Why is finding a groom so difficult?!

Two Weeks is taking the biscuit, but does two days prove enough? It's a hard one, if expenses are paid I'm normally more than happy to work 7 days on that condition.

After all, I'm confident the employer will be pleased, I'm happy to complete 7 days with no "wage" for a job offer that could last years... But I tend to think in the long term not the short term.
 
I think i'd do a week unpaid possibly?
It would depend, my last job was ten mins away and live out so the expense of travelling and time for a week vs possibly getting a full time job out of it was worth it.
But i'm now looking at live in jobs to take my horses with me (at sj yards if anyone knows any rider jobs going) and it would be a lot of petrol money to go up there and work for a week if not going to even be paid for the trial if i didnt then get the job! On the other hand it would be worth it if the yard turned out to be awful!
 
I just think that an unpaid trial would set the whole thing off on the wrong foot and just devalues the employee I really think itstaking the p and I had no idea people did it .
 
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Goldenstar i'm not entirely convinced I agree with it, i definately wouldn't *want* to and haven't had to before, but I am desperate for a job and if it was the deciding factor maybe.

But then I don't agree with the £2.60 an hour apprentice scheme..
 
showjumpingfilly said:
Goldenstar i'm not entirely convinced I agree with it, i definately wouldn't *want* to and haven't had to before, but I am desperate for a job and if it was the deciding factor maybe.

But then I don't agree with the £2.60 an hour apprentice scheme..
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We have never had an apprentice as we are a small private yard and a lot of the time it's one groom on the yard and I think the apprentice scheme can be fair if you put an awful lot of time into the apprentice and that would be hard with my lifestyle although I would enjoy it with the right person.
My trainer has an apprentice who is coming to end of her time and she has gone from being very inexperienced to taking the young horse out to there first comps
As my trainer can't ride at the lower levels but they have invested a lot of time into her so I think shes had an ok deal and will be well set up to get a job on a good yard.
I was a groom when I was young and am so lucky that's life has worked out so I am on the other side now but perhaps it gives a bit more insight into what it's like to be ' the groom'
Also makes me a nightmare as my head girl once told another there's no short cut she won't notice nothing you do that she has not done or seen a groom do so watch it I giggled when I was told that.
 
Oh i definately reckon some get a good deal - lots of competition experience would be a big bonus for me.
But these apprentice schemes are taking over many many low level positions in all job categories. I just can't see how employers can expect someone to work a 40+ hours a week for not even £3 an hour. What's the point of NMW? I couldn't afford to live on my own being paid that - let alone have a car on top, or a horse. I think it's a way of cheap labour - not all the apprentice positions provide a qualification at the end of it and expect you to be there for 12 months+, all whilst only earning £5k a year! At least in my groom job I got £9k after tax, even if i still couldnt afford to move out!
 
As with everything finding good staff can be hard. We had several au pairs when I was young, and most of them were great, bar one who vanished when my parents were away! Thankfully grandparents were around, but she wouldn't have cared!
I have worked with horses on and off over the years, and would never do an unpaid trial, the most I do is ride out for the morning as my interview.
I've done bits of freelancing, and peoples attitudes very so much.
Must admit with a 5 1/2 day week I'm surprised you are struggling to find someone, can either of your last grooms not recommend anyone?
I would never employ anyone from college, including a 24 yr old, mainly because they seem to have no idea of how to work at anything other than snails pace!
 
I have to say i am really suprised you are having trouble finding someone for 5.5 days and 7 horses, but then i maybe i shouldnt be really. I was helping a girl who my friend used to teach as she had gone to the local equine college and needed some experience. I had offered to take her up, show her the ropes etc and let her ride my boy for experience and would sign something for her college to say she had done it. I was doing it more as a favour to my friend than anything else, but the girl was nice and i like helping people (noone gets anywhere in life without someone somewhere giving them a helping hand).

She came once, didnt offer to help muck out, didnt know how to put brushing boots on, didnt know what the chaff was, but thats not really her fault - its the 'equine' colleges....so i was teaching her as i went and gave her a lesson on my boy. This was to be an ongoing arrangement whereby i would pick her up, take her to the yard she would help me and i would teach her as she was helping and then give her a lesson on my boy, all for free.

She came once, kept arranging then cancellling last minute, several times i got in contact with her to see if she wanted to come up, everytime she would say yes great thanks, but then cancel saying she was out shopping or with her bf, but could she come next week!?

i was really incredibly shocked, my friend had asked me to help her as a favour as the girl had apparently asked my friend to ask me, but when it came down to it she couldnt be bothered to actually turn up.

As to the 'education' some of these equine colleges are teaching, well i was pretty shocked by her lack of even incredibly basic knowlege tbh...

maybe try getting an older person?, it might be as well to look for someone local more middle-aged person who doesnt need the live-in position?
 
Finding a good employee is a bit of pot luck, a bit like finding a good employer, but if the two find each other it can work really well regardless of the ages of everyone involved!

How big was your initial pool of applicants? Did you feel you were hiring the right person in the first place or did you have a feeling you were compromising because there was no one else available? When we were in the UK we would always put an advert in the local newspaper. For a couple of weeks I would spend most of my time answering the phone. About 50% of responders were totally lost causes (couldn't even get organised enough to figure out where we were in relation to them and if they could physically get to us to do the job!), about 25% were in the 'possible if desperate' category and 25% were good enough to interview. That gave us about 5 people to interview and face to face we always ended up with a favourite and 1-2 possibles. A two week (paid!!! What's with the unpaid stuff?! Not sure that is even legal!) trial later and we could both decide if it was working out. Last groom stayed with us for 4 years until we left for France and she was in her early 20s but was lovely, responsible, competent and a joy to work with!
 
Am I alone in finding the fact that most people seem to agree that an equine college graduate is not up to running a small private 7 horse yard, a bit worrying?
Honestly whats the point?
If they are coming out that unprepared perhaps they should just get straight into the work place and actually get some practical skills from day one?
 
No your not alone, but sadly it comes back to my biggest gripe about the education system. We have now dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, rather than giving people something to strive for. I knew someone who ran a college, and she was told that due to the fact they would lose funding, they could not kick anyone off the course for repeatedly failing to turn up for duties. This means they learn that they don't have to work early on, and that shirking i the better option.
Sadly this attitude seems to be prevelent throughout life now.
 
When looking for a job, I used to turn up in boots and breeches ready to do a bit of work, or to fit in with employer's wishes, but no way could I take two weeks unpaid for anyone, it indicates desperation, and unemployment, not what many employers are looking for.
The main thing for me would be working on my own in a new yard, I would tend to feel a bit insecure if new employer did not stay around for a few days, as everyone has their own ideas as to how things should be done, ranging from full exercise and grooming with plaited straw beds down to deep litter [skipping out and topping up of water], haylage thrown in over the stable door.
I am currently in a yard with about seven horses and ponies at the moment, but they only need mucking out, fed and watered, plus daily turnout, minimum work for any groom, but if they were all stabled and in full work and the groom had to exercise/groom some of them , then it would be a full time job.
 
smiggy said:
Am I alone in finding the fact that most people seem to agree that an equine college graduate is not up to running a small private 7 horse yard, a bit worrying?
Honestly whats the point?
If they are coming out that unprepared perhaps they should just get straight into the work place and actually get some practical skills from day one?
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This would work if the employers were in a position to train, sadly many are only learning as they go along, there are still a few knowledgeable and experienced employers with top facilities and top horses, but they can pick and choose their staff, who get a good job with accommodation, in a fun environment, not the same as most jobs [dead end really] where it involves mucking out, feeding, and mucking out.
 
I don't understand why everyone is so upset about doing an unpaid trial? Ok I didn't do one in my current job (non-horsey :p ) but I have done MONTHS worth of unpaid volunteer work to get where I am, if you really want something these days thats what you have to do to prove it I'm afraid, I'm not saying its right.

For the one horsey job I did have (£20 a day as SJ travelling groom, barely enough to cover my bar bill ;) ) I did do a one day trial so she could make sure I wasn't a complete idiot, I must have poo picked 3 fields and mucked out 10 stables, plus lots of other stuff for 'free'.
 
Stencilface said:
I don't understand why everyone is so upset about doing an unpaid trial? Ok I didn't do one in my current job (non-horsey :p ) but I have done MONTHS worth of unpaid volunteer work to get where I am, if you really want something these days thats what you have to do to prove it I'm afraid, I'm not saying its right.

For the one horsey job I did have (£20 a day as SJ travelling groom, barely enough to cover my bar bill ;) ) I did do a one day trial so she could make sure I wasn't a complete idiot, I must have poo picked 3 fields and mucked out 10 stables, plus lots of other stuff for 'free'.
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No one who has a job can take two weeks off to poo pick for free! It would be different if they were getting some riding lessons in exchange for work done, but if they don't know how to muck out and need to "learn" this , they are not going to be any use left to their own devices, they are just not good enough to be left in sole charge of seven horses.
 
Yeah, great idea, be a general dogsbody for a fortnight,mucking out every day and lifting crap from a few fields, that'll show your skills off right enough :D
1 week paid trial, thats a fair trial, with more than a muck fork in your hand to give anyone who's interested a chance to show their skills and knowledge
 
Two points I'd like to follow up on ...

Firstly, and I'm not saying it's right, when I started out (early 80s) I had to take a part time wage earning job to fund myself while I worked free of charge at an SJ/eventing yard and later at a racing yard/stud. It was more like they were doing me a favour giving me work experience (with occasional perks) than that I was working my socks off for them - but it taught me several things, not least that I really really wanted to work with horses :)

I too am now on the other side of the fence, as an employer for the past 20 years, and I despair at the calibre of people who apply for grooming jobs. The best one I ever had was a retired hunt groom who lived in the local old people's home and was desperate to still be doing something. She could no longer ride but by golly could she work hard on the yard :D

I would never expect anyone to work unpaid, but I try to provide a fun, varied and interesting job, I think I am a very fair person to work for, I am more than happy to train people as they work, but I do expect people to actually work for the money I am paying them, and not swan about doing beggar all, and having "favourite" jobs and horses - the last one I had wouldn't sweep up at all, and there were some horses she clearly disliked and wouldn't have anything to do with, calling them spiteful nicknames and being rough with them :( I am now happily staffless and life is a lot more pleasant for me and the horses!

Secondly, I can assure people that equine college education is genuinely as rubbish as people are saying, produces practically no employable people, and I really wouldn't set much store by any reference supplied by a college :(
 
I didn't say two weeks, but a day or two is fine imo. As I say, I did months of voluntary work to get into the sector I'm in, as well as a BSc and MSc - sometimes you have to graft to get somewhere if you really want it.
 
I have to say, i'm quite surprised and also a little offended that everyone is writing off college students. I went to college and did horse management after working at a livery/riding school for two years. Unfortunately for reasons beyond me I had to move out and support myself so a job in the equine industry just didn't pay enough for me to do that.

A 5 2/2 day job with just 7 horses sounds a doddle for me and I would jump at the chance for a job like that, and I KNOW I would work hard in that job. I would also be willing and confident enough to do a few days unpaid trial to prove that to an employer.
 
kittenkent said:
I have to say, i'm quite surprised and also a little offended that everyone is writing off college students. I went to college and did horse management after working at a livery/riding school for two years. Unfortunately for reasons beyond me I had to move out and support myself so a job in the equine industry just didn't pay enough for me to do that.

A 5 2/2 day job with just 7 horses sounds a doddle for me and I would jump at the chance for a job like that, and I KNOW I would work hard in that job. I would also be willing and confident enough to do a few days unpaid trial to prove that to an employer.
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7 horses a day could be a doddle, but it could also be full time hours. It sort of depends on expectations and standards.

To do 7 horses (5 working) properly, including working them, proper grooming/trimming, tack cleaning & keeping the yard immaculate is a full time job.

Obviously if they are just lobbed out in a field, brushed off and mucked out with the yard quickly swept that is different ....
 
Five horses in proper work seven to muck out is too much work to be done within normal full time hours. Five horses one hour exercise equals five hours plus grooming tacking up cooling off rugging etc . Seven stables to do plus yard work depending on type of yard bedding how long you have to lead them to turn them out it's a lot of work to do to a very high standard every day.
Even allowing for riding and leading and lunging you will be pushing it all day every to do it really well and when you add in extras like clipping mane pulling etc its a lot.
And if you make the assumption that when OP was away it was over a week was the groom doing seven days without a break people just won't do that nowadays , nothing excuses what OP's last two grooms did but as an employer I know you have to be a realist about how much people can get through on a ongoing basis there are times here when we are under time pressure and you are running from job to job but IMO you need to be careful that grooms are not expected to do this all day every day if you want to have happy people with you long term.
Thinking about this OP might be better to look for two or even three part timers to cover the work this will open up a pool of older people my head groom is a married mum and started with us part time when her child went to nursery and you can get really experianced people if you can be flexible I had some great part timers who where older and whose life meanlt they did not want a live in type job. It takes more management from you but it can work and means you can up hours when you are way.
 
Having been a groom have to agree with the opinions of college leavers. It's fine if they have previous experience & went to college for the qualifications, but met plenty who find it a shock that horses are harder work than own a pony days at a riding school followed by muck out & hay 2 horses in 45 mins at college. Don't mean op is at all unrealistic but someone with the experience i've mentioned above would think it is. 7 horses with 5 in work sounds fine to me, a sole charge groom should be organised enough to arrange a routine to get it done. Op- if possible put previous groom recommends its always appealing. Know your last 2 wouldn't but could get your 2 long terms too. I'd be happy if you gave me that option at interview stage. Have to say without that in the ad I'd be cautious about an employer I'd seen advertising twice in a short space of time.
 
Have you any friends that are horsey? all the yards ive been involved in is through word or mouth. What area are you?

I would say the amount of hours are fine i used to do two different yards 10 horses in total.( one of the yard just mucking 5 out other all day car including poo picking and tack cleaning) No riding was involved thank god and yes hard work however very rewarding at the end of the day seeing them all tucked up for bed lol.
 
The college leavers I have come across have had ridiculously inappropriate knowledge, e.g. spending a lot of their time writing a 20,000 word dissertation on laminitis but having no practical handling skills for anything above the least challenging type of horse. The last college student I spoke to said she did 4.5 days of theory and 0.5 of a day practical at a yard because the college couldn't find enough placements for its students!
 
One of my YO is only 17 and at college (Although she has been riding and around Horses before she could walk) And she does 7 Horses daily in the mornings and 5-6 evenings. She is very reliable and I trust her completly with my Horse, wether thats general handling, stable chores or riding (all which I have asked her to do before)
 
College was fine for the people who had horses and could ride when they first went there. It didn't turn unhorsey people into horsey people in two years.

OP, I'm a groom, keeping an eye out locally for another perfect job to come up but I have a job that no way would I give up to do a trial period somewhere else. You won't get employed people willing to do two week trials, let alone unpaid trials.
 
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