why we hate showing - soz!

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footballerswife

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gahd - please will someone remind me next year before i plait three ponies into the twilight and then get up at 06.30 thats its NOT SHOWJUMPING ITS SUBJECTIVE!! XX
 
i know - at least in sj if you dont win yu lose! the only good thing about today was when my daughter (10!) wasnt placed in the workers we laughed about it, she did her best and so did the pony - he couldnt believe he was at the wrong end! we came home laughing because we knew it was down to somebody elses opinion but if she loses sj i know its her fault and it all gets a bit stressful!
 
it is very biased, even more so if the judge knows the people in the class, where did you show 2day.
 
footballerswife said:
i know - at least in sj if you dont win yu lose! the only good thing about today was when my daughter (10!) wasnt placed in the workers we laughed about it, she did her best and so did the pony - he couldnt believe he was at the wrong end! we came home laughing because we knew it was down to somebody elses opinion but if she loses sj i know its her fault and it all gets a bit stressful!
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I can only imagine that this must have been a very big class, if a pony which went clear was placed at the bottom of the line.
 
miss_buffay said:
it is very biased, even more so if the judge knows the people in the class, where did you show 2day.
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I've also seen colour bias - all ponies and horses arranged in colour order, bays and browns first, then greys and finally chestnuts - watched the same class same show same judge 2 years running and went back and looked at the photos, yes same colour order!
 
LOL - you see, my horse is THE best looking horse in whatever class we enter - it is very obvious to me that every judge we have encountered is blind as a bat!!! ;) :D
 
Dubsie I'd love to know the judge as a top judge did exactly this at Lincoln two years ago in every class!

I went showing yesterday at the south Suffolk and the judge raved about my horse said it was the straitest moving horse she had seen all day. She won her class but was beaten in the championship by two others that both dished asymmetrically. I was puzzled until I read who the champion and reserve were and saw they were both fellow judges. Oh well that's showing.
 
zoeshiloh said:
I was puzzled until I read who the champion and reserve were and saw they were both fellow judges. Oh well that's showing.
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And it really P's me off! I hate to think of the money and time that people spend getting their horses ready when some 'bigwig' in the equine world can turn up on a horse that isn't straight moving or doesn't have great confirmation and expect to get placed purely based on who the rider is - surely it should be about the horses?! I think that it should be completely overhauled, there are some cracking horses being placed under some not so great horses just because the owner isn't known. It isn't fair and it isn't right. This is why I won't show at a higher level. :mad:

OK rant over!
 
I also watched the HW cobs, and was amazed (or not so as I know what goes on in showing). The cobs pulled in 1st and 2nd belonged to the same chap (well known producer/judge). His 1st placed horse then proceeded to rear with the judge, but he wasn't asked to leave (he did chose to, even though the conformation judge told him he should stay?!?). The 2nd and 3rd placed horses (also professionally produced) didn't seem to give good rides to the judge, but the 4th and 5th (both amateur produced) gave her great rides. The order did not change however (they all moved up a place to compensate for the 1st placed horse leaving) but honestly, the best horses there were the amateur produced ones.

In another class (small hunter) the judge pulled in one stunning horse 1st, and the Underwood's horse 2nd. She had not realised I think from the 'go round' who the horse was, but as soon as they were 'up close' the horses were reversed, despite the Underwoods horse giving a pig of a ride, and not even striking off in canter on the right leg. However, that is showing, and who is going to be the judge to stand up to them? All they would get is a backlash from the 'professional world'. I have just learnt to accept it, keep battling away, and hope that one day I can stand up there on my own merit.
 
You see, the problem with showing is that everyone thinks their horse is the prettiest, most beautiful dobbin in the world - so when it's placed last, or they are told it's not a good example of a hunter, working hunter or riding pony, they decide it must be biased, unfair judging and come on forums to slag the judge off and say the show was cr*p. They don't care if it's a wonderful showjumper, or if you were up at 2am plaiting - it is about the judge's OPINION on the day, and what they think is a good type that goes well.

I'm not saying that's the case here - OP, do post a picture of your WHP and I shall tell you if it's a good example of one or not.

When you go showing you know it is opinion based. Therefore you must be able to accept that the judge is not always going to agree with you - put that judge in your 'little black book' and try again, or look to improve. You must have been placed low for a reason (did the pony do a good show? On the right leg? Did it gallop? Was your round flowing, done at a hunting pace? Were you wearing the correct turnout? Is the pony the correct weight, with the correct muscle? etc etc).

I get really ed up of people moaning about showing. Some people just take great offence when someone with showing knowledge says their horse isn't good enough. Instead of taking offence, why not try to better yourself, or quit showing and go do something where opinions dont matter.
 
teagreen - I completely agree with your post on some points, but you have to admit, that sometimes the pro's are not in the right, even when they get put up above the amateurs? I also took out a yearling yesterday - she was not looking her best, still hanging onto her winter coat etc. I decided to take her for the experience, and she was definately NOT the best horse there, but I was thrilled to bits with her 5th, and in my opinion the best horse won.

I certainly don't always think my horses are the best, I can spot a good horse, and I know when I have been beaten fair and square. Yes, I do cop a nark when I know I have a good horse and it is beaten by something with splints/that dishes just because of who has the reins - and in all honesty can you blame people getting annoyed when certain top producers go around saying (in full hearing of a lot of competitors at the Suffolk show last year) "I could take a three legged donkey into the ring and I'd still win".
 
agree with teagreen - just because you think your horse is the prettiest dosent mean that the judge agrees - after all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

And back to OP - There is a lot more to working hunter than a clear round jumping; was it flowing and at a fast canter? Or was it jumped like a showjumping round - which isnt desirable.
There is also the conformation phase, pony may not be the best built pony in the world, and the showing phase - how good was it? It may not have been the best show compared to others in the class.

I like working hunter, As the judges are usually fair and as there is more than 1 they have to agree and not show as much bias.
 
I agree - that's why I no longer show (well that and I can't be bothered to clean coblet to within an inch of his life).

I know we all think our pony is the best but sometimes I was left completely baffled by decisions - in fact, once I was placed 4th in a class of about 15 despite not being able to make pony canter in my individual show - judge admitted that she shouldn't have placed me so highly but said she just really loved my horse! Also been on the other side of this.

There also tends to be a lack of any constructive criticism at the show's I've been to - hence we no longer show!
 
This season so far I've been last more times than I've been placed for various reasons... but as long as the horse behaves that's the main thing... we watched a supreme championship a few weeks ago where a very normal pony went reserve supreme in place of some very very nice horses and ponies, wonder which judge that rider knew!!!
 
so basically, you are saying that because the judge knew the owner/producer/rider of the pony is the only reason it went reserve supreme?!

It could have been that they liked its way of going better, or saw something that you didnt, had brilliant confo, maybe did an excellent show etc. Flashy ponies dont always win you know.

This is why I hate showing - some people (not aimed at anyone!) cannot accept that there may be a better horse than theirs. And so complain about it - but maybe if they had spent less time complaining and more time practising they would do better. Showing is a discipline as much as dressage, and we all know how much work goes into that! :)
 
tbf I tend not to anymore, though I will do the occasional workers, when you are placed last below something that is very incorrectly turned out for the class, is grossly overweight as in made me go :eek: how is that not crippled, cannot canter on the right lead in either direction or have any idea about bend or just going nicely.......

I figure it must have gotten really high confo marks but having a pic of it can't tell where!
 
only_me said:
but maybe if they had spent less time complaining and more time practising they would do better. Showing is a discipline as much as dressage, and we all know how much work goes into that! :)
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But what about when the pro's horse bucks/rears/strikes off on wrong leg, and the amateur's horse gives a foot perfect performance and is STILL placed down the line? Can they moan about it then?? That is my argument - I know how much time and effort the pro's put in (or their grooms to the most part) and their horses look amazingly well turned out, but sometimes they really don't deserve the places that they get. Yes, a lot of the time they do, but not always.
 
Lol.....took daughters highland out showing at the weekend- he did ok, he's never not been placed but some of the decisions were debatable. I took him in a Condition class to fill time- we came 6th, obviously not fat enough - the first place pony was as round as a barrel with no discernable muscle anywhere but hey-ho.

At least he did well in first ridden- they came second much to daughters delight.:D
 
I do agree that some classes are a waste of time entering. Its clear sometimes by looking at those people entering who is going to get the rosette and whos not.

Its the same in minis. Whilst were talking about this what do people think on the idea of a horse society running a show and the President, joint president, secretary, public relation officer and chairperson entering their own show???

Should this be allowed??
 
i had a right laugh at my first ever show i did on sat - my horse bucked with the ride judge in the first class - oops! (she did come up to me afterwards and said she gave the nicest ride until that point lol!)
then she was soo tired by the show of the workers (after bombing round the jumping clear but rather 'enthusiastically') that she stood in the line yawning away lol! (her first show too and she found it quite exhausting!) and judge did mentioned she looked tired - oops - must work on stamina! funnily enough she can cope with a round of xc no bother but this holding herself together and looking nice is tiring obviously :rolleyes:
but i was not overly sure i like the idea of the whole thing - as you say - i'd much ragther a round of sj/xc etc where there's clear cut win or loose...
and yup - i though she was the nicest there of course ;) lol
 
My first and last attempt at showing involved a Novice Horse class, my beautiful TB/ID behaving impeccably, riding like he had fairy dust in his feet and being placed behind: a horse the rodeo'ed round during his show, a horse that was clearly not quite right on the near fore, and a fat black thing that grunted like Steffi Graph whenever his rider tried to boot him on into canter. The only horse in the ring that was placed lower than us had actually had to be taken out while we were cantering round because she was napping so badly she nearly sat down!
We had a great time though and everyone in the gallery was as perplexed as me by the judge's decision, so we didn't feel too bad, and I ended the day loving my horse even more than I thought possible!
 
only_me said:
so basically, you are saying that because the judge knew the owner/producer/rider of the pony is the only reason it went reserve supreme?!
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No I didn't say that was the case but it could have been you never know (and it does enter your mind as it does seem to be very commonplace at shows)... the line up had some stunning horses in it- not flashy but very very nicely turned out and true to type and we were very surprised when this horse was pulled in reserve, that's all (and no my horse was not in the championship either so it wasn't a case of mine is better than yours!). Seen it at other shows too (and have photographed pretty much 1 full show every weekend for the last 3-4 years)- horses pulled in 1st 2nd 3rd that are not turned out correctly, poor individual shows, misbehave etc. It is so subjective, much prefer showjumping which is so much more clear cut!

As I said, as long as the horse I take behaves I am happy. Also the comments from the judge are far more valuable than getting placed I find- we've had very encouraging and positive comments this year from lovely judges in classes we have come last in... which have encouraged us to keep going.
 
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hi - it was only a little novice show so i thought perfect for our first attempt. she did an outstanding show, the pony has stunning paces and always in an outline, she has been working on the show at home with a trainer who is very experienced in judging whp, she was the only one in the class to use the space in the arena properly and the only one to gallop. the pony jumped clear and very stylishly as always. there are pix of them in my folder. we have only ever jumped the pony but so many people have told us he is perfect for whp we thought we would give it a try. what was really funny was the mother of the rider who came second was so convinced we would win she thought the judge was calling them in in reverse order!
 
The thing is, showing is based on a number of factors and not just one thing. So if a horse bucked with the judge, but is perfect in conformation and is a perfect example of the type, it may score higher. Remember points/percentages are awarded for each element ie: conformation, show, ride, manners etc.
So basically what I'm saying is just because a horse doesnt strike off on the right leg in the individual show or gives a buck doesn't automatically push it further down the line. If it does the above AND is a bad example of type, has no manners whatsoever and has bad conformation, then that is a different story.
Ditto an amateurs horse who has good manners, gives an ok performance (technically correct but nothing special) and looks pretty, but is not a good example, doesn't have particularly good confo etc, it may come further down the line than the owner expects.
I'm not backing either side here. I am an amateur show rider.
In fact at one show with 12 in the class, we came 4th even though we missed the canter transition in our individual show (it obviously came much later than I had intended). I asked the judge why she had placed us so highly and she said my horse had excellent conformation, excellent manners and was a superb example of the type. If she had not missed the transition in the show, she would have been much higher placed...! the lady who came 5th over-heard her and nodded at me and said you can't say fairer than that!
 
eeeep! now im worried!!

My chosen discipline is showjumping -i love it! :D

But.... a beautiful baby im bringing on isnt quite ready to sj, so my grand plan is to show him at a local show to get him used to the atmosphere and other horses etc. Ive done loads of research and got loads of help on here (thanks) as to what to do/wear/turnout etc

However... im soooo nervous about it being a total disaster! I dont know if he's show material - i just know i think he's pretty! :p I dont know what the judges are looking for- and the idea of them being biased towards people they know/ cliques etc makes me feel a little sick. :mad:

Im very competitve, but with sj at least you know when youve done good! :o

I dont want to leave the ring, having won/lost or otherwise and not know why :p

Il see if the judges will blether with me :p


Also... what class??? I called the place and said he was an appaloosa and they said to enter him in sports horse and the coloured class, as they were the only 2 really suitable for him... i hope they wont laugh at a cheeky little appaloosa in a coloured class!:p
 
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Black tack certainly should not matter at Local level WHP if the pony jumps clear and goes well on the flat - brown is more correct but I wouldn't worry too much about that!

I have looked at the pics of the pony and while I would say he lacks a bit of quality for County level as he looks a little 'stuffy' - at local level he should do well if he jumps clear in a nice flowing style. Mum could maybe do with some plaiting practice though :)

We have a 13.2 who is as plain as a pikestaff, has splints you could hang your hat on and a black saddle (only one we could get to fit him) who was virtually unbeatable locally and was well placed at County Level simply because of his fab jumping style. My memory is hazy but at County Level I think 60% of the marks are on the jumping phase.

Don't give up because of one bad judge, there's always another show and another judge!
 
If the show you went to was a small local one then the quality of judging may have been iff y to say the least. Local shows really struggle to get knowledgeable judges, and often end up using people who are not ideal for judging.

Saying that, even at higher levels it depends on what the judges specialism is - I once overheard a well known judge who normally did riding horse type classes, say 'well their all brown aren't they? How do you tell them apart?' when judging a class of ridden exmoors at country level. :eek:

There are some judges who place the well known horses, and I think it can take confidence to put them down the line if they misbehave. If they don;t misbehave they are a safe bet.

Also, lets not forget the judge doesn;t have eyes in the back of his head. I once did very well in a ridden class at country level when my pony was veeerrry bad, but he was bad behind the judge when cantering as a group.

It IS the judges opinion on the day, and if you can live with that then all well and good, showing is for you. If not, maybe take up something else!

It can be very hard to please everyone. A friend of mine judges at a high level and had a complaint made about her as when a competitor asked why they were so far down the line, she said that the pony was too fat (very, very overweight) and a little stuffy and they didn't like it. The pony sounded like a steam train in trot and canter. The competitors mother was at the secretarys office loudly proclaiming that they show at PUK and do well, and had to be informed that the judge is a PUK judge it was her opinion on this day!
 
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