Why was it deleted??????????????????

Fairynuff

Fairynuff

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 March 2004
Messages
4,993
Location
italy
Visit site
I posted on Bankend's thread re the French horses, asking a valid question on health certs and travelling of horses and when I come back to see the thread and just maybe a reply...........POOOOOF-ITS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
shocked.gif
WHY? Do we have another button pusher in our midst and if so, why dont they bug off
mad.gif
. Mairi.
 
Heaven knows why it has gone. I thought it was a very informative thread, particularl Goneto France's contribution. Can only presume some of the "rescuers" didn't like the fact that a lot of us on here felt some of the horses would be better off put down.
frown.gif
 
I missed it completely (I think). Was it referencing an article in HH? Made for interesting reading.

I'm of the opinion that we currently have enough of our own horses that aren't wanted and need a home.
 
<a href="http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&lpver=3&ref=11" target="_blank"><img src="http://content.sweetim.com/sim/cpie/emoticons/00020309.gif" border=0 ></a>. Bloody shame! It obviously made someone uncomfortable. Says it all, doesnt it
wink.gif
.
 
how did you manage to see it? I know, anything intelligent or against 'the flow' is a no no. Why didnt HHo ask US if we agreed to have it deleted? After all, it wasnt violent or defamatory etc. Did you swear? I didnt. Mairi. IP OFF
 
It was a real shame as the info in the GonetoFrance posts was bang on the mark IMO. Maybe GtF can come back here and do it all again if it's not too much bother
grin.gif
 
Oh, OK then...........

[ QUOTE ]
I have questions for member Gonetofrance. The person who runs Equine Rescue France (ERF).

In the past, you have been critical of the first British site created who brings French equines back to the UK, Equine Section (ES) and you've also been critical of a second site that was created with the same intentions, Equine Rescue and Rehoming (ERR) and now, we have a third site you are griping over, once again with the same intentions as the other two sites, Reflex Rescue and Rehoming (RRR).

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting the record straight, I do not run ERF, I am part of the team that do. That was the first fact the article got wrong. Secondly, the quote was lifted from another article I wrote, which I've added below so you can see the quote in context. However, the sentiment was correct inasmuch that we are critical of these sites.

The reasons for being concerned about how these sites operate, taking horses from holding yards in France, are too many to list here. I will however make a start.

The initial major incident that alerted us to the traumas facing these horses being imported was Poppy, a small pony that was 'rescued'. She arrived on the yard with such desperately curled feet that her legs had become twisted and damaged. It was a huge shock as her photograph had not shown her feet. Unfortunately the vet said that he considered the long journey from France to be a contributing factor in the condition she arrived in. We did try and offer support at the time, and were very sad to hear that despite spending months in hospital and enduring operations that the final decision was to have her euthanased. However well-intentioned the act of importing her was, it prolonged her suffering. That was good intentions turned upside down because of the 'save eveything' attitude of these sites. In France, a little pony like Poppy would have gone to a local abattoir. They would not have transported her to Italy due to the state of her feet, and the likelihood of not coping with the journey. Don't forget, these people are businessmen, and a dead horse on arrival is worthless.

France has an enormous network of local abattoirs. There are 23.000 horses slaughtered for meat every year in France.
Because of the culture here in France, horses go to the abattoir where in the UK these same horses would be put down at home, by a vet or a knacker. Horses and ponies are kept on the dealing yards/farms en route to the abattoir. The dealers will collect unwanted/ill animals from the local area from their owners, and then organise them to go to the abattoir, if they cannot be sold to someone else in the interim. Riding schools often unload onto these dealers, and the sound/safe animals will probably find French homes the same way dealers animals in the UK do. The ones that are lame, injured, ill invariably will go to the abattoir. At least here in France the dealers don't tart them up and dope them to sell them to unsuspecting people. The dealers have cottoned onto the fact that there are English people who will pay more than meat money for these poor crocks and waifs, so they use someone to put the equines on the French sites. The same poor souls that you can see in any sale ring in the UK. At least in the UK you can see what you are buying.

The majority of these holding farms that the three sites that import use do not necessarily ship to Italy. We have been in these farms, and seen how they operate.

Buying from the internet does not tell you how sound the horse is or how old the horse is. It is also frightening how the process is sthingy fed. One person said it was wonderful that she didn't need to leave her living room to buy and save a horse.
This was a relevant factor regarding the little pony who died in the transporter's lorry, on the same journey that an old mare broke her tail. The pony, Pep, was advertised as being a 16yo. It was glaringly obvious from the greying on his face that he was at least his mid twenties. Unfortunately, the lack of knowledge of the site admin or soft-hearted purchasers meant that wasn't picked up. He was too old and unfit to cope with the journey and had what must have been a horrible end. In France, he would have gone to a local abattoir. The injured mare has been very ill since her arrival in the UK, and to date her recovery is uncertain. At 26 years of age, it was cruel to put her through that.

Another case was a trotter imported to Ireland from France via the UK. He endured a 30 hour journey, collapsed several times in transit, and was totally distraught and distressed. The vet who saw him said he was lucky to have survived.

There has been one horse imported recently with strangles. And passed it on to an older companion, and undoubtedly the rest of the horses travelling with him. Another incidence of strangles which the UK can well do without.

These are the basic health issues. The ethical ones equally disturbing.

Within the intital site, people were 'rescuing' horses that on arrival did not fit the description of the animal they had purchased. There were huge discrepancies in sizes, ages and even colour. The transporter was also a dealer. These animals were being illegally imported without the correct paperwork. Every horse that is imported into the UK must have a passport, and very few of these did. The white/pink papers are not passports.

The next concern we have is the capability of some of the 'rescuers'.
a)The young equines bred for meat are usually unhandled. Many of the people buying on these site have no real comprehension of what that means.

b)Often there are not sufficient finances/resources to take on a rescue. No home checks are ever done so who knows where they end up.

c)There are tales of horses escaping from fields and stables, attacking horses already resident in the paddocks where they are put, and yard owners refusing to take in horses that have come from France (understandably) in case of disease, and the horse being left in the transporter's yard.

d)Horses sometimes have to wait in the transporter's yard for weeks until onward transport is arranged.
There has been an incident of an untreated injury sustained in transit. The (alleged) veterinary care was insufficient, and the RSPCA was called to the horse after it was seen collapsed in a field.

e)There are situations where multiple people donate towards a rescue horse for someone else to have and there have been arguments over that on the forums.

One purchaser loaned out her old horses (one of which was already on loan to her) to make room for the new arrivals from France. She did not homecheck the loanee, and the horses were repassported and sold at Melton Mobray sale from where they went to the slaughterhouse. H&H have actually reported this recently. This person now has these French 'rescues' up for sale.

Sadly, this seems all too common. There are certain individuals buying horses to deal them on. As the initial post on this thread shows.
We have evidence of several advertisers selling on horses they bought through ERR, some brought over and advertised within a couple of months.
Now, there is no legal reason to why they cannot deal these horses from abroad, but don't dress it up as 'rescuing', because it is not.



[ QUOTE ]
Would you prefer the equines in question to endure the horrible journey to Italy from France?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of these horses won't go to Italy. That is the huge misconception that fuels these sites.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you prefer the equines in question to go to slaughter?

[/ QUOTE ]


In all honesty, some of them, yes. Certainly it would have been kinder for some of the ones detailed above. If all were going to 'forever' homes, then it would be a different story, but not all the purchasers are as transparent as they appear. It is wonderful that those that are genuine have taken these horses and given them a safe future. And I applaud them. (Although I still don't understand why the French horses are somehow more worthy than the UK ones) But they are nowhere near the whole picture, sadly.

[ QUOTE ]
I see both sides of the argument with regard to bringing over french equines to the UK. I have taken 3 equines myself, all via Equine Section. I have two lovely Fjords. Sadly, the third pony I had to have put to sleep and there was so much heartache to edure there and so much anger for numerous reasons but, the journey to the UK has to be far better than the journey to Italy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless the whole process is correctly policed, and the animals health checked before travel, and transported with a registered legal transporter (which has not been the case with one of these sites), there will always be horror stories. And again, they are not all likely to go to Italy. Or in the case of the more pricey ones, even to slaughter at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, there are many equines in this country to be saved for whatever reason but many people have saved french equines believing they are saving them from a horrific journey - you know, the live transport that many organisations here alone, are trying to stop, because it is barbaric!

[/ QUOTE ]

Now here's the rub. We have done so much research into the movement of horses for slaughter. Horses are still regularly (illegally) exported to France and the continent from the UK for meat. I have to be careful what I put on a public forum, but it is no coincidence that there are a lot of dealers in the South near to the ports. Until the authorities get their act together and police every wagon carrying horses, private or otherwise, it will go on.
The UK equines going through the sale rings need your help. For the costs of importing a French horse, you could 'save' at least two UK ones. And god knows where these poor UK ones end up. Amersham or the like springs to mind, and I'd say a swift end at an abattoir would be way preferable to that.
Worse than death, there is suffering..........

The long distance journeys are horrendous. I wholeheartedly agree that no equine (or any other meat animal) should have to suffer. We support the campaigns by the WHW, and are an approved member site of WSPA, supporting their efforts in the same field.

I hope I have answered your questions.
 
you cant keep a good woman down, can you? well said and well done GTF. i am still waiting for those who are bearing a resemblance to puppets made by Jim henson to answer my ickle questions, let alone respond to yours!! xx
 
Just stumbled on this thread, might never find it again! It does seem, in the UK. that there is a real problem with facing up to doing the "right thing" the number of loan horses etc. going missing astounds me. It is highly unlikly that many loan homes (there are exceptions of course) will take on the often crippling expence of a lame/ dangerous/old or useless horses indefinately, we all have to face our responsibilities eventually.
It does seem irresponsible to fetch more of these unfortunate animals into the country.
Recently I was asked by a friend to look at two Comtois Chevalle(not sure about the spelling) yearlings, they had been "rescued" from France, one was totally non symetrical ie. one side was much bigger than the other...Deformed really, the other was obviously lame, and had a very overshot jaw. They were both for sale, they ended up going back to the rescuer, don't know what happened to them after that. Sad is'nt ti.
 
Very well put gontofrance , and I do realy agree about looking after our own countrys horses first , it also worrys me how many of these "charitys" motive seems to be to keep every thing alive regardles of what is right for the animal ie putting them through opperation after opperation to end up with a deformed useless thing that no one would want , or prolonging the life of something old so it can suffer longer..
but it is great when something can be rescued from cruelty or neglect and become healthy and then happy in a loving home...
 
GTF that was a very informative, intelligent and well meaning post and I applaud you. I applaud you for your honesty and opinions in this matter and agree with what you are saying.
Personally I will never get my head around eating horses for meat ( call me a fluffy bunny hugger if you like lol) but I do understand that horses along with other animals will get slaughtered at the end of the day.
I may not like it, but it is is a personal opinion ( please don't shoot me down) but I know it goes on and will always go on.
The most important criteria in all this though is that non of the animals suffer at any point of their journey to their ultimate end.
I do applaud animal and horse rescues but I too am worried about this trend in the UK to buy rescue horses from France particularly as in some cases very little is known about the horses in question.
You have just pointed out a number or errors and irregularities in the cataloguing and importing of such animals. That was just a few cases but I can bet there are many more. But who suffers by these errors? Mainly the horses, and also in some cases the unsuspecting public who are buying them.
Of course trade in these animals will go up. If dealers see an opening in the market of how not to get just meat prices for horses they will take it. In some cases dealers are just that and think nothing of the animals they are selling and even less of the buyers who could end up with a horse that really should have been pts. I am not saying all dealers are like that but I can bet they do exist.
You see I can talk about this on a personal level.
I know of someone who rescued at least one horse from France very recently. The horse was a nightmare to be honest. No manners at all and that was just one thing. There was very little history on the horse at all and as it was not even from the UK in the first place then tracing such a history would have been very difficult. Yes some if not all probably do get vet checked. But what if something is missed. Like for instance the strangles you mentioned. What if this was something that was far worse and could have far reaching consequences for the equine population in the UK. I am not trying to scare monger, just trying to get people to think of the bigger picture.
Now this horse was rescued and those that sold this horse on probably thought this would be a nice horse for that person and as well as being saved from slaughter most probably had a home for life.
Wrong! This horse was passed on within less than 6 months of being rescued by the new owner. Another horse to the same person which I believe to also be a rescue from the French meat market ( although I don't know for certain on this one) was passed on in as little as around 2/3 months.
I have no idea how good a home these horses went to. Or indeed if they will be forever homes.
My main reason for being angry about this situation was the paltry excuse for why the horses were being sold. The first rescue was because the horse was not suitable for their needs. The horse was a heavy horse breed and as such I would imagine that most 'horsey' people would know the abilities and limits of that horse for various equitations before they even thought about rescuing it. I don't know why the second one was sold, but when seeing a comment like both for sale or will swap both for a suitable horse then it does make you wonder why this person rescued the horses in the first place.
If they were not suitable, then why rescue them? Why flood the UK with yet two more horses. There are thousands in this country needing our help. That is not to say I think it is totally wrong to be rescuing horses from abroad. But I think that more vetting and homework should be done to match horse to owner and owner to horse, because in the above case there was a total mismatch.
Sorry to bring a personal angle to my arguement but I felt I had to, to justify why I think what I do about the situation.
If I was to rescue a horse for instance I would want to make sure that the horse met my needs and that I could provide for its needs for the rest of its life. I am no dealer or middleman and so any horse with me is for life.
I can understand that not everyone can employ this ethos when it comes to horses but I think in the cases of rescuing a horse, particularly from another country then you should remain true and faithful to that animal and not burden your problems on someone else and add fuel to an already flooded horse market in the UK!
Sorry rant over GTF, I have a gripe, can't you tell lol
Caz
 
GTF I am amazed that this has been deleted. What you wrote was totally balanced and correct. What is going on.

BTW, I recall a few years ago that someone rented a field adjacent to ours and they 'rescued' a miniature shetland colt from a 'circus'. They had no idea how to look after it and it was a little s**t. They left it and the other horse without water (mid summer) and I went over the fence to give them water and the colt tried to mount me. It was in a tiny penned area with hardly any room to move and never went anywhere.
I don't know what happened to it but I think the 'circus' might have been a better life than its 'rescued' one.

Continue your good posts!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks GtF - great starting point.

Right Mairi - what was your question? Why don't we just pick up where we ended last time
wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
My question was/is. I know for a fact that any equine being exported out of Italy requires a certificate issued by the Local Health Authority vet to say that it is fit and healthy and in a suitable condition to travel. The horse is visited by the vet and if all okay the cert is issued, the export must occur within 10 days of the issue date and expires X days after (forgotten how many). So, how was the export of 'POPPY' the pony possible? Was the export done legally or was she just bunged on board in the hope that all went well? The person who took on Poppy said that the transporter decided she could travel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Since when were transporters given the power to issue health certs (which I am sure exist also in France) ? The more I read about 'Poppy' ect on the orig thread the more the whole thing began to stink. Imo, the whole thing is very dodgy and maybe the authorities (DEFRA, Watchdog)should have a close look into this trade. Ive probably forgotten some points but this was the jist of my post on the orig thread. Mairi.
smile.gif
 
Thanks everyone.

Mairi, because of the tripartite agreement to allow free travel between Ireland, the UK and France, principally to facilitate the movement of racehorses, ther are no vet checks required, just passports. Even that is laughable, however, as a transporter can just say he has stallions on board, and the customs won't check in case the horses are upset.
Many of the 'rescuers' were led to believe that the 'signalement' for the microchip, ie, the markings picture and description, was a passport and a vet check rolled into one purely becaue they held the stamp and signature of a vet.
These loopholes exist because the authorities don't care. Lets hope that no poor horse with something like African horse sickness ends up on the UK shores. That's not hugely unlikey either, because there has been an outbreak in Southern Spain, and there are Spanish horses coming through on these lorries as well.........
confused.gif


Poppy was deemed fit to travel by the rescue site, the transporter and the seller. Why would you buy any animal from the internet without at least looking at the whole animal?
Poor little soul.

Caz, that is such a sad story for these horses, and I am mid brain fry on one of the rescue forums trying to get my point across, but they cannot grasp where I am coming from.
Some nice insults being slung my way too. 'Speshly as I don't buy into animal aid and have let them know.
grin.gif


Can we try and keep this thread out there, the more people that see it the better, as it is after all your horses in the UK that are at risk from any diseases brought in from these dealing yards.
 
[ QUOTE ]
this is a good thread
cool.gif
smile.gif
should we all lobby our MPs about the disease risks?

[/ QUOTE ]
How about IEA (infectious equine aenemia), piroplasmosis (dont know if you have it in UK), leishmanosis, strangles and to top it all (seeing as someone on another 'site' was thinking about covering her French rescue mare) a good dose of CEM! There are cases of CEM here in Italy at the moment although it seems that no one is talking about it so therefore, it doesnt exist!
crazy.gif
I sincerely hope that the law is changed regarding the movement of equines into and out of GB before some asshat introduces a timebomb on 4 hooves
frown.gif
. Mairi.
 
Mairi - how reliable is the vet check / health cert situation in Italy? Ideally this is what should happen in France, but it is just so simple to circumnavigate the system so I wonder if the same is true for the rest of the EU?
 
The vet check and issue of the health cert for export is taken quite serious here. Last year I sold a horse to England and he had to have a health cert issued before he left my yard. The transporter (Italian) would not have loaded him without it
cool.gif
. Im sure that there will be the occasional hiccup but Im convinced that the majority of exports leave with the blessing of the LA vet. The police here in Italy are very active in harrassing livestock transporters and its not worth being caught out with illegal goings on in the back of your truck
grin.gif
. My oh is stopped quite often and his docs and load checked out. Now, importing equines, well, thats another story!<a href="http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&lpver=3&ref=11" target="_blank"><img src="http://content.sweetim.com/sim/cpie/emoticons/00020344.gif" border=0 ></a> Mairi.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top