Why the low head carriage - always wondered?

Am I the only one who thinks that they don't look switched off, and actually they do look a lot more relaxed than a typical ring of our show horses?

I might be the only one, but I like it. :o Must admit I got too bored to watch the whole thing (what is with all the interruptions?!), but the horses I saw were not on the forehand, but in self carriage just in a different head position.

I think the way we brits class as "going in a showing manner," whilst aesthetically pleasing, isn't actually the way a horse would go for long periods of time without a rider.
 
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I honestly don't see what's so wrong with it!? I have only watched this one stallion so not really in a place to judge but I found it really refreshing to watch. Here is a lovely relaxed, loose horse, stretching down over his back into an allowing contact, even in trot and canter he remains calm and seeking the contact. Think how much healthier and stronger a lot of horses in this country would be if they were encourgaed to stretch down in the same way, rather than working in a tense or hollow frame with riders asking them to come up in front without understanding how to bring them through from behind. It is nice to see the rider sitting lightly and allowing the horse to use his back rather than creating tightness.

Yes the rider does need to sort their position out over the jumps but other than that I think it is a very pleasing video to watch!

~ (Prepares to be shot down!) ~
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that the horse looked pretty chilled and relaxed. Agree about the riders position when jumping however the horse looked like a lovely ride, jumped well, met every fence correctly and kept the same rhythm all the way around - thats the point, isn't it?
 
I've watched the classes in the states and in the UK - I've also seen how many of the horses are 'trained' for it. Not for me. I agree with the posters who think the horses look dull eyed - they have tuned out at best. Many are very lame including class winners.
 
The low head carriage was desirable when the ranchers wanted to move their stock around - a high headed horse could mean that cattle got excited, so they wanted to keep everything calm.
As the industry evolved, one of the foundations of western riding is that the horse has a level head carriage BUT should be elevated in the shoulder - NOT ON THE FOREHAND!!!
If anyone has ridden a well trained western horse (as opposed to a horse that is just ridden on a long rein and allowed to slop along) they will know that it is a great way to ride! The horse is in self carriage, using his back and hind quarters, light and incredibly responsive in the head and shoulders, and will guide with the lightest turn of the riders head and a subtle weight shift, stopping in a stride at the lightest cue. If a horse is travelling on the forehand, the stop is a real give away - if he's not using his back end the stop is hard and propped, and the rider tips forward, instead of the horse melting into the ground.
As for the horses looking depressed, we want our horses to be calm and relaxed, and not over reactive and fidgety. I suppose it depends what you are used to seeing.
 
i understand the way its good for driving cattle and thats how it evolved etc. but this is called english isn't it or hunter so shouldn't they b trying to show a height carriage more suited to hunting/jumping? also i know they are supposed to be moving from the hind quarters with an active shoulder WITH the low head carried but i just don't see that in these horses
 
Ah, the wonders of context on the internet. There seems to be some confusion . . . the videos referenced are of AQHA classes (APHA and AAHA are similar), which are a very specific type of showing and have little of nothing to do with even similarly named classes in other areas and/or the "Olympic" disciplines. The majority of people who show horses in the US DON'T ride like this and to assume they do would be rather like looking at vids/discussing Ridden Ponies and extrapolating that that style of riding is the standard in the UK or assuming that double bridles are what everyone aspires to ride in. Those horses, going like that, would not be competitive in the big Hunter classes (although some might be if they went differently) at recognised shows.

Tbh, I've worked with AQHAs and I'm not that keen. But at least I've been there and can judge relative to other experience. And they do SOME things very well and thoroughly in that world. I will say, however, that the top ones go like this naturally and easily. As in ALL disciplines the horses that "suffer" the most are the ones less suited that people, ego driven, (and usually not top flight themselves) try to force into an unsuitable way of going.

America is a big place and there are clearly lots of people riding well. Heck, at the last WEGs there were CANADIANS who beat some of you at your "national" Olympic equestrian discipline. ;) p) And if you want to see some impressive riding it's worth a trip to the winter shows in Florida - there's a good reason some of your top SJers go there.

Which is not to say there aren't all sorts of things in riding that aren't to everyone's taste, but it's not my experience it's a purely national phenomena.
 
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Not sure we should throw stones, just think how uncomfortable many of 'our' horses are being hauled into a false outline by a novice because they want to acheive what we think is correct!

Not saying we want to go along with our horses ploughing a furrow in the school, but somewhere in between is probably much more natural for the horse

I've noticed that a lot of american show jumpers ride in a way with much less contact and actually have to admit I quite like their style
 
I agree, OM, I have watched quite a few hunter jumper vids on Youtube in the past and was quite impressed. The horses go beautifully, so relaxed and obediant, the riders sit quietly without hauling or hooking and they are ridden in simple tack, snaffles only, cavessons only and yes, a standing martingale, but of the ones I saw, they were all very loose (FWIW, I think all this anti-standing martingale business is a bit OTT, they are a useful piece of kit if used and fitted properly, like most other pieces of tack). And unlike our show horses, they are not overweight. Their tails are also too long though!

For me, the low head carriage of the QH is a bit extream and unattractive, but the horses do look comfortable and relaxed, a far cry from the poor old TWH, but that's another thread.
 
cloball said:
i understand the way its good for driving cattle and thats how it evolved etc. but this is called english isn't it or hunter so shouldn't they b trying to show a height carriage more suited to hunting/jumping? also i know they are supposed to be moving from the hind quarters with an active shoulder WITH the low head carried but i just don't see that in these horses
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Exactly! That's the mystery.

And yes, I hate hate hate those super-long tails. The proportions look all wrong.
 
As a child I rode in hunter and equitation classes in the states, and then at 19 I went back and spent a year grooming for a show hunter yard as well. None of out horses worked in this extreme outline, but they were lower than is typically seen in the UK.

All I can say is that the horses out there who could maintain the same relaxed outline and rhythm, both on the flat and over fences, regardless of the muppet on board, are highly prized. My employer thought nothing of purchasing horses for $250,000 from Europe and selling them on for more. I have to say - they were an absolute delight to ride. All 10 of the horses in my care were light and soft in the hand, energetic and engaged. I loved them to bits (and I have never been a huge warmblood fan til then). I have never ridden horses like it before or since. Even with an average rider like me they were tremendous and it felt so easy and effortless to get them to go well.

I will admit though, that the hunter circuit out there is mind numbingly boring in terms of the jumping courses set up, and the horses can get a bit brain dead if not allowed to do anything else. Ours were stabled at the same show ground for 8 weeks, but we went out of our way to find them turnout paddocks to roll in and we would hack to a nearby rodeo arena to loose school in and let them have a buck and a kick.
 
Quite an interesting debate, not withstanding the usual clutch of totally dogged, prejudiced comments that pop up on HHO!
Having ridden lots of English horses and being a slightly reluctant convert to western, would just like to concur with Tarr Steps and others who have pointed out that top level AQHA showing is an extreme, much like top level BSPS showing (how long do you lunge the pony for before you let the child ride?) and dressage (rollkur debate, anyone? :D )
A visit to the AQHA world show reveals that many of the horses ARE overtrained, sour etc - I wouldn't necessarily say this is the case for the horse in the video. We soon decided which classes we wanted to watch, and subsequently focus our own competitive ambitions on.
A good western pleasure or hunt seat horse is, as Hen says, an absolute delight to ride - defininitely not on their forehand, although their naturally low head set makes them look as if they are (witness many dressage test sheets for my own QH!)
Some Americans (in all disciplines, dressage, eventing included) have different views on horses to ours - ie that they are expendable, a means to a competitive end etc, and that can result in horses produced purely for competition and thus becoming automatons.
Fortunately we are not in that situation over here - our western horses are perfectly capable of a buck, a spook or an over enthusiastic whizz! But their main asset is that they are by nature calm, trainable and keen to learn, which makes them great fun to ride.
Don't knock it till you've tried it - several of the WES instructors have schoolmaster horses available for lessons, come and see if you think they are 'dull' ! www.wes-uk.com for a list
 
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FFS! It makes me so cross! If you want a horse with a high tail set, get an arab! All this 'nicking' muscles and keeping your horse stabled with a cage on it's tail is terrible and unkind at the very least.

i'm not surprised though... just look at what they do to Great Dane's ears.
great%20dane.jpg

^ take one nice dog, snippy, snip the ears, bandage with splints and...
great_dane_02_puppies_for_sale.jpg

^ hey presto! You can be the proud owner of this mutilated but now 'pricked eared' animal. :(
 
Is that tail docked? 'Cause if it isn't, it must be bent at a right angle, which as the tail is an extenion of the spine, must be very painful for the horse. And what happens when it poos?
 
Eek, how did we get on to saddle seat tail setting? Now, if you want to see some odd Breed classes . . .;)

Most QH's effectively have weaves added to their tails - small amounts of hair are braided in, a bit at a time, to add length and bulk. Like everything else people get obsessed about, it tends to get "if a little is good, more must be better" and some of them end up with ridiculous looking tails that drag on the ground. I've seen horses stand on their tails in the ring! Even their natural tails tend to be very long and thick, usually kept in bags unless they're in the ring.

There are also false tails that people use in other types of showing (except dressage, where it's forbidden now) that come in a piece or two, but the QH rules don't allow that type so there are people who literally go around the shows and do the intricate weaving - it all costs a lot of money! They are absolutely obsessed with turn out.

The tail set is a bit controversial. . . there are not so nice ways to get a tail looking like that, but to be fair, the address that in the rules now and tails can be inspected. Hard to say if that ever really happens, though. That said, I worked for someone who bred top AQHA horses for awhile and, surprisingly, lots of them carried their tails like that naturally. The way they're trained also contributes.
 
Tally Ho nailed it first, but others have contributed, to what is bad about showing - to paraphrase, it's "nurture, not nature" and the more extreme it becomes, the more false it becomes.

I obviously missed some of the video as I didn't see the jumping, but surely the old saying of 'andsome is as 'andsome does' applies, or should apply, to showing classes in some degree.
 
marmalade76 said:
I think they look awful, they all want a foot lobbing off the end.

It looks to me that the tails are so heavy the horses are unable to carry them (I mean lift the tail up, they all look like their tails are clammed down).
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Coming a bit late to this thread, but the reason so many pleasure horse tails looks so dead is that they've been injected with alcohol so the horse can't move them. Not even to swat a fly. Illegal yes, but not uncommon at all. The idea is that a swishy tail makes the horse look annoyed and tense, which is the opposite of what you want a pleasure horse looking like...

The horses themselves are all a bit tired in general too - my old barn manager told me that heavy sand footing is preferred (4-6" at least) and the horses all cantered around daily til they are tired in the heavy footing to wear them out. Tired = non-spooky = good. She herself would get on a 2 year old, pick up her mobile phone, and chat away as she loped around and around for ages...
 
blitznbobs said:
Is it cos american riding is all about submission and English riding is all about partnership and power??
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Apricot said:
No, it is because american riding is all about fads and fashion.
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What a lovely bunch of generalizations. It must be nice to be so superior.

Quarter Horses in particular have a naturally low head carriage because they've been bred to work cows. Is it exaggerated in some circles? Absolutely, just as rolkur is used by some but not all European dressage riders. Personally, I don't care for either method but it's by no means the norm among your average horse owners.

No, American riding is not all about submission nor is it all about fads and fashion. For the great majority of us, it's about having a fun, fulfilling partnership with our horse. Period. But I'm sure it's much more satisfying to think of us as a bunch of ignorant savages
 
TarrSteps said:
Ah, the wonders of context on the internet. There seems to be some confusion . . . the videos referenced are of AQHA classes (APHA and AAHA are similar), which are a very specific type of showing and have little of nothing to do with even similarly named classes in other areas and/or the "Olympic" disciplines. The majority of people who show horses in the US DON'T ride like this and to assume they do would be rather like looking at vids/discussing Ridden Ponies and extrapolating that that style of riding is the standard in the UK or assuming that double bridles are what everyone aspires to ride in.

America is a big place and there are clearly lots of people riding well. Heck, at the last WEGs there were CANADIANS who beat some of you at your "national" Olympic equestrian discipline. ;) p) And if you want to see some impressive riding it's worth a trip to the winter shows in Florida - there's a good reason some of your top SJers go there.

.
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Totallyagree with the quote.
And on a lighter note I often have fake tails come into my store (consignment) and my major problem is keeping my two Jack Russels from
shredding them! anything hairy needs to be killed now! :D
 
I once asked someone who showed in Western Pleasure why they had the horses going so low in front and so slowly and was told it was because the cowboys when working fence lines wanted a horse that was comfortable - I pointed out that this might be true but a horse going at that pace would take all day to get a few miles and it would be quicker for the cowboy to walk on his own feet.
It is a fact that these horses, started at two years old are finished with medical problems by the time they reach double figures.

I cannot understand the judging of any of their classes.
Halter (in hand) classes are held for any age horse and many of those that get consistently placed have a genetic disease that causes them to be over muscled and exceedingly top heavy and die early because of the disease yet they win.
Pleasure classes both English and Western where the horses look as if they are going to their own funeral. Certainly none have any spark to them!
Hunter/jumper where it is all judged on a horse meeting every show jump perfectly and the rider collapsing on the horse's neck, being ahead of the movement and jamming heels so far down it is surprising that they do not leave grooves in the ground. Certainly those 'hunter' riders would be tasting the dirt if they ever followed hounds!

Wouldn't it be great fun to send out some of the English judges and for them to judge the way we do here? I would love to see that.
 
baymareb said:
What a lovely bunch of generalizations. It must be nice to be so superior.

Quarter Horses in particular have a naturally low head carriage because they've been bred to work cows. Is it exaggerated in some circles? Absolutely, just as rolkur is used by some but not all European dressage riders. Personally, I don't care for either method but it's by no means the norm among your average horse owners.

No, American riding is not all about submission nor is it all about fads and fashion. For the great majority of us, it's about having a fun, fulfilling partnership with our horse. Period. But I'm sure it's much more satisfying to think of us as a bunch of ignorant savages
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dont take any notice we are a bunch of hasbeens who live on a cold wet little island ruled by europe even though we won a war that they started ,we like to think we are the best esp when it comes to riding nobody who rides over here has any problems and all our horses are perfect:D
 
That tail setting reminds me of foot binding, poor horses.

TBH I'd rather see a horse working like this than their head winched in and looking awfully uncomfortable.
 
Right I'm moving to America my mare would be a winner! ;)
She loves going with her head low & looks down hill so we'd be amazing haha.

Really don't understand it though as I know that my mare can't work as "forward" with her head down there (or maybe just doesn't want to lol)
 
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