Why would you choose to breed from rubbish???

Ss has summed it up so well. I have always said I'd never use a stallion sight unseen, but did last year when a friends mare who we had in to foal had a simply stunning foal by Don Ricoss, and based on what we saw we used him, and the resulting foal is super.

But I am always wary of the promotional material as no one n their right minds will put up pictures that don't show the stallion in a good light, but what has also been a bee in my bonnet is that the stallions are all graded, even though less than perfect, and I appreciate here that no one has the perfect horse but you are getting trouble you wouldn't have expected from a Graded stallion.

I think nothng beats meetng the stallion, I have often walked into a box and instantly thought that yes, this is the one I was looking for, and also no - won't suit the mare at all.
 
I have to say I have & never would use a stallion I had not seen in the flesh. You can not judge their temperment from either video or photos for one thing. The other part is seeing the offspring (unless using a young 1st season stallion) & their dams. I feel it is important to see the mothers of the offspring. We are all aware though that nothing is guaranteed, just look at full siblings!

I am trying to remember back to an article on Paul Schockemöhle, who has 1000's of mares!! How many foals are discarded from those each year? How many of these mares have had a full competition career before becoming broodmares? How many have been used at 3yrs before anyone can tell how sound they are when in work? I asked someone about grading mares & their reply was the cost outways the benefits, unless you are going to have foal after foal. Even then most people buying are not fussed whether the mare was/is graded or not. The same with blood lines, most buyers dont have a clue all they are interested in, is the animal in front of them & can it do the job they require at a price they can afford. I think its only breeders who really care about all of that, some riders will do because they know that a certain stallion can produce offspring for their sport.

Hopefully the majority of people are well aware of NOT breeding a stallion with a mare who has the same faults in conformation. Going back to soundness, that is something difficult to judge when a horse has been retired early due to injury. If a horse has injured itself out in the field, it is deemed ok to breed, except who knows if it would have stayed sound as a ridden/competition horse. So should we say that no horse is bred from unless it is 10yrs+ & proven to be a sound animal? Again can bad management not shorten a horses career? How many people take the time to warm their horses up & down properly, gallop/jump their horses on rock hard ground. Also is it fair to discard a horse because it was started too young & expected to take on work that it physically was not strong enough for? Each horse needs to be taken on its own merit & history (where possible). Also a lot of horses being bred are really not upto the weight of our "average rider". Sorry guys but there are an awful lot of heavier hobby riders out there, men & women. The quality MW/HW are getting harder to find, as everyone goes for the lighter more athletic type. If we must import horses from the rest of Europe, can they at least be of superior quality to what you can find here. I cant believe the amount of rubbish that has come across the water, with conformation defects that stand out from 100 paces. And yet we are always having it rammed down our throats how much better their breeding programmes are, how they dont breed from ungraded mares/stallions. Really!! Have you seen the state of the horses waiting to go for meat? I am glad the UK dont breed in the quantities of our European counterparts. And yes there will always be the frugles but on the whole I think UK breeding has improved a great deal over the years & that is without any government backing what so ever. We have some excellent studs here doing a grand job, we just need to get people to appreciate what we have & stop bringing over the rejects. Also not every hobby breeder is a numpty, some actually do take a lot of care over their choices of stallion. It would seem some assume that the one mare owner is breeding for the sake of it. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows there is no money in it. You are lucky to recoup your stud/vet fees let alone anything else. There will always be exceptions, that is life, but on the whole I think this years crop (appreciate this is not even 1%) as last years have on the whole been stunning. There really have been foals that would easliy hold their own against those bred in Europe.
 
I would never describe any horse as "rubbish" I don't like it as a term to put on any living being - but in terms of breeding, no I would never breed from a horse with bad conformation, bad temperament or unsoundness be it mare or stallion (unless the unsoundness had come after prolonged work, eg competition etc).

None of my mares have competed, but they do have excellent pedigrees and someone once said "breed from the best, ride the rest" - the two who have had foals so far have produced the most wonderful babies and I could not be happier. I also will not allow them to go away from me to be produced by someone who may not treat them kindly, they are far too precious.

As for advertising for loan mares, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that? It does not mean the advertiser will take any mare going, but many breeders take a break and would like their mares to go to good breeding homes while they do. I am one of those who bought "sight unseen" with AJBliss, and we were very lucky, she is a mare with impeccable breeding and proven ability to have a foal. We took a chance, so far it has paid off as she is a wonderful girl in all ways..proof will be in the pudding as to whether she gets in foal, but to us, it was a risk worth taking.
 
Having read all 4 pages I'm afraid I really don't like the tone of some of the posts on here :eek:

However I agree that breeding from an unproven, lame mare with a bad attitude and poor conformation just to "make use of her" whilst she is turned away is damned foolish :o
 
Cliqmo said:
Having read all 4 pages I'm afraid I really don't like the tone of some of the posts on here :eek:

However I agree that breeding from an unproven, lame mare with a bad attitude and poor conformation just to "make use of her" whilst she is turned away is damned foolish :o
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What are you on about??? There is no tone what so ever, please dont drag this into anything other then what it is & that is people putting their views across. If you want to read "some posts" as having a tone that is your problem. All I see is points of views being batted around, nothing else.
 
magic104 said:
What are you on about??? There is no tone what so ever, please dont drag this into anything other then what it is & that is people putting their views across. If you want to read "some posts" as having a tone that is your problem. All I see is points of views being batted around, nothing else.
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Exactly. It's so nice to have a sensible discussion without it descending into a mudslinging contest!
 
stolensilver said:
Then there is temperament. If the mare is unwilling to work and dangerous to ride then she is not the sort of horse that should bring another generation into the world. Temperament can be inherited. If the mother isn't a nice horse then why risk reproducing that? There are enough sound, sane, kind mares in the world who should be mums to allow us to avoid putting the lame, difficult ones in foal.
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This is possibly true in principle, but in practice, a horse's "temperament" can be seriously spoilt by unsympathetic handling and when one decides to say "s*d off" because he/she can't understand what is asked of her and no-one cares to explain properly in a way that he/she can understand (that's called good training!), then he/she gets labelled "temperamental" - when it should really be the trainer/handler who should be labelled "c**p"! You'll find that it is often the mares too - because they are more sensitive and need more sympathetic handling than geldings, who tend to be more thick skinned.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a horse with bad temperament. Some are more sensitive, some are more confident, some are leaders and some are followers. The way they respond to unsympathetic training varies according to those basic traits of their personality. But ALL horses are born with a very simple set of instincts. Understand these, work with them in mind in your training and any young horse, regardless of their personality can be a nice respectful easy to handle horse.

The fact that a mare might have been slapped and pulled about rather than trained properly and learnt that she can then throw her 16.3hh, 600kgs body about and do some damage, for which she will get slapped about some more and so on and so forth, to the point when she is labelled a nutcase does not make her unsuitable for breeding. Only the basic handling and traning of her foal will decide whether that foal will be a nicely behaved horse who works well with people. Just like (as HarperGal very aptly said earlier) an Arco III X Galoubet youngster will not automatically become an international showjumper, especially if it is "produced" by an imbecile with no respect for or understanding of a horse's instincts.
 
magic104 said:
What are you on about??? There is no tone what so ever, please dont drag this into anything other then what it is & that is people putting their views across. If you want to read "some posts" as having a tone that is your problem. All I see is points of views being batted around, nothing else.
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I was referring to the original comments by 9tails and Enfys on page 1 and forecasting the tone of the rest of the contributers :o Having now read the rest of the thread (and the additional comments from both 9tails and Enfys) I would like to wholly retract my original comment and agree with you that this is an interesting and non-bitchy thread. My apologies :)
 
GinnieRedwings - You make very valid points, & it should be considered along with the fact that some horses are grumpy because they are in pain. Unless a horse has been with its owner for years, it can be taken as just part of its nature. If you bought a horse & someone said oh it always pulls its ears back/swishes its tail when saddling, some people may not think to get the saddle, or the horse checked, they just accept that is how it is. But why should a horse put its ears back to be saddled, if you are considerate, there is no reason for it. Just like people some have a better pain threshold then others. Thats why I like my homebreds, you know them so well that you can pick up on any changes.
 
Cliqmo said:
I was referring to the original comments by 9tails and Enfys on page 1 and forecasting the tone of the rest of the contributers :o Having now read the rest of the thread (and the additional comments from both 9tails and Enfys) I would like to wholly retract my original comment and agree with you that this is an interesting and non-bitchy thread. My apologies :)
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Nice of you to apologis It is a very pleasent thread, though not as pleasent as seeing all the new borns, those threads are the best.
 
I find it a really interesting thread and wholeheartedly agree that horses with temperament and glaring conformation/lameness faults shouldn't be bred. Horses whose ancestry can't be traced back to the Spanish Armada are not invariably rubbish. I didn't buy a mare to breed her, mine is now 10 and in full ridden work. As far as I'm aware she's still a maiden and she has the job of carrying me around rather than cooking babies.

ETA I would be very disappointed if I did decide to breed her to find that it as frowned upon because she lacked pedigree.
 
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I agree re the pedigree, I do like to see as much as possible - but only with the sale of a foal in mind...but it is important too to look at the likes of Jumbo who has half of his missing, it certainly did not affect his quality and ability - or his demand as a stallion.
 
Totally with stolen silver.
too much rubbish bred. Breed from the best and the rubbish will be better than the worst of the rubbish.
There are so so many horses out there-so if your horse doesn't have a good temperment, good record for the discipline you're breeding for and excellent conformation, don't breed from it. And if it's injured without scenarios described by stolen silver-why one earth you would want to breed from it I have no idea.
All this argueing that 'but my horse is an exception because I love it' or that some wonderful horses wouldn't be here-well there are plenty of wonderful horses out there.
Yes it is discrimanatory-but that is the way to get sound horses.
I also btw subscribe to this theory for breeding all animals (e.g labradors and hip scores) including people (heridable conditions should be screened for and embryos with them-destroyed).
 
SusieT said:
I also btw subscribe to this theory for breeding all animals (e.g labradors and hip scores) including people (heridable conditions should be screened for and embryos with them-destroyed).
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Um now I could actually start a real argument on this one - my OH is insulin dependent diabetic and my daughter has cerabal palsy, my nephew is autistic and my neice has downs syndrome. Which of those wuld you were rather not born? BTW my now 16 year old daughter is currently applying to study medicine at Cambridge - she is a school year ahead. My nephew is going into law and my niece into childcare. My OH is just fantastic and no one has a bad word to say about him (yes I am VERY lucky to have him :D)
 
and if they had to chose I bet they'd chose to live life without downs, autism etc.
Once people are born (and I count birth as being able to survive outside the womb) I believe everything should be done to facilitate their survival and optimum life so I am glad to hear about your niece and nephew :)
As foetuses, I do not belive known severe disabilities or illnesses should be brought into the world. And yes, that does include autism and downs. I do not know enough about cerebal palsy/IDD to comment on them.
If you had a choice between a normal child and one with a disability, which one would you choose?
 
SusieT said:
and if they had to chose I bet they'd chose to live life without downs, autism etc.
Once people are born (and I count birth as being able to survive outside the womb) I believe everything should be done to facilitate their survival and optimum life so I am glad to hear about your niece and nephew :)
As foetuses, I do not belive known severe disabilities or illnesses should be brought into the world. And yes, that does include autism and downs. I do not know enough about cerebal palsy/IDD to comment on them.
If you had a choice between a normal child and one with a disability, which one would you choose?
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When I was younger I might have agreed with some of the above, but after working with RDA & seeing these youngsters & adults enjoying every bit of being alive I dont think it is for us to play god. I understand you are speaking about a blob for a better term, but where do you draw the line? Are we then going to get so above outselves that we start having designer childern? Oh there are too many males, or we want blue eyed, blond haired offspring. Yes it is extreme, but then just look at how far humanity has pushed the boundaries of acceptablility already.
 
GinnieRedwings well said ! My mare was one of those labelled rubbish but had just be messed about by ignorant people. She is now a total darling, very well mannered slightly careful around strangers but never nasty or bad tempered. And yes she was put in foal but some stallion that was a random colt from the sales by her owners 2 previous to me but so far Henna looks straight and all there and is gentle, well behaved and touch wood healthy and happy. I hope and am sure with continued careful consistent handling she will make me or if something awful happened someone else a wonderful all rounder who is happy and confident and a joy to live with.

I agree this is a great discussion and have really enjoyed this thread.
 
Saying that we will then 'get above ourselves' is not an automatic follow on to me. Saying we can't do this because this may then happen doesn't work for me.
Designer children will happen if they happen, and I suspect they won't or only in very elite circles where money talks.
 
I'd just like to say that I believe life is life from the moment of conception and don't agree in any way, shape or form with "playing God". But I do think we're wandering rather a long way from the original question!
 
Actually I wouldn't change my daughter for anything - the fact that she has a disability has made her what she is. If I could go back and change things? No I wouldn't, she is what she is and thats why she is special, disablilities and all. She is the reason I got into horses (RDA) and they have done wonders for her to the extent she walks un aided and her balance has improved beyond what we could have hoped for. If I ask my sister the same question she wouldn't change anything either.

I have to ask if you have children? if so I believe you would never have asked the question.

Nothing in life is perfect and I pray to God that we never have a world where any disability is a cause for termination - if that happens where do you stop? is cleft palate a reason? or how about 6 fingers? infact what about a child that will only ever be below average inteligence because thats what its parents are? Do we stop anyone who is not perfect from having children?

I am not pro life at any cost - but quality of life is worth having and can be life with disabilities.

I know this thread is about breeding horses and I would never knowingly breed from a mare/stallion with a disorder but if one came to light I wouldn't have the resulting foal destroyed either unless it could never be sound/painfree/able to do a job.

Rant over (for now)
 
SusieT said:
and if they had to chose I bet they'd chose to live life without downs, autism etc.
Once people are born (and I count birth as being able to survive outside the womb) I believe everything should be done to facilitate their survival and optimum life so I am glad to hear about your niece and nephew :)
As foetuses, I do not belive known severe disabilities or illnesses should be brought into the world. And yes, that does include autism and downs. I do not know enough about cerebal palsy/IDD to comment on them.
If you had a choice between a normal child and one with a disability, which one would you choose?
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do you have children? not to kidnap this thread but as you raised it, you admit you don't know much about cerebral palsy etc, you clearly don't know much about Downs and Autism either - before bringing human beings into an argument, which may be very offensive to parents of children with disabilities, you should educate yourself..or perhaps even keep quiet, as there but for the grace of god may go you one day - it is not for an able bodied person to say who can and cannot have a life or indeed enjoy one.. !
 
I appologise to the OP - I should keep my mouth shut but couldn't not reply to the above.

Sorry for encouraging the hijacking the thread which incidently I think has seen some really good arguments and no name calling - very grown up!! One of the most entertaining threads on the forum (sorry but I have to discount the cute foal ones as they win every time!!)
 
-I never raised specific human beings-but I was asked and gave my honest answer.
If you would inflict disability on a human beings if you had the choice, I do not believe that to be anyone's honest answer.
My opinion is my opinion. If you find it offensive-tough.
I find it offensive when people who know their offspring may have a huge chance of having a disability,and in fact, can be tested for it, insist on bringing those offspring to term, either on the hope if will be normal or not caring either way.
I never said they could nto have a life or enjoy it-but it is my belief it is a diminished life.
do please feel free to PM me if you do not understand my views and wish to. I do understand your veiwpoint and that it is personal but I apply the same standards to all animals, regardless.
 
Wow! Well this sure has gone downhill!!! I had something to say, but don't think I cou;d be ar*ed now though. Just on the topic of playing God, if "you" have a mare scanned in foal with twins, would "you" have one pinched?
 
Back on topic, I know people who have bred from very average (or worse) mares and personally, I do not understand it. Why not by a quality, well bred youngster instead? It will work out much cheaper.

I am breeding from my mare on the basis of her excellent bloodlines and outstanding competition record. I could buy a youngster with excellent bloodlines, however it actually is quite difficult to buy a foal from a dam with a decent competiton record, as people are less likely to interrupt a succesful competition career to breed from a mare.

However, being honest, my main motive is still sentiment, so I do understand that, but I still wouldn't do it if my mare wasn't quality.

For the record, I find any comparison with humans thoughtless and insensitive.
 
Oh dear, oh dear. This thought provoking thread has certainly, and to use the same words as Eothain, "Gone down hill". That's a great shame.

Alec.
 
well just to get back to the point-although there are plenty of people breeding from lovely family pets etc. would they hold up in the open market?
I always do a conformation assesment on the stallion to see if they complimemt my mares first, obviously sticking to a type that would 'improve' them-surely this is the point of all breeding?
I also factor in how marketable the resulting foal will be-anything I breed has to pass this test. Even though you may be breeding a 'keeper' you never know what can happen so they have to be correct, sound and marketable.
However, I have a major gripe with the flood of mares 'fashionable' stallions attract-I posted about this in another thread but there are serious numbers of ordinary, lovely and super mares going to particular stallions (this is especially prevelant in Ireland I don't know what the situation is in England.) Not all 300 mares going to these stallions can suit them. therefore the market becomes flooded with ordinary/incorrect stock of these stallions and everyone chasing after that elusive top priced lot in Goresbridge/Cavan that brought them to the stallion in the first place. This HAS to stop.
Even though mine will not be Olympians (but just give me time..!!) they are correct, sound and always easy to deal with. I have never bred a cross/sharp/rude horse. However handling is also half the battle.
I always consider when I'm lining up 'husbands' for my mares would I buy the resulting animal? I have to breed something I'd be happy to buy myself.
Rant over!!
 
actually, Gadetra, I think thats the most sensible post I've read on the topic.

Would I buy the resulting animal myself?

I think this is something people need to have a serious think about. Referring to extreme fuglies, would you buy that conformationally appaulling foal because it's palomino? No? Then it probably wasn't a good idea to breed. Just because SOMEONE will buy it, doesn't mean you HAVE to breed it!

River looks to be a horse I could have loved, but I've chosen to give her up and keep Dorey because I KNOW she's a horse I love! However, the woman who will be keeping River has been interested since she found out Dorey had taken to a thoroughbred.

So yeah.

As for disabled children. My little sister, had she survived, would have been severely crippled. Her death is almost a blessing. But her disabilities and her fate were not for us to chose.
Her death also lead to the conception of my brother, who unfortunately is also disabled, albeit mildly.

Disability and death is a side affect of attempting to breed any creature, humans included. You cannot "breed" for autism or downs syndrome, and I don't think you should be allowed to terminate downs syndromes. Yes, we're very lucky with what we know about the genetics of dieases and disabilities, but the rest of the time what comes out at the end of it is down to pot luck.
 
I dont know what category I fit into going by this discussion. I breed only pedigreed horses. I have a set of criteria when choosing my mares. First is pedigree. I am very specific about my bloodlines and if mares dont have those lines then that is the end of my interest in them. Second is conformation. Mares must have very good conformation and pleasing on the eye, be 100% sound, with a proven track record. Third is temperament. My belief is that foals are highly influenced by their dams so this is very important to me. Fourth is colour genetics. The base colour must be within my range of acceptables. If all this set of criteria is fulfilled by a mare then my interest remains, if she does not hold them all then she is of no interest to me.

Choosing stallions every year for my mares is slightly more complex in that they also have to fulfill the above criteria but they need to go beyond that as they also need to have similar statures which will compliment the mares. I struggle to use a stallion of a lesser quality to a mare but I admit it is something I have done at least once before and the results were exceptional. My theory that damlines are so much more important held up to the test. My dams are very important to me. They are the footings on which everything else is built around. To choose mares wisely is to set solid foundations and their quality are something I would never make compromises on.
 
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