Why would you choose to breed from rubbish???

Eothain said:
Wow! Well this sure has gone downhill!!! I had something to say, but don't think I cou;d be ar*ed now though. Just on the topic of playing God, if "you" have a mare scanned in foal with twins, would "you" have one pinched?
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I do each and every time twins come into the equation. My responsibility is first and foremost towards my mares. Twins could be the death of her so not a chance in hell that I would compromise her life.
 
Harper_Gal said:
actually, Gadetra, I think thats the most sensible post I've read on the topic.

Would I buy the resulting animal myself?

I think this is something people need to have a serious think about. Referring to extreme fuglies, would you buy that conformationally appaulling foal because it's palomino? No? Then it probably wasn't a good idea to breed. Just because SOMEONE will buy it, doesn't mean you HAVE to breed
it
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I'm trying hard to change peoples perception that if it's not a 'normal' colour that it's rubbish.
People think if you're breeding for an 'unusual' colour that it is the only thing taken into consideration.
That is true with some so I know it will take me a while to change the predudice just like the coloureds 15years ago.
I showed Electrum as a yearling at Herts County in a Sportshorse class and the judge actually said to me 'when he walked in the ring I didn't 'like' his colour but when you stood him up infront of me he is a really nice horse'..... she pulled him up from the bottom to 2nd .
I have been breeding mostly TB's for over 20 years and always tried to get a bay lol ......noone ever questions if you try to breed to get a bay and not a chesnut lol
I am so particular about what I breed, whatever colour lol ....but I love when people actually see my unusual coloured horses and make their own opinion because I'm rubbish at taking photo's and also it's not in my character to boastfully promote them. My horses can speak for themselves so to say.
I know you weren't deliberately knocking palomino's but it was the colour that came to your mind first when you made the fugly statement if you see my point x
 
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On the topic of colour so long as the horse is of sound conformation there is nothing wrong with trying to breed for Palomino etc. They have their own classes & their own stud books so I dont see any difference. Out of interest Electrum's stud fee for a GSB mare is 1900 plus the 100 booking fee, does this mean these foals are fetching in excess of 2k?
 
....I bred a liver chesnut mare with a dun stallion - nothing to do with his colour - and expected a chesnut foal...I have ended up with the most beautiful palamino Filly (turns out her sire - Dun to Order (Fergus the Bogeyman) is actually buckskin).

We actually call her the Barbie horse because she doesn't look 'real'. She is a very dark toned palamino with a very very silver mane & tail..... a really beautiful head and perfect (I believe) conformation.

Sort of off topic again...sorry!!
 
magic104 said:
On the topic of colour so long as the horse is of sound conformation there is nothing wrong with trying to breed for Palomino etc. They have their own classes & their own stud books so I dont see any difference. Out of interest Electrum's stud fee for a GSB mare is 1900 plus the 100 booking fee, does this mean these foals are fetching in excess of 2k?
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Electrum's only 3yo so no foals till next year.
I blooming well hope their worth over 2k lol it cost me an arm and leg to buy and get him over from the US ......I hope you were joking?
I'll support the BPS and am sponsoring the ridden sporthorse class at their Nat Champs but I'm not breeding palominos just to show.
Aurumba is registered in the General stud book and I'm hopefully putting him in training next year. His dam is from a good racing damline so there's no reason he hasn't an equal chance :)
All the horses I breed are aimed as eventers, they 're bred to do a job but I like a goodlooking horse whether it be bay or pally :)
 
I am most certainly not having a dig or go or anything. Just curious, there are a fair few TB's standing who have form whether it be on the track or otherwise. whose stud fees are less then half. Please dont take this the wrong way (comes from being a buyer), but what justification at his young age for the high (in comparison to other sportshorses/tb's) stud fee? I dont know how to get this across as in offensive as possible. But as a buyer I will always look for savings, it is my duty to get the best possible price. If though there is a deadline then price may have to take 2nd place. As we have touched on salebility of offspring, I wondered if Electrum's offspring will recover the stud fee.
 
magic104 said:
Out of interest Electrum's stud fee for a GSB mare is 1900 plus the 100 booking fee, does this mean these foals are fetching in excess of 2k?
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I hope you dont mind me highlighting this Magic. I was also speechless when I read the above. Why would anyone breed foals *not* selling for well in excess of 2k? Surely the sums most breeders are getting for weanling foals is very much higher than 2k otherwise what would be the point of anyone breeding unless for self indulgence or for the elite few.
 
jaypeebee said:
I hope you dont mind me highlighting this Magic. I was also speechless when I read the above. Why would anyone breed foals *not* selling for well in excess of 2k? Surely the sums most breeders are getting for weanling foals is very much higher than 2k otherwise what would be the point of anyone breeding unless for self indulgence or for the elite few.
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Why are you speechless? What people advertise & what they get are 2 different things. Also just one example Smart bay gelding born June ’08 to make 16.0hh or 16.1hh. By Its Without Doubt and out of a good hunting mare who’s Sire was Hot Rumour and Grand Sire Hill Farmer.

Good looking yearling with speed and lovely movement. Just the right material for an eventing prospect.
£2,750.

That is a 2yo so there is the keep etc to add on. Then there are the bloodstock sales, plenty of young stock there dont make their stud fee, & not all are badly bred, or have awful conformation.
 
We decided last year to put our mare in foal. She was a 'rescue' horse, bought from a field by the woman for whom my daughter worked because she felt so sorry for her. She was skeletal and so weak she almost died. My daughter fell for her and we bought her. She had a lot of behavioural problems initially but to cut a long story short, she turned into a wonderful mare who evented to novice level, won countless dressage competitions did working hunter and was riding club regional champion in dressage, and horse trials and turned out to have a wonderful loving temprement. She would try her heart out for my daughter. She is a bright chestnut and white skewbald and has a fan club wherever she goes! However she does have less than perfect front leg conformation (though she has never been unsound) and we have no idea of her breeding. We wanted to breed from her for a 'keeper' horse for my daughter but we thought very carefully about what she needed to 'improve' her eg scope, movement, and also what we wanted, a good allrounder who could possibly event up to one star. Lots of people said we should go for a coloured stallion but our feeling was it should be the right stallion rather than just go for colour. The foal is due any day now, so I'm not sure if we will get waht we ordered - but my point is that while some might see her as rubbish - unknown pedigree, less than perfect conformation - we fel fully justified in breeding from her.
 
Regardless of pedigree/breeding/achievements of parents I think the important question to ask is,

If this was a gelding, would I be disappointed that I can't breed from it?

And if the answer is no, DON'T BREED HER!

Just because it has a uterus doesn't mean it should be breeding (yes this can be applied to females of ALL species!!!!!)
 
I sometimes wonder why there are so many horses being born tbh.

We have just bought a 3 year old TB mare for less than £2k. The sire is a multiple winner on the flat and the dam completed successfully in Hunter Trials and dressage comps. She is unbroken but very well handled with good conformation & a super outlook.

The stud fee alone was £1500 which, although not a lot, does eat into the £1800 we paid for her, somewhat!
 
Truly said:
I know you weren't deliberately knocking palomino's but it was the colour that came to your mind first when you made the fugly statement if you see my point x
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I wasn't knocking coloureds!

I was knocking using colour as a disguise for poor conformation!

We've got a lovely little apricot dun colt atm, half arab, quarter highland and quarter shire. On experience of showing him, people get as far as the fact that he is a stunning colour (light mane and tail, golden body, deep red dorsal stripe and primative strips on his legs!) and thats it.

Would love to see what people thought of him if he were bay!

My point was that too many of Fugly's stallions are cremello, garunteed to throw golden foals, but not very nicely put together themselves.
Hence why I mentioned palominos, because thats what a cremello sire would drop (as well as buckskins, of course!)
 
magic104 said:
Why are you speechless? What people advertise & what they get are 2 different things.
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I know what I get for my weanlings. I would stop breeding if all I got for my troubles was 2k for each weanling. Youre right though and I see it all the time with older youngsters who sell for under 3k or even 2k. My point is that if these foals are selling for 8k-15k as 6 month old weanlings then some middle man is losing a lot of money somewhere. It isnt me as the breeder and it isnt you as the buyer thankfully.
 
Magic I can sort of understand what you are saying :)

We have(are still) been in a recession and many people are selling horses and breeders that normally sell foals have a backlog of yearlings, 2yo, 3yo's unsold. Many have sold the older ones off cheaply because they can't afford feed and hay for triple the amount of horses they normally feed.
There are thousands out there of similar breeding and quality...they are not a rarity.
My heart goes out to those breeders and anyone having financial worries.

Of course his high fee for General Stud Book TB mares is because of his colour...his fee to others is £500 which is average for a decent sporthorse stallion.

There are only 3 GSB TB palominos and 1 cremello over here (only my Aurumba was born here, I sent his dam to Germany to be live covered)

When I bought Electrum I didn't expect to pay the same a bay GSB TB I could buy here and I certainly didn't expect to pay Gestut Falkenhorst in Germany £500 stud fee for a rare cremello TB stallion she'd imported from the US at great cost. His stud fee was 3000 euro.

Of course not everyone has the same taste in horses but there are plenty of people that do appreciate a rare horse and like myself realise that comes at a cost.

I'm not rich and live for my horses, I haven't been on holiday for 6 years and my family and I work 365 with no other staff running a large livery yard.
I'm not saying how much I paid for Electrum but just to ship him over here cost about £6000

So I really do think his GSB TB foals will be worth the stud fee.

He covered a clients GSB TB Galileo mare Saturday so there are people that are willing to pay his stud fee for something rare and they really want.

Because I'm talking about colour here, I don't want people to think I bought him 'just' because of that. If he wasn't correct etc I wouldn't have bought him.

The colourful side is a new project for me..breeding TB's isn't as I've been breeding over 23years and I certainly wouldn't waste my own mares, especially my foundation mares lines if the resulting foals were only worth 2k..I turned down 20k for my filly in the left of my sig (and I deliberately haven't bred anything of my own since 2008 because there is a credit crunch and don't usually sell my own foals and that's a high feed bill!)

I hope that clears up 'why' and people understand that the only other alternative is to buy from the US or Germany, at least here you can see Electrum and use your own mare :)
 
If you breed a poor horse then it will be badly treated throughout its life so good breeding is important. The breed societies that will only issue papers to the progeny of mares that have been approved for breeding are setting the example to follow. There is clear evidence of the principles for the evaluation of the horse for temprement and confirmation over the last 300 years laid down by the great equitation centres throughout Europe. Thomas Nissan breeding director of Holstein sees sucess as horses competing at Grand Prix at 17 years old that have come through their breeding program. The WFSH with Upsala University have been trying to collect data on the longevity of competition horses who lead more stressful lives that horses have in the past.
 
Truly thank you very much for the reply, & hopefully understanding I was not in anyway suggesting he was not worth the stud fee. You did not have to justify or respond so I really appreciate that you did.
 
mle22 I completely agree with your reasons for breeding from your mare and for many people, they are why they breed.
You are using proven temperament and soundness, a nice "Look at me" quality and why on earth shouldn't you?
The visiting mares we get here are usually the only mare their owner has, and they have strict requirements as to what they want in a stallion. They want above all a good temperament, trainability, soundness, paces that improve their own mare's, and proven competition experience.
Look at the numbers in this country of riders. Probably 20% if that compete above at above Elementary BD or Foxhunter BSJA.
Then you have the happy hackers who often would like to compete on the right horses, probably 20%.
The remaining 60% want a horse that stays sound, is talented enough to go round a Novice BE, and get placings whatever they decide to have a go at. If you have trainability, a tough constitution and a temperament that makes it possible to hunt one day, dressage the next then that's what most riders in the Uk like.
It's all very well for someone to class anything without a proven pedigree "rubbish" and I do agree breeding from something unseen is sheer madness, but my point is having a pedigree as long as your arm doesn't mean a horse is any good, or suitable to breed from !
I would say breeding from a mare you have enjoyed is a good a reason as any, to want to reproduce yet improve is exactly the way to go.
Sorry this reply has turned into a bit of a rant but reasons for breeding are something I feel very strongly about, and often they get it wrong, having seen so many riders either overhorsed or horses unsuitable for the conditions they have to live in with restricted turnout etc when teaching, I firmly believe not everyone needs to breed world beaters..
Yes we need them, but we also need just nice horses too...
 
Here here Henryhorn,
and Like Truly said why is it everytime colour comes up people do mostly assume that you dont care what it looks like comformation or temp, do they think that because you are breeding from coloureds of anykind, you dont know how a horse should look.
I also had a few having a go at my colt beause he had a rare bloodline he was exspensive I have found that I have had to lower his stud fee until he gets some stock on the ground,first foal due this year
 
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Thank you Henryhorn - you have said exactly what I was trying to say! My daughter is an amateur rider who would like a nice quality horse that is capable of doing what she wants it to do, doesn't have to be a world beater - yes we could go out and buy one, but the fact that we are breeding from a mare who we love and appreciate, is the added bonus -
 
angrovestud said:
Here here Henryhorn,
and Like Truly said why is it everytime colour comes up people do mostly assume that you dont care what it looks like comformation or temp, do they think that because you are breeding from coloureds of anykind, you dont know how a horse should look.
I also had a few having a go at my colt beause he had a rare bloodline he was exspensive I have found that I have had to lower his stud fee until he gets some stock on the ground,first foal due this year
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It comes from the fact that there were too many coloured stallions that would never have passed muster if they had been a solid colour. It may have improved now, but in the past it was not the case. It is nice to see something different, & they do stand out in a crowd of bays. I have to say makes fence judging an awful lot easier.
 
Holly831 said:
...I call my mare (Ellie) elsbells......

Anyway, its a matter of opinion as to what people think makes a good brood mare.

We can't all have superstars and there will always be room for the mare with good confo but no real competition record or where would all your everyday riding club types come from?

Breeding with genetic faults is a different matter, sadly one of my brood mares developed mild sweetitch last year but I have still put her back in foal, I have retained her 2 previous fillies (aged 2 and 3) and they show no signs, speaking to my stud vet he confirmed there is no proof it is heradatory and she produces such cracking foals. I would not have bought a mare with sweetitch to breed from but last year was the first time in 6 years she had even shown any signs - other than she hates flys.

As for breeding from a mare you have never seen/met, for me thats a no as the temprement of the mare (to me) is as important as good conformation.

My foundation mare I bought for all the wrong reasons - ie at a horse sale, they had 'weaned' her 4.5 month old filly at the sales and I felt sorry for her. She was a well bred sec D that had only ever been a brood mare and it actually turned out well, I was more than happy with the foals she gave me.

My other 2 are ex competition mares (SJ + Dressage), one of which (Dressage) had a serious tendon injury, she was going to be PTS because her then owner didn't want to pay for the 6 - 12 months rest she needed. I spoke to the vet and he confirmed it wasn't anything to do with the mares conformation and he was 90% sure she would recover with the correct treatment. I really liked the mare and although she has 'no breeding' decided to take the gamble. She had 18 months off and then I had her covered. She is 100% sound and now age 12 ( I have had her nearly 6 years) and I have retained both her fillies, she is due to faol anytime by Millenium, she is the mare with sweetitch.

The other SJ mare I bought as the girl who owned her couldn't handle her. She has good lines and is a real sweetie on the ground. She can be a little hot headed to ride but with a confident rider she is fab. Her foals to date have inherited her beautiful temprement on the ground.

Sorry for the rant... I breed from my girls because they are lovely 'people' and have good conformation not because of their lines. Had their first foals been not what I expected then I would not have bred from them again.

I do not expect to breed a superstar (although one of my - now 2 year old -geldings has gone to a well known eventer :D:D) I just want to breed sound, well mannered, trainable youngsters to go on and do a job.
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Except that there are already more than enough to go round and plenty of others lining up to be scrapped for no other reason than there are no more homes. They are here, now. Why have more foals to push them out of the queue?

Most people who breed seem to talk as though there aren't enough horse and ponies to meet demand. It floors me.
 
I havn't read the replies, but I will throw in my views anyway!!!! My mare is about to have her first foal. The decision was not made lightly, and I actually put her in foal off the reccommendation from my vet. She is a failed racehorse (failed stall tests),ended up with the meat man, who I then rescued her off. She has decent breeding (Nijinski blood lines), but also has a twisted pelvis from an injury when she paniced (sp) in the stalls. In 2008 we completed a CCI*. She has never had a XC penality. At the beginning of the 2009 event season I could tell she just wasn't quite right, she was still jumping, but not with the same enthusiasm. The vet thought he pelvis was causing the issue, so would need a year off from ridden work. The vet then suggested I put her in foal as she has breeding, conformation is OK, fab temperament, and good affilliated record. I chose the stallion wisely, an went to visit several before picking out the one I thought would compliment my mare the best. IMO this is responsible breeding.

On the other hand my friend has a nasty, bad tempered mare of unknown breeding. This mare is no longer ridden as it just throws the rider off. She has demolished several stables, lorries, etc. and can only be handled by very experianced people. So what did my friend do??? You've guessed it, put the mare in foal. Not just once, but every year. There are now several foals/ youngstock out of this mare, and all are just as temperamental. IMO this is irresponsible breeding.
 
A cast aside mare with a wonky pelvis (foaling issues potentially??)...
I can think of better things than breeding to do with her!
 
SusieT said:
A cast aside mare with a wonky pelvis (foaling issues potentially??)...
I can think of better things than breeding to do with her!
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I can't...I think that is an excellent idea for this particular mare :)

Nice pedigree, nice temp, talented mare, probably nice confo I can't see a pic?
Vet suggested it so obviously checked her out and her pelvis can't that bad if she jumped round BE novice and he thinks she'll be ok in a year.

She ticks all the boxes...so I can't see why not :)
 
I think I'd be questioning the vet quite closely on this one. He only 'thinks' the pelvis is the problem?

I'd want to KNOW before I gave the mare a year off or put her in foal. I'd also ask the question about foaling complications with a damaged pelvis - but that's quite obvious, so I suspect that you already have.

On a more general note - I love my mare to pieces and was hoping that she would become a broodmare at some point. BUT she has had squamous cell carcinoma of the 3rd eyelid, kissing spines (both successfully operated on) and recently Azoturia. Great temprament, fantastic ability, super bloodlines, but no way am I considering breeding from her now.

(Might see if she can be a surrogate for embryo transfer for my super yearling filly though.......?)
 
brighteyes said:
Except that there are already more than enough to go round and plenty of others lining up to be scrapped for no other reason than there are no more homes. They are here, now. Why have more foals to push them out of the queue?

Most people who breed seem to talk as though there aren't enough horse and ponies to meet demand. It floors me.
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So what would you suggest then? That we all stop breeding anything other than potential superstars who, when they don't make the grade are often too fizzy, too big, too fine etc for your everyday home? Who makes the decision on what is to be bred? I for one (and sorry if it offends) am not a TB fan - I love my cob gelding Irish hunter and I would love to breed horses like him. Or would you have the country flooded with WB imports?
 
at what point didanyone say non rubbish was only warmbloods???
common misconception in these arguements. The key phrase is excelling in the chosen discipline..your thinking purely dressage..
 
I think the essential ingredients of a broodmare are saneness and soundness. If they are lame due to a major accident then maybe they will be OK to be a broodmare but if they have gone lame under normal circumstances then no, IMO, that is not a mare who should pass on her genes.

Please notice there's nothing in the above about being a superstar or a warmblood or having a pedigree. A nice mare who has done a great job for many years no matter what that job is has the potential to produce another generation of nice horses that will do a great job. Where the issues arrive are people breeding from a mare who went lame young "because the vet says its not due to her conformation". GGGRRRR!!!! What nonsense! I sound like a broken record here but most lameness is due to soft tissue injury and soft tissue strength is inherited completely differently to conformation. We all know it is possible for horses with perfect conformation to go lame with suspensories etc and for horses who are a funny shape to stay sound throughout their careers. IMHO if a mare goes lame young then she should not be bred from no matter what famous names are on her papers or how many shows she won in hand. I'd rather breed from a mare of unknown parentage (like Jumbo's mum!!) who has done a great job all her life and stayed sound doing it than a mare with the fanciest parents imaginable that is lame before their 10th birthday (unless it is due to a big accident).
 
I sound like a broken record here but most lameness is due to soft tissue injury and soft tissue strength is inherited completely differently to conformation. - Not sure that is strickly true because I have known more then one lot of full siblings where one has sustained a breakdown & the other has not. There is not enough research on the topic for everyone to dismiss a mare for that reason. It is your choice, just as it is mine never to breed from a mare with sarcoids. As from a previous thread, there are those that dont believe they are passed on. We wont know unless detailed records are kept on every horse, like for instance the problem of retained testies, sarcoids, tendon injuries, etc.
 
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