Why take the credit

carthorse

carthorse

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I know someone who has bought a nice horse but has not been doing very well at novice level dressage, The horse is not straight and has issues with its mouth, grinds teeth.
She always says it goes in a too advanced way and has sent it away to learn more advanced movements.She has it back to compete and does do better at a medium level than she did at novice but it still is not straight and still has bitting issues and tension.
My points are
a]should horses be doing well at higher level if they can't do well at novice level
b]why send it away and take the credit for the work done ,why not learn to do it together
c]why do horse that are tense and crooked get better marks at a more advanced level
d]why put a horse in a double when it has problems in a snaffle
Interested in your thoughts
 
I can answer a and b. A) Maybe the horse finds the more advanced movements easier than other horses do and whereas it is average at Novice it can beat a good Novice horses at Medium who have their limit. It's like SJing. A lot of horses will never win a British Novice but they will win a Foxhunter when the average horses who preform really well at BN have been weeded out and don't have the scope to jump a fox.

B) I can't see a problem with this. The lady obviously can admit that she isn't capable enough to train the horse, but if she can ride it at that level and do well what is the issue?
 
Fine but it is still tense and crooked and grinding and not getting higher marks [ 60% ish] but is getting placed because there are so few in the classes and she is talking like she has done the training but we know she hasn't in fact at one show it was warmed up for her and she got on just before going in. Just think it is shallow and she should really get it going sweetly first
 
Good luck to her if she has found somebody to sort out problems for her, and can afford to do this.
There may be a level of satisfaction in producing a horse yourself, but paying somebody else is no worse than buying a ready made horse that is already competing at a certain level.
Most of us produce our own because we don't have the financial resources to buy one ready made, amongst other reasons.
As for somebody else warming it up - why not?
 
I think people just enjoy different things - some like the schooling, some like learning together and take pleasure in progressing, and some like to just get on and win
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Isn't that her business, if she is happy with what she is doing, good for her, if she wants to send the horse away for some training, so what?? Perhaps they are working on the issues you have noticed. I got very scared at a competition, & my pony was being really naughty, so my taller friend got on & rode her in for me, does this make me a bad person? No, just someone needing some help. Sorry we aren't all perfect!!! My SJ trainer is coming along to help me with some issues which arise at shows, perhaps I should cancel him incase someone at my yard should bitch about me. Why are you so worried about what someone else is doing with their own horse? Just get on & do your own stuff, she obviously is, & its not really your business is it??
 
I do find it strange that dressage people send their horses away to learn new things - whats wrong with learning together? They are admitting they are not knowledgable enough to teach the horse correctly, which is fine, but why not LEARN - why be in such a hurry to move up the grades?
 
Sorry you don't understand the post, you would understand if you saw the problem and I think she is being taken for a ride a bit, she can't really afford it .It was supposed to be a discussion on horses that don't have correct basics being asked to do more advanced work in a double.
Sorry if anyone is offended ,it was never meant
 
I think sometimes people dont realise that doing things properly takes a long time - because its hard ! There is a great quote in a book I read a while ago (taking up the reins - a year in Germany with a dressage master) - he gumbles that 'everybody wants things instant, like coffee'
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I totally knew what you meant, it happens a lot round here. Its something I find incredibly amusing! My horses only go out when I think we are ready, sometimes we go well others we dont! But thats part of the fun! I have had other people ride them, mainly when I was on holiday, but sometimes I think they do more harm than good by trying to 'fix' a horse's issue in a week or two instead of allowing a problem to be overcome with patience.
 
I don't really mind this - each to their own and all that. I do find boasters amusing though, I've noticed it quite a bit at dressage - talking very loudly, name dropping and using the correct terminology but once on the horse they can't seem to put it into practice!
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a) I think it depends why they're "doing well" - if its a case of the horse's performance genuinely improving because it has more to think about then fine but in the case you've described it sounds more a case of the horse can "do" medium work but perhaps not particularly well?
b) I'm not sure about the taking credit part but I can see the use of sending a horse away in some cases. Personally I never would (at least with my current pony) because for me the enjoyment comes from it being my own work even if it is a case of the blind leading the blind!
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I'm not sure with regard to c and d...
 
I know what you mean Carthorse, I know someone that is kind of similar to the person you mentioned.
My thoughts on a and c are that to gain good marks at novice, the basic's need to be established and need to be good. The horse needs to be happy in it's way of going and be relaxed and through. That is what we should all work for at the lower levels so that when you add in the more 'fancy' movements, the horse is ready for them. However in the case of the person you know, as they haven't concentrated on the basic's enough before moving on they are getting 6's, which means they are 'doing' the movements but there is something missing, which is why they won't achieve the 7's and 8's!
My answer to b would be that this person probably hasn't ridden to a higher level so is getting someone else to teach the horse so that she can learn once the horse has. As it would seem that she wants everything now and not next month. I think if the basic's are there and you wish for someone else to teach your horse more advanced movements correctly then that is fine, as long as you have plenty of lessons to then catch up yourself!
As for putting it into a double bridle, well that's just another cover up of the fact that the basic's haven't really been estabilshed.
Basically she's just trying to short cut, which is fine but she'll never achieve good marks at the higher levels if she can't at the lower levels.
 
Its easier to hide straightness issues at a more advanced level, as most of the time you are bending and going sideways, not going in a straight line - hence why people do better at a higher level if their horse isnt straight.

Ive been told by my trainer i need to stop doing novice and miss out elementary as Archie will do better at the higher levels than he is doing at Novice. However i supose Archie is going well at Novice level now (he gets 68-72% most of the time now, saying that he'l probably go and get awful marks tomorrow!!) - but i dont plan on really doing elementary with him when my aim is for bigger things.

I cant answer the snaffle/double question as Archie will be kept in a snaffle for as long as possible.

Teeth grinding can be a sign of tension, but isnt always - Bloss used to grind her teeth and i was never marked down for it, she wasnt tense or in any form of pain she was just concentrating on me!!
 
When Osc is really relaxed and going really well and really listening to me (doesn't happen often!) he also grinds his teeth Tempi! I'm sure it's him just having to do something he shouldn't!!
 
Just wanted to add, that i dont see a problem with sending the horse for schooling and then learning with the horse - this is exactly what im doing with Archie. I dont want to mess up his training so he spends a week every 2months with my trainer 'learning' then i 'learn' with him in my lessons.
 
Well I actually think it's a good idea to get someone else to train your horse if you have never done it before and you can afford it. It's much less confusing for the horse if you are both not trying to learn together. As for the marks well 60% at any level is only "satisfactory", so it does look like the judges are still picking up on the problems it's just that the horse is now doing more advanced movements so able to do a higher level test. As you say it's not really doing better there are just less in the class.
 
At first I really regretted putting this post on but thanks to your replies I have chatted with my friend and she is going to take a step back during the winter and work on relaxation and forward and straight and have some lunge lessons and generally enjoy herself again.
She wasn't really happy letting someone else take over and was being pushed into spending more and more. She was more than worried about things that were going on out of her contol.
Thanks for your comments ,she has a lovely horse but it does need a bit of time
 
Sorry if I sounded a bit fierce! I guess its because I've been having a few problems with the yard know alls poking their noses in, when I'm happy with what I'm doing. I now realise that you posted out of concern for your friend being taken advantage of, & I agree absolutely that it is important to be established at the lower levels before moving up if you want to improve those marks. Same goes for jumping, which I now fully understand is why I was struggling so much. Since investing in some proper lessons with a very patient coach, hey presto!! But if one more person whispers, "Is she going off for ANOTHER lesson? We're doing Badminton (whatever) next week, & we don't spend all that on lessons" I'm going to scream!!! I LOVE MY LESSONS, I ENJOY THEM IMMENSELY, sorry rant over!!! Ps whoever said it, yes a double will hide all sorts of sins, that's why we're still in our snaffle!! Well done for helping your friend, don't want to come to my yard do you?!
 
Hey ,my daughter loves her lessons as well and I think she would be in heaven with a lesson everyday.Good luck lessons are the best thing ever and you don't have to compete to be happy and doing well.No one has to prove anything.
 
Thanks for that, completely agree, I'd love a lesson every day too, though my husband would probably divorce me!! We do compete a lot too, off to Addington for Novice dressage tomorrow, HT next weekend, busy busy!! I think people do feel they have to prove something, rather than simply setting their own goals & ENJOYING THEIR HORSES, isn't that why we spend all that money???!! Have to confess that the day I got back from my sj lesson & casually announced that we'd jumped round a BN standard course I was feeling more than a bit smug, previously we were struggling to not spook over poles on the ground, oh & we got our first canter half pass in our LESSON last night too!! (More smugness) XXX
 
well, i wouldn't get an ounce of satisfaction from it, personally. can't think of anything worse. and tbh it is bad judging if it is getting decentish marks at Medium when it is still so incorrect. if the basics aren't right, it shouldn't get good marks.
 
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tbh it is bad judging if it is getting decentish marks at Medium when it is still so incorrect. if the basics aren't right, it shouldn't get good marks.

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Haha I had to laugh at that, my instructor vv old school FBHS! tells me when we are working on a movement 'that would get you a 7, but I would only give 5 because .......' as she says there is a lot of judges who are actually quite inexperienced and dont see what is truly happening!
PS to kizzywiz we also mastered canter half pass left last week and it was all our own work!!! Very satisfying!!!!
 
Absolutely fatarse2, can't say it's completely mastered, but definately coming along, but it feels so cool when it's all your own work, with the help in the lessons, rather than someone else doing the work & just jumping on & saying, "Oh we can do half pass now!" Thats why I'm so excited about the jumping too, Paul's just miles too big to ride her, so once again its all my own work, with him helping on the ground. Let us savour our achievements together!!!
 
Well done you, I'm dreaming of half pass with a change at the track, not bad for a £500 gypsy pony!!! I would struggle to send her away for training, everyone would be too big for her!! We ended up having a lesson at Paul's fri & sat last week, his lovely wife Karen said I could have left her there overnight, but I didn't have any of her stuff with me, good job as it then transpired that she would have stayed out in a small paddock, fine, except she would have limboed through the fence into their immaculate garden with statues, how embarassing would that have been!!! I'm sure their grand horses would never dream of such a thing!! Will lie in bed tonight & dream of ..... 2 time changes!!!
 
Ok in the spirit of competion at least you bought yours!
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Mine was given to me as an emaciated racing reject!!
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I now have 3 with a combined value of £0 !
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Keep up the good work it is definitely the mst rewarding way of doing things
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PS wouldnt send mine away he would miss me too much!
 
Just goes to show then, you don't need to spend pots of money to have a horse or pony you can enjoy, & they can even be trained to a good level!! You keep up the good work too, if I ever get those changes, will be on here bragging immediately!
 
Depends on the horse I suppose.

For example Will sounds exactly the same as your friend's horse. Tends to go tense, grinds teeth, goes crooked etc but is nearly 16 and will never change. We've tried everything as have had him 8 years but he can lengthen nicely and go sideways at home.

My view is I now want to push him further and see how he does. Not because I'm not expecting high marks but need the practice with him so I get things right with the youngster. That seems sensible to me, I'm realistic about his abilities and hang ups and have accepted I've got to work with what he has to offer.
 
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