why is my horse getting lamer!!??

0ldmare

0ldmare

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On the 31st August I noticed my horse was unlevel out in the field and called the vet. They thought it was most likely slight laminitus so she was taken off the grass and has been in my (very very soft) school ever since

In the school she was sound without pills. Vet thought it would resolve in a few days. Horse had danillon and acp and pads on feet. A week later I took her off the powders so I could see if she was still lame. She was just v v slightly pottery. So vet came again and did x-rays which showed zero rotatio in one foot and the tiniest level possible in the other. It also showed very thin soles and she was very tender when pincered.

Horse spends another week in the school and is now very lame. I certainly don't need to take her off the pills to see if she's lame!! This morning I go to feed her and she's lamer than she's ever been. Basically shuffled painfully to her feed bowl. It just seems to be progressively and slowely getting worse! How can that be? She's not going for a blat round the school and never has.

I just don't get it! Would bruised soles get worse before they get better? (It could be bruising rather than lammi, or a combination)

Any ideas welcome, I'm so devastated that she's getting worse :( :(
 
Well if she has had any form of laminitis, no matter whether there has been rotation, I would say the movement of having a whole school to walk around in will not be helping matters and also having taken your horse off the pain killers to see if they are still lame. I am not having a go at you or your vet but ideally your horse should have confined movement in a stable on a soft deep bed, ad lib forage to eat (unless overweight) and be on painkillers that are stepped down gradually depending on your horse prgress.
If your vet has said that she is still quite senstive to hoof testers then in my opinion she is a way off being right yet and needs more treatment.
To give you a comparison my lad was 'not quite right' and a bit pottery last year in Aug and the vet and my farrier put it down to an abscess. So I was told to poultice and he could stay out on a smaller paddock unless the poultice came off. I decided that just to be on the safe side I would fence an area off in front of his field stable and he could stay in there instead on hay. This went on for 3 weeks with everyone saying abscess and then I said enough is enough and took him for xrays. It transpired he had laminitis and no abscess and that the foot that I had been poulticing actually had 12 degrees rotation! In effect we had wasted 3 weeks of treatment for laminits and left him walking round a pen on fairly hard ground, which probably contributed to the worsening of the condition and rotation. Once he had been treated by the vet farrier with heartbars and came home he was 100% better on his feet, but I was told to keep him on 3 bute a day for at least 3 weeks and then the vet came out to check him before I was allowed to down the dosage. After this time he was still a little sensitive to hoof testers on the worse foot but was allowed to drop down to two bute a day for a few weeks...and so on...
Sadly laminitis can start off mild and get worse...it is the nature of the beast but I would think your horse would be better off confined more and given regualr painkillers and plenty of forage to keep the gut moving.
 
laminitis is by definition inflamation of the laminae - the solar corium can be hust as affected

The thin soles - the solution is really in the management and diet.

Shoes off so the load is spread - shoes provide peripheral loading and do not stimulate all of the structures of the foot. Yo may also find that he is better on a firmer than a very soft surface - we say "suportive" - soft is sometimes not supportive

Diet - no sugars, very little grass preferably very little long stalky stuff than very little short grass, no cereals, and you need to make sure that minerals are correct - particularly coper, zinc, magnesium

Exercise and movement - thin soles need stimulation, not cossetting, so to a certain extent a bit of movement is necessary to make this happen. Ifg you're unhappy wiht that then try boots which will protect, but also allow movement.

Try asking your questions in the UKNHCP forum where the folks really know hooves!
 
I agree with the above- its good the horse can move about! Its sounds great that he's in a school so off grass but can move about so not locking joints etc. You've had an xray already so know the hoof issues. I agree, shoes off, boots on. How old is horse? I would soak hay given unless pony is lean. Bute for a few days to take the edge off but not necessarily to irradicate pain, that's what stops the horse moving about too much. Is the pony laying down much?
 
Thanks for your replies, the vet was also of the view that she should be stabled until she came out and went in the school. Her comment was that it was so soft that it would probably be better than the stable (plus horse stresses in the stable and box walks and weaves so not ideal. In the school she doesn't move much at all really (evidenced by poops all being around the haynet and school still showing rake marks elesewhere!)

I agree taking her off the powders in retrospect was a bad idea, but at the time she was absolutely sound on them so I really needed to see what she was like without them :(

What I just don't get is why she is worse :( I'm beginning to think there is yet another possible thing wrong with her beyond the *possible* lamminitus and bruised soles.

Thanks for the info re the other website, I'm going to go and take a look.

As its been said so many times before - IF ONLY THEY COULD TALK!
 
Have you soaked the hay for a long period of time to remove sugars? Or have you got hay that has been analysed and been proved to be a low sugar variety? Some hays can actually be quite high in sugars (it is dried grass after all!) and can cause problems in laminitics.
 
OP - your post mentions 'going to feed her'. I wonder what you are feeding her?

Don't be overly trusting of Laminitic Trust recommended products, many of these are too sugary/starchy for sensitive horses. Some also have mould inhibitors - and again these cause problems for some horses.

Also have known abscesses caused by over zealous use of hoof pincers. So you may find after all that your horse will develop one, even if there wasn't one there to start with.

You mentioned little/no rotation. Rotation is at the extreme end of laminitis and I wonder why vets are so hung up on it. To be honest the signs of lami are all there well before rotation ever becomes apparent. If you get to rotation, someone, somewhere hasn't been doing their job. A little harsh for a Sunday morning, but true, unfortunately.

Agree re soaking the hay - 12 hours and then rinse it through with clean water. And the soaking water must be fresh everytime and plenty of it. You may find that initially your horse will reject it. So build up the soaking time. Perhaps start with just one hour.

Movement within comfort levels is a good thing as is keeping the foot properly balanced.

You also mentioned thin soles. This alone can be cause for soreness - especially if the horse has been moving around on stoney/hard or unlevel ground. I would recommend that you find out why the soles are thin. This is common, but not healthy or normal and can relatively easily be fixed with good diet, exercise and appropriate foot care. Shoes and pads are not recommended :-)

For an example of a very lame horse with extremely (think 2-3 mm) thin soles (caused by poor shoeing) look at this horse. Now sound and hacking out happily.

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/time-x-time-x-plus-6-days-check-out-toe.html

I'll be posting new pictures of this horse's feet in a day or two.
 
She's getting no grass at all and is on last years hay, which is frankly barely edible. Not dusty but very coarse - to the point that I'm having to stuff a few handfulls of new hay to make her eat it. (But I do just mean literally handfuls of new to make it smell nice)

She's on 1 x Danillon in the morning and one in the evening, plus aspirin every other day and acp twice a day.

Shes a horse that likes to have a kip and does lie down in the school but usually only at her 'usual' sleeping time which is about 10:00 -11:00 every day - she's a creature of habit bless her :)
 
Poor lovey.

So she is just on last years hay, but not soaked? It could still be very high in sugar. Once dried (so it's hay) grass stops respiring so the sugar level stays the same. Stalky could be Rye grass (?) do you know what species are in the hay? Rye grass is typically very high sugar, often as much as 30%. Even with soaking it is hard to get Rye grass hays down to an acceptable sugar level.
 
LucyPriory said:
OP - your post mentions 'going to feed her'. I wonder what you are feeding her?

Don't be overly trusting of Laminitic Trust recommended products, many of these are too sugary/starchy for sensitive horses. Some also have mould inhibitors - and again these cause problems for some horses.

Also have known abscesses caused by over zealous use of hoof pincers. So you may find after all that your horse will develop one, even if there wasn't one there to start with.

You mentioned little/no rotation. Rotation is at the extreme end of laminitis and I wonder why vets are so hung up on it. To be honest the signs of lami are all there well before rotation ever becomes apparent. If you get to rotation, someone, somewhere hasn't been doing their job. A little harsh for a Sunday morning, but true, unfortunately.

Agree re soaking the hay - 12 hours and then rinse it through with clean water. And the soaking water must be fresh everytime and plenty of it. You may find that initially your horse will reject it. So build up the soaking time. Perhaps start with just one hour.

Movement within comfort levels is a good thing as is keeping the foot properly balanced.

You also mentioned thin soles. This alone can be cause for soreness - especially if the horse has been moving around on stoney/hard or unlevel ground. I would recommend that you find out why the soles are thin. This is common, but not healthy or normal and can relatively easily be fixed with good diet, exercise and appropriate foot care. Shoes and pads are not recommended :-)

For an example of a very lame horse with extremely (think 2-3 mm) thin soles (caused by poor shoeing) look at this horse. Now sound and hacking out happily.

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/time-x-time-x-plus-6-days-check-out-toe.html

I'll be posting new pictures of this horse's feet in a day or two.[/QUOTE

Thanks for that - she is being fed a scoop of hi fi lite with about 1/4 scoop of Dobson & Horrell Leisure Mix just so there is something to put her powders and acp into.

Last time the farrier was out (about 6 weeks ago) he took LOADS off the bottom of her front feet. I questioned him because he was hacking off so much and he said she had excess growth. She was footsore when I put her out that day and I said as much to the farrier. He was very dismissive and to be fair she seemed fine when she got onto grass. It was about 6 weeks later that this happened. The farrier was not my usual as mine is long term sick...he wont be returning!! She's not shod at the moment and hasnt been for 12 months
Click to expand...
 
Hmm - heresy to say this I know, but if she was sound before the farrier visit and lame after - might there just be a link?

Mind you - loads off could just be wall height - which would be entirely appropriate as peripheral loading is not a good thing. And if she was walking on her walls this could easily disguise sensitivity in the solar corium.

But if loads off means he cut into the hard sole plane (known as 'live' in some circles) then this is not so good.

Pictures please or pm me if you wish. I too am a southerner.
 
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she is being fed a scoop of hi fi lite with about 1/4 scoop of Dobson & Horrell Leisure Mix just so there is something to put her powders and acp into.
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Hi Fi lite has alfalfa in it. This causes some problems for some laminitics and some problems for horses that are not laminitic. So unless desperately keen, I don't recommend it. Also this product has 'a low sugar coating'. What they mean is that it has reduced sugar molasses. This is still high sugar and molasses can in any case be a problem, regardless of the overall sugar content.

Re the D&H - don't know the specifics for this, but check that it has no molasses or sugar/cane syrups or mould inhibitors. D&H used to be pretty good, but they have started sneaking sugars into their products of late (or so it would seem).

If you just want something to put your powders into try mixing a small amount of soaked Kwik Beet with a handful of mixed herbs (eg nettles, burdock, rosehips, milk thistle). This is very low sugar and the herbs make it tasty without adding nasties. And if you are enterprising you can get the herbs for free (let the nettles dry out first).
 
I'll take a photo of her worst foot as soon as she gets up (kind of dont want to disturb her, which is sad of me I know!)

Yes I absolutely agree with you that there is very very likely a link - its the vet who is more convinced its laminitus than me.

The hoof the farrier cut away was not around the walls, although he did that too, it was the underneath. Lots of it. He said she had too much. As I said I did question but he basically made me feel like I was being interfering owner. Wish I had stuck to my guns now instead of letting him carry on :(
 
I would take her off the mix, stay clear off cereal if it is lami getting worst.
Normally they have to stay stabled as if they move around the laminae will break down more and rotation will begain. Also people don't relise that irreversible changes occur in the first 12 hrs to the laminae as the blood supply is cut to this area hence why it's so important to get the vet and get the ACP into them. ( not always a case off somebody not doing their job) I wouldn't think the moving about is helping at all if it is lammi she needs to be kept still to provent the pedal bone rotating.
The reason why vets are so kean to x ray is because you need to know what rotation if any has occured which reflects how your farrier trims the foot. It's not a waste off time. Most vets then burn the x rays onto a hard disc for your farrier so he can look and trim the foot as needed ( going by the pedal bone prosition) it's not as simple as cutting the heel down which grows more, the bone needs to be trimed RIGHT to line the pedal bone up with the hoof wall if rotation has occured.
Also many ponies will cope fine untill the damaged hoof hits the bottom off the foot which than courses more problems because the damaged foot and streached White line is at the bottom and brings a lot off pain and hoof wall will crack back and be very thin so a lot off people will put shoes on to get the pony past this stage else they will be very very sore and hardly move.,putting the shoes on will help the pony cope until the damaged foot is gone.
 
Out off interest has she had lammi before? If so how long ago?
I only ask cause once the foot has had lammi they will grow far more heel and sole than a normal pony, my lad had to have his soles cut back every 3 weeks as they grew so much and weight bareing on the soles is very painfull.
When you take the pics have a look to see if there are any rings on his hoof, do they get wider at the heel? This will be interesting even if you don't think he's had lammi before cause sometimes it can go un noticed if only a very mild attack but hoof should tell the story. But if it was the case your farrier should pick up on it
 
No she's never had laminitus before. She is not a particularly good doer and usually is one to watch re losing weight rather than gaining it

Its been 6 weeks since she had her feet trimmed and the vet told me not to let the farrier do anything this time when he came out this time (different farrier!. I had him out to do my other horse and got him to just look at her feet to see if there was any line. He said there wasnt any sign of it at all
 
OK not the best photos, as she wasnt keen to have foot off floor for long and when I tried to clean it up she wasnt too happy,,..

Just to say, I do KNOW they are in a mess, she was due to be trimmed 3 days after she went lame and the vet is not keen on the farrier doing anything at the moment.

Hope the photos give some clues....

P1000324.jpg


P1000323.jpg


P1000322.jpg
 
My horsehad laminitis in June, i'm now feeding him Bluechip lami light. I was feeding Top spec anti lam. The Bluechip has everything in for a horses on restricted grazing. I followed all the advice off the internet and he is now sound and back in work.He had a months box rest and was sound off bute for a month before he left the stable. He had it in all feet, but worse in his hinds. He still has bruising and blood in his feet. But i have a good farrier who is sorting him out. Good luck with your horse its a horrible thing to be going through.
 
In case this helps - I have a TB who suddenly went lame with mild-ish lami a few years ago, at the grand old age of 6yo!. Poor doer, totally out of the blue, mid-winter in fact! She's now unable to eat anything 'normal' without going pottery again. I'll tell you what mine can eat without problems, in case it helps with yours:
- 24hr soaked hay, with water chucked away after first 1/2 hr and then replaced.
- straw
- purple (timothy) horsehage, or the blue one if soaked for 1/2 hr.
- spillers hi fibre cubes
- ERS dodson & horrell cubes (high energy, low starch)
- baileys outshine
- unmollassed sugar beet

That's it. Any more than 1/3 slice (small bale) unsoaked hay will make her lame, a shetland sized 'normal' feed will make her lame for up to 3 weeks.
 
If what you are doing to treat your horse isn't working (which it isn't) then you need to change your management.
If this is laminitis then your horse really needs to be stabled until she is happy without painkillers. Movement is clearly not helping her. If she won't stable then perhaps you could fence off a stable sized area in your school for her to see if that works.
You need to have your hay checked. Old hay doesn't automatically mean less sugar. In the meantime you need to soak it for at least 6 hrs IME. I would also cut out the mix and the HiFi and replace it for something like Fast Fibre which contains no mollasses or cereal.
Laminitis, if you catch it quickly and treat it right, doesn't have to be the end of the world.
Good luck:)
 
I'll check with the laminitis trust tomorrow, but the mix she is on (in v v small quantities to get the powders down her) is supposed to be - according to the makers - suitable for laminitics. Its D&H Leisure mix which has the following:

Est. Digestible Energy 9.5 MJ/Kg
Crude Protein 9.0%
Crude Oils and Fats 3.0%
Crude Fibre 20.0%
Crude Ash 9.0%
Vitamin A 15,000 iu/kg
Vitamin D 2,000 iu/kg
Vitamin E 250 mg/kg

Anyone know if this is high in anything bad for laminitics?

ETS I am now soaking the hay
 
Unfortunately the D&H website doesn't give the crucial information about the starch and sugar levels. I notice, however, that it says that the mix is 'low' in cereals (which are starchy) but unfortunately that doesn't mean it is free from cereals. It says it is 'oat-free' but this still means there could be wheat, maize or barley in it. You can email them to find out exactly what the ingredients and starch AND sugar levels are. With a laminitic that is not responding to treatment, you really want to eliminate as much starch and sugar as possible. The combined total of starch/sugar should be less than 10%, but the lower you can get it, the better. To give you an idea, the Fast Fibre recommended above IS cereal-free and has 5% starch and 2% sugar.
 
OP - thanks for the solar views. Interesting. Too much muck in the foot to see really, but the foot looks quite unhappy. There appears to be thrush, underrun heels, possibly some stretch and possibly damage to the water line.

Unfortunately all of these are so common some now think of them as 'normal' or even 'healthy'. They are neither of the latter two.
 
0ldmare said:
I'll check with the laminitis trust tomorrow, but the mix she is on (in v v small quantities to get the powders down her) is supposed to be - according to the makers - suitable for laminitics. Its D&H Leisure mix which has the following:

Est. Digestible Energy 9.5 MJ/Kg
Crude Protein 9.0%
Crude Oils and Fats 3.0%
Crude Fibre 20.0%
Crude Ash 9.0%
Vitamin A 15,000 iu/kg
Vitamin D 2,000 iu/kg
Vitamin E 250 mg/kg

Anyone know if this is high in anything bad for laminitics?

ETS I am now soaking the hay
Click to expand...

This site has alot of useful info on different types of feed and their actual ingredients:)
 
Hi,
Sorry to hear of your troubles, it's so difficult to know what to do for the best.
I don't have much experience dealing with lami, just trying to prevent my shetty from developing it, he is a classically gutty pig and as big as a house!!!!!! However, I did have one experience on a yard I worked at, a mare had 3 feet that were fien, the fourth was odd shaped. Farrier cut it to the shape of the others all in one go, which resulted in what was termed 'mechanical laminitis'.
My understanding of this, is that to change the shape of the foot radically all at once puts stress on the soft tissues within the foot, which can in turn of course result in structural changes. I would think this could include pedal rotation?
Just a thought, might help, might not. I know you can't change what caused it, but didn't know if it could lead to success in the treatment area.
If she eats from the floor, does she split her front legs like a foal? (either a little side to side, or more commonly one forward one back?)
 
TGM thanks for the info re feed, I will call D&H tomorrow and check it out with them. If necessary I certainly dont mind changing

Lucypriory - thanks and sorry the feet were mucky. I tried to clean them but she nearly sat down so I decided a quick snap would have to do! As I say she was due for the farrier and he was prebooked to come 3 days after she went lame so it never happened. I think they are quite shocking and kick myself for going with the new farrier (my old v v v v good one is long term sick). The thrush seemed to have happened quite recently - the rest is a combination of poor foot conformation - she always tends to go long in the toe and back on her heels - plus not very competent farrier I think
 
Sorry tennessee I must have posted at the same time as you. That's very interesting. She, even now, stands 4 square when she's eating. I know what you mean by standing with legs split, but she doesn't really do this

The vet who has been dealing with her is on holiday and isn't booked to see her until a week on wednesday but I'm going to call and talk to one of the other vets tomorrow. Can't just let her get worse :(
 
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