not just because you can.

If by using ungraded stallions you are going to loose the right to include their breeding on the next generation, of what use is that? I suppose then you can just make it up. I think that is what happened with a lot of the Irish horses, oh it is by KOD or Clover Hill. No proof, so there is every chance that some other stallion missed out on recognition. No horse has the perfect conformation & some are more suited to a certain discipline then others. So I am not saying it is wrong to use ungraded stallions, what I am saying is whatever happens we need to keep the standards up & that wont happen if we stop gradings all together. Do you know a bad horse costs no less to keep then a good one. The same goes for breeding it, you may save on the stud fee, but it could end up costing you in the end. Just look at the amount of horses who suffer unsoundness, very often related to the way they are built.
 
The trouble with some of the stallion gradings in this country is that they are way behind the continentals. In Germany there are pre selections from 100s of horses. they are vetted and X rays there to be seen Then the gradings take place over 3 days with lunging, trotting on hard surface then jumping a decent lane.
Then if they grade they later may go for 30 and 70 day testing.
To be honest until we catch up with them I for one will use german or Dutch stallions as they are bred from generations of good mares too.
 
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Following from the post below, it does lead me to wonder wether it is really necessary in this country to put yourself through the expence and stress of grading a stallion. Having done it and taken a stallion upto the top level of his game in the present system Im not sure it is. I know that is only half way there, the progeny have also got to prove themselves but there is only a small pool of quality mares to try and attract and sometimes hype and fashion seems to take over from fact. I have a super young colt by Proset out of a Rodiamant mare who is 2 now and about to start being educated but do I just create a glossy magazine about him or do I put us through it all over again?

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Yes I think you do need to grade him and also he will need to prove himself in the young horse classes as a 4 yr old. This may mean sending him to a 'name' -more expense!. There are so many people with 'well bred' colts out there that you may have to both grade him and do the glossy brochure.
 
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If by using ungraded stallions you are going to loose the right to include their breeding on the next generation, of what use is that? I suppose then you can just make it up. I think that is what happened with a lot of the Irish horses, oh it is by KOD or Clover Hill. No proof, so there is every chance that some other stallion missed out on recognition. No horse has the perfect conformation & some are more suited to a certain discipline then others. So I am not saying it is wrong to use ungraded stallions, what I am saying is whatever happens we need to keep the standards up & that wont happen if we stop gradings all together.

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Just to clarify and not to pick a fight at all, but just because a stallion is ungraded does not mean it has to be of unknown breeding. Many of them have full and verified parentage, which means in turn that usually, their youngsters can be registered with it too; they just haven't been presented for grading for reasons best known to their owners; it's not seen as a priority for them.
 
It doesn't seem to bother a lot of breeders whether a stallion graded or not. Ungraded stallions such as Primitive Proposal. Future Illusion, Classic Primitive etc are proving to be popular by their conformation, bloodlines and the stock they are producing.
 
I think the point is, a graded stallion has been graded on its temperament, confirmation, movement etc, an ungraded stallion, unless you are very experienced could have traits you wouldn't nessissarly want to breed with. (this isn't to say a graded stallion wont have traits that are unsuitable for your mare) but they are trying to rule out unsuitable stallions (que fugly horses of the day!)
Most horses you can buy in germany/holland etc wiether they are olympic potential or happy hackers will have papers and be by graded or accepted stallions.
I used to live in germany and didn't meet a horse who didn't have a full pedigree, wbs and hackers, compare that to the uk, how many horses have unknown pedegrees?
We are trying to improve breeding in the uk andd while people continue to keep colts entire and ungrade them when they are totally unsuitable for breeding (i mean bad temperament/ confirmation etc) we are never going to compete with the continent and produce good quality horses.
 
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We are trying to improve breeding in the uk andd while people continue to keep colts entire and ungrade them when they are totally unsuitable for breeding (i mean bad temperament/ confirmation etc) we are never going to compete with the continent and produce good quality horses.

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I'll give you fifty/fifty on those remarks, lol!

For bad conformation in graded stallions, surely the graders should have as much of the blame as the person who owns it? They should not be passing horses that have bad conformation, full stop and breeders should take some of the blame and not use horses with bad conformation either! If you don't understand what bad conformation is and means for the future of your foals, then please don't breed until you do learn the difference it can make to your youngstock.
From your comment it sounds as if you are saying we here, in the UK can't breed decent horses and the continental system is wonderful. Sorry, what a load of complete codswallop. We breed some of the best and soundest horses in the world now and long before the foreigners ever came onto the scene. I have lost count of the warmbloods I have heard of from well respected people like vets and blacksmiths that have soundness and conformational problems and can't lead a useful life because of them; how on earth is that an improvement? We have had a lot of dross imported into this country, both in the past and the present now, just because it has a continental label does not mean it is better, far from it and that is what you were implying.
 
I agree, and I am sure that a highish percentage of the various ailments that seem to crop up time and again in young riddden horses, either bred here or imported, are in WB. This is not a knock at WB, every horse I have is by a WB.
 
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if you wanted to breed an average riding club/happy hack, how would you do this if you insist on both parents being graded?

As all graded stallions are competition horses where do you find parents who produce something that will be suitable for the average rider who just wants to ride? Not everyone wants an Olympic horse. How many of these stallions throw offspring that although very talented, are sharp and quirky and not suitable for everyday riders?

There are thousands of horses out there who are of unknown breeding, but does that make them useless? I don't think so. I'm sure their owners think they are worth their weight in gold.

In the old days before gradings who decided if a stallion was good enough to be a stallion? Surely this was when they say the offspring, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

So although grading might be the way to go for competition horses, I'm sure there will always be a place for a nice stallion with decent conformation who throws nice stock who can been ridden by average jo.
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Around 1% of horses make it to Olympic level, which in turn means that the majority of Hanoverian, KWPN, Oldenburg etc etc end up in homes where they are used as leisure horses, show horses, for those who are happy to ride at lower levels and hack out.

The majority of horses that are produced via the biggest Studbooks in the world never make the Olympics, World Championships or National Championships. They are owned by people who want a good horse that perhaps has the potential to go on and win a bigger class if that person then decides to take that step.

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very talented,are sharp and quirky and not suitable for everyday riders

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Re the above, there are not that many really if you look at the percentages (and a lot is also down to the rider capability as well). There are known stallions who are not for the amateur riders, Jazz being one of them.

Most Studbooks HAVE to aim to produce Olympic horses (if they did not have these goals then they would not produce any), but they realise that the majority of these horses will never make it, so they have to produce horses that are suitable for the amateur market, and they are doing this. I know of many horses by graded dams and sires who are out at the local shows, or doing riding club etc.

I have several clients who have had "Heinz variety" horses, but they have seen that having a good horse, with good bloodlines that go back several generations is the way they wish to go forward. They now have a young horse that has all the potential for what they currently need, but also the ability to take them further if they so wish. I have had many remarks from clients when they say "gosh I never thought I would own a "proper" horse".......

And as someone else has mentioned.........look at the stud fees. How many ungraded stallions are advertising their stud fees at the same price (or more) as those that have been graded......quite a few. I know which stallion I would chose if I was looking at an ungraded stallion v's a graded stallion that both have the same stud fee.

We always speak about how much the Germans and Dutch are ahead of British breeding. The other thing you have to remember that there breeding lines have been going on for generations. So the children of these breeders also know the importance of graded stallions and mares. They have learned the importance of this philosophy in their breeding......and so the next generation take up the reins of their predecessors.........

Its not just that they breed good horses.......but that each generation learns and acknowledges the significance of breeding good horses, with good breeding lines. THAT is the difference between the UK and Europe.
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Although I know it is important to see a stallion jumping loose down a line of fences, or trot alongside a handler with its front legs kicking its nostrils, I feel that too many people are putting far too much emphasis on this as the be all and end all, that the stallion will be a world beater. This is just not the case, I can pull up 1000's of loose jumping and in-hand videos on various websites all over the net, showing unbelievable examples of horses trotting as if their lives depended on it and loose jumping phenomenal heights, but competition isn't about how a horse runs up in hand or jumps loose, it is about how a horse performs with a rider on its back, under pressure, at angles and difficult distances or in the case of a dressage horse, with distractions, music and precision.

That is why for me trainability and ridability is a much higher criteria in a potential stallion. I owned a mare that could loose jump anything you put her at, 1.80 no problem, she was the champion at her KWPN grading by a land slide, but she was a complete and utter B*tch when it came to being ridden and found it very difficult to work with her rider no matter how sympathetic, or understanding you tried to be.

So a stallion with a rider on its back, doing the job it was bred to do day in day out, is the sort of stallion I would want for my mares, be it graded or not.

So on this point, I do feel that on the continent they are far further forward with the selection of stallions than in the UK, who seem to put all their eggs in one basket, it is all about one day of a stallions life, the day he attends the grading. If it goes well, great, but if the day goes badly (and as we know with horses, it often does) then the stallion is labeled for the rest of his life.

Just my opinion
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Very well said Cruiseline , I have said time and time again the majority of horseowners in this country aren't professional riders but amateurs with ambition; they want rideable talented horses which stay sound and fit in with their lifestyles (ie often DIY livery).
Yes, there should be breeding for the best horses in the world, but also an aim to improve on the average horse in the UK, but without losing it's existing good qualities.
I am all for performance testing but properly, not just a loose school over a line of fences in an indoor school, plus perhaps a ridden assessment by a professional from the chosen discipline.
That would soon weed out the untalented or badly behaved bloodlines!
 
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I am all for performance testing but properly, not just a loose school over a line of fences in an indoor school, plus perhaps a ridden assessment by a professional from the chosen discipline.
That would soon weed out the untalented or badly behaved bloodlines!

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Yes, I do agree with this but it must be preceeded by a thorough initial assessment of conformation and corretness (not necessarily extravagance) and athleticism of paces beforehand -- either on the day for older horses or 12 months earlier for 3 year olds who would then be given limited covering permission if they were good enough. I say this because there are far too many stallions being kept ungraded that are not being presented until in their owners eyes they have enogh proven competiton success (a very variable feast this) to ensure that the grading judges recognise their talent in the sport concerned. A well-known international rider is often used to hammer the point home when the stallion is presented for graiding as well. Sadly quite a number of thes eungraded stallions -- but certainly not all and I am not even suggesting that -- will have serious conformation faults to which the proud owner will have been unfortunately yard blind. They may well have also passed them on to some/ many / all of the foals they have sired before being presented for grading and sadly whatever competition sucess the stallion may have had it will not correct either his own -- or his progeny's -- conformational, gait or long-term athleticism problems (let alone any temperament issues he may have) as whilst a stallion must always be a riding horse plus (the plus being the wow masculinity factor) even the best competition record in the world does not make that horse a worthwhile stallion. This is actually why I am so anti-cloning as it many of the animals selected to be clones has so far been rejected as stallion prospects at 3 years old (which is why they became competition horses in the first place) and there is no way of teling how much the gelding operation (it is not known as the gelding drug for nothing) improved their rideability and competition performance to way above what it would have been had they remained entire.
 
I noticed recently that a stud has in their news page about breeders (who are very much associated with a breeding organisation in the UK and its running) using their young stallion, which in fact failed its grading through conformational problems (judges comments not mine).

If those breeders don’t even believe in their own stallion grading system, then why are they a part of it? And what does that say about those who are running breed societies in the UK, and who advocate about the grading of stallions, mares and youngstock, when in fact they are very happy about using failed stallions (not even un-graded)?

To me I ask the question what purpose do they serve in the promotion of British Breeding and British Studbooks?
 
If those breeders don’t even believe in their own stallion grading system, then why are they a part of it? And what does that say about those who are running breed societies in the UK, and who advocate about the grading of stallions, mares and youngstock, when in fact they are very happy about using failed stallions (not even un-graded)?

Because they can. There are very few people who stick to their convictions & in some situations it is a good thing. I think the horse world if full of "Do as I say, not as I do" people.
 
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Because they can. There are very few people who stick to their convictions & in some situations it is a good thing. I think the horse world if full of "Do as I say, not as I do" people.

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Well perhaps that is then the answer to everyones questions then about why Britain lags behind, as you wont find breeders on the Continent doing the same, as they wont be seen to use un-graded or failed stallions when they have so much selection of good stallions that have gone through approval systems.

At the end of the day I just worry about my own breeding programme, and leave others to worry about theirs...
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At the end of the day I just worry about my own breeding programme, and leave others to worry about theirs...

Judging by the photo's posted of your foals this year, I would have thought there was no worrying on your part. They have all been stunning.
 
It seems to be a discussion that goes round and round in circles and yes I probably will go ahead, if the colt looks good enough and try and grade him. But I do feel as though Im a bit of a mug at times when there are quite a number of ungraded and failed stallions out there still pulling in mares. It accepable to a degree with older stallions, the stock on the ground should have proved them. But shouldnt we know better now and in order for british breeding to progress shouldnt the mare owners take a stand and only use stallion that provide proof of standards through proper covering certs.
 
But shouldnt we know better now and in order for british breeding to progress shouldnt the mare owners take a stand and only use stallion that provide proof of standards through proper covering certs.

In deed as well as stallion owners refusing to cover mares they know are totally unsuitable for their stallion. A first time stallion may have an excust because it wont become clear which types of mare he nicks best with until you see the offspring. In the past I saw far too many stallion owners quiet happy to cover mine & friends mares without even seeing a photo of them. The first stallion I used was an AHS prem AA who had been around for some time. There were plenty of his offspring under saddle from different mares. As his owner liked to keep photo's she was able to show me mares like mine with their foals by him. When I went to see him there was another ArabxWelsh with her foal & the improvement he had made clinched it.

Perhaps there is just not the time for some mare owners to spend the time researching & visiting different stallions. I do think though if you are new then you either look at graded stallions or those that have enough stock on the ground to make a fair assesment.
 
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