Why won't my mare SJ?

[Harri Green]

I'm getting to the point of being exasperated by my 6 yo 7/8 TB eventing bred mare. Really annoyed.
I've had her since she was just backed 18 months ago (a bit late backed), she's a diamond in every respect, her flat schooling is beautiful, she competes at dressage nicely, she hunts, hacks alone, she loves xc, jumps corners, ditches, water, anything, the only prob is that she's too forward xc but not a problem. U can even put a nervous/novice rider on her, she's an angel. But SJ, omg, she just hates it! So plain coloured poles and rustics are no problems, (up to her comfort height which is 85cm, after that she needs encouragement) but as soon as she sees a course with lots of jumps and even a few fillers she looses it. I took her training yesterday, she became nappy, she was dirty stopping, or jumping so big I was loosing breaks, got jumped off once, nightmare. I was appalled as she's such a sweet horse in every other respect. I just do not get it. Why does a course of SJ send her mental? I've tried ignoring the bad behaviour and keeping calm, I've tried beating the crap out of her, I've tried doing tiny baby courses (fine with that but as soon as they become proper jumps over 2,3" with fillers we have an issue), I've tried practicing but we are like 6 months of practice in now and she's not improving.

Am. I missing something obvious? If she wouldn't jump anything if say 100% she has pain or something wrong, but honestly she jumps rustics or xc for fun. Arghhhhh, so frustrating!!!

 

[ycbm]

It is possible that she has a physical problem which makes it difficult for her to jump from a slower pace, and I'd be starting by looking at her hocks. She can jump from speed, and wanting to go too fast xc is a possible sign of issues too. But when you put her in an arena and set her back on her hocks to showjump, she might be experiencing pain.

I would do some hind flexions, myself, but if you aren't an experienced owner I think you should get a vet to check her for hind limb lameness. In the early stages, and if it's bilateral, it can be difficult to spot.

 

[be positive]

I agree with ycbm it is often more difficult for them to jump out of a shorter stride where they have to make a different type of effort, hocks are the obvious place to look first but one of mine that started to stop sj had front foot pain, he was still fine xc and appeared sound even to the vet when he was checked initially, once the feet were sorted he was fine so I would definitely want to rule out pain first.

If pain is ruled out then I think you need to go back and take a different approach, accept she is finding fillers an issue and start with baby fillers, you may have to make some or buy them yourself I have several that are tiny to get the young horses seeing something under poles from a very early stage, gradually rebuild her confidence trying to avoid over facing her in any way at any stage otherwise you risk putting her back, you need a very understanding and experienced instructor who will not push her out of her comfort zone before she is ready.

The only other thought is that you say 85cm is her comfort height, that is very small for a horse of her type and would suggest a physical issue of some type, I would expect a very green event bred horse to pop 85cm for fun without a second thought, my horse was jumping 85 at his 3rd show with very little preparation he barely makes an effort over anything below that height and popped 1m20 at home easily before his accident which has restricted what he is now allowed to do.

 

[ester]

It sounds atm that any practice that you do is only perpetuating the problem by giving he a bad experience.

If everything is ok physically I think I would find a pro I trusted and send her to them for a bit and see what they think/whether they can get an improvement over that time.

 

[Shay]

Ditto the others about pain. She can clearly jump from a flat run and when the adrenaline is high. But not from a more controlled pace. Hunting and XC (until the fences get technical) requires a flatter scopier jump. SJ requires a more balanced canter and a more distinct bascule. You don't giver her height; but from breeding I assume she is about 16hh? 85cm is - or should be - nothing. (Obviously if she is in fact 13.2hh then that is completing wrong!) So it won't cause her difficulties to jump and won't hurt as much.

Even when pain is dealt with you are going to have some serious re-building to do with her. She's obviously had several bad experiences; not only because it hurt but also possibly because of your reaction to it - you say you tried "beating the crap out of her" which may not have helped.

Do you know why she was late backed? Might there have been a conformation problem or an old injury?

 

[sheep]

Is this the same horse who drags her hind toes? Could that be a sign of a hock issue?

 

[ycbm]

My 6 yr old mare has started toe-catching, or toe-dragging her hind feet. Both feet, and she's catching whichever is inside more. She's sound to trot up, and not toe catching then, it's just when she's lunging on the Pessoa or when I'm flat working her (can't hear/feel anything when hacking). I tried lunging over trotting poles today and she can pick up well over them, then drifts back into toe catching and she's really dragging she toes through the sand.
She's worked fairly hard, she's been doing a bit more jumping and xc lately so I'm wondering if she's just tired and being lazy behind? She's bloody keen xc so I don't think she's in pain. Or have I got a problem here? No visible abnormalities or soreness in legs or back.
Is she being lazy and just weak behind? Or do I need a vet/Physio? It's only been happening the past week.
Tia

Well spotted Sheep.

Is this the same horse who drags her hind toes? Could that be a sign of a hock issue?

I think we needed this information before Tia. I think you've been beating a horse that has hock issues, or possibly sacroiliac problems, or maybe even front feet issues too. Please get a vet involved.

PS over keenness to jump is often a sign of pain, especially in a horse which didn't used to do it or is getting worse.

 

[paddi22]

my ish got like this once jumps went over 90's. I couldn't figure out what it was as he was a machine out xc and even in the showjump ring seemed to love jumping. Turned out it was hock and ks issues. He was having trouble collecting and going back on his hocks over larger jumps.

 

[SusieT]

If you have at some point beat the crap out of her she is likely very stressed by past bad experiences. It is a strategy that will never work. There is firm and there is vastly overdoing it. Horses don't forget and the fact she goes into meltdown suggests she is anticipating bad things - which at this point is something you need to take responsibility for fixing.
I would be taking the pressure off completely and going out to 50/60 cm until she is so confident she is constantly maintaining the fences confidently and you can can steer/ set up without her rushing. Then you build up very gradually - and don't attempt to event think about 'competing' rather than schooling until she is confiden.t
IT may wel lbe that you;ve had her since a baby and your style of riding doesn't suit her. A sympathetic pro who isn't going to make things worse by upping the ante may well be a good idea.
She may also have pain issues.

 

[FfionWinnie]

You need a decent SJ coach to look at this. It could be pain, or it could be the way you are tackling it. Beating the crap out of her is a waste of time and counter productive. She needs proper schooling over fillers with an experienced and intelligent coach who can get to the root of this. If no improvement in a lesson with such a person, suggest as others have said, she needs looked at by a vet.

 

[ycbm]

I'm really struggling to understand why people are recommending a show jumping trainer and not a vet for a horse that is refusing to jump in a confined area, rushes in an open area, and has recently begun to drag both her hind feet so she is rubbing her toes.

Imo, this horse needs a vet before anyone tries to do any more training with her.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Imo, this horse needs a vet before anyone tries to do any more training with her.

Maybe they missed the bit about dragging her hind feet as it wasn't mentioned in the OP - that's the problem with drip feeding and people responding to the first post. Why has time to read every other reply before posting?

 

[twiggy2]

one at work was fantastic forward safe and keen cross country and started putting in dirty stops show jumping, when they finally got to the bottom of it he had stifle issues and the very dirty stops were down to pain as he sat back on his hocks to take off over the jump. Cross country gets the endorphins pumping which can block out pain and the horses have more forward motion so can jump without sitting so far back on the hocks.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I'm really struggling to understand why people are recommending a show jumping trainer and not a vet for a horse that is refusing to jump in a confined area, rushes in an open area, and has recently begun to drag both her hind feet so she is rubbing her toes.

Imo, this horse needs a vet before anyone tries to do any more training with her.

I've seen how much a good SJ coach can solve a rider issue. I said if there wasn't an improvement in one lesson get the vet anyway so I'm not advocating jumping it for another year before getting the vet.

You need all the information to give to the vet and when I read the first post I felt there were plenty of red flags to suggest it could be a rider problem rather than the horse having a physical issue.

I know for sure my coach would be able to identify in one lesson if I was doing something catastrophic to cause the behaviour or if there was potentially something physical causing the horse to behave like this and I could then take his opinion to my vet and explain his thoughts along with mine.

Furthermore since the op thought beating the crap out the horse was a reasonable course of action, they may still not consider or believe it's a health issue anyway and I still think a good SJ coach could go a long way to helping this horse get what it needs.

 

[claracanter]

Could it be hock issues or SI? I would get a vet out as my first port of call

 

[ester]

Maybe they missed the bit about dragging her hind feet as it wasn't mentioned in the OP - that's the problem with drip feeding and people responding to the first post. Why has time to read every other reply before posting?

This, that information didn't exist when I posted.

 

[brighteyes]

Speed seems to be the default to anxiety and pressure to do stuff which is uncomfortable or poorly understood from a training point of view. Listen to the mare and get her hind legs checked.

 

[kassieg]

Honestly it sounds as if there are 2 issues that are linked. There sounds like there is some pain there & a full lameness workup is required.

I also think you have been trying to force a horse who is in pain & unconfident & this is going to be a lot harder to solve than the pain. She's going to have pain memory but also shes a mare & she will not forgive you easily for being a bit heavy handed with her!

 

[Harri Green]

Thank you for all the constructive comments. I have had several instructors, no one has suggested this might be a physical issue. But it's a lot easier to work things out looking at it black and white on a computer screen eh. When you are on a youngster it's tricky to work out what's green behaviour, what's naughty, and what's a potential problem.
In light of your comments i am taking her to the vets next week (not even bothering calling them out, I'd rather have her properly assessed). It's very difficult and upsetting admitting there might be a physical issue but I'm not an idiot or a novice and I will address this properly, as hard as it might be.

😕

 

[ycbm]

Great reaction, I hope we are all wrong about a physical problem, and wish you well.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

hope they find something that can be fixed.

keep us updated

 

[Wheels]

good luck at the vets, it's a good starting point at least and can put ones mind at rest

 

[stencilface]

Its certainly hard sometimes to join up the dots OP, I think we've all been there, the benfit of an outsiders opinion sometimes can be the best thing. Good luck at the vets.

 

[charlie76]

Good luck at the vets. We had a horse that competed BE novice , he was fab xc but although he didn't stop sj , he had a terrible teqnique. If he was allowed to run on he was fine but if you tried to collect the canter for related distances or combinations he was awful. He had kissing spine and hind suspensory issues.

 

[kassieg]

Glad your going for a full assessment, definitely the right decision! Fingers crossed they find nothing wrong or they do find something & know what it is &its treatable !

Its awful, I had it with my mare & went through saddle, back, teeth, wolf tooth, lameness work up & finally after nerve blocks & x rays we found out what was wrong.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Fingers crossed that you find something easily fixable.

 

[Harri Green]

Kissing spine!!!!
I've been at the vets all day, she was sound so it made things very difficult to diagnose. I forced the vet to X-ray hocks even though she was negative to flexion on them, they were clean of course. She had 1 slightly kissing spine and 1 looking like it might be on its way. For me that's enough to warrant her being in pain jumping. So we've injected with a hope of seeing improvement. And we'll take treatment from there in a few weeks.

I am so pleased u lot scared the hell out of me because it's prompted me in to quick action. Thank u. I hope this helps others.

 

[be positive]

Not great news but it sounds as if you may have caught things before it really became a problem, hopefully the injections will help along with a careful plan to get her working well through her back so you can get on and enjoy her, I suspect with KS catching it early before the damage is really set in and compounded through work will mean the horse has a far better chance of a full working life.

 

[charterline]

Well done with finding something wrong, at least you can move forwards.

What other tests did the vets do?

 

[Luci07]

Hope she has a speedy recovery. Might be a good idea to take her right back to basics when you start SJ again. I have had horses who have been brilliant at SJ and useless XC. I have had one who DID have the proverbial beaten out of her SJ - took her out XC and she was brilliant - took a year with professional back up to sort her out and stop her thinking she was going to be rapped if she made a mistake but it was always her default to panic if she touched a SJ fence.