Why would you choose to breed from rubbish???

[Clepottage]

We wont know unless detailed records are kept on every horse, like for instance the problem of retained testies, sarcoids, tendon injuries, etc.

Spot on. This type of research is so important to the future of breeding, not only in this country and not only at the 'top' end of the market but worldwide and across all spheres and disiplines too. The major problem arises when one tries to consider the logistics of such a massive operation which brings me back around to my (and most people's) mantra of not breeding from 'rubbish'.

It's simply not possible to know how hereditary many of the medical conditions discussed in this thread are yet, so, the best we can do as responsible breeders is to try to minimise the risks by only breeding sound (exceptional injuries excluded) mares with good conformation, temprament and if at all possible good bloodlines and a proven competition record.

I've been watching this thread for the past few days but not contributing as many have said just what I was thinking in a much more eloquent way than I ever could. Great discussion guys!

 

[charlimouse]

A cast aside mare with a wonky pelvis (foaling issues potentially??)...
I can think of better things than breeding to do with her!

What an unbelievably rude comment to make !!!!!!! For the record my vet plays a very large roll in the BHS campaign for responsible breeding, and he really rates her. He suggested putting her in foal, not me. What I wrote was a brief overview of what went on with my mare, not every detail was included. I have may be new to breeding, but I am not stupid. As far as my vet and I are concerned she ticks all the boxes for temperment, breeding, conformation and good affilliated record. The pelvis injury occured from a incident when a horse jumped between starting stalls into her stall, knocking her to the ground. To come out with just a slight wonky pelvis (not major, but about 0.5cm higher on 1 side) was a miricle, and shows just how tough she is. She has never had a lame day, nor has she ever been ill in any way. I know I made a correct informed decision, and at the end of the day approval to breed for this mare from my vet who is very picky about breeding "rubbish" means far more to me than rude, snide comments on a internet forum.

Bedlam - The vet knows it her pelvis which is causing the problems (scans, x rays etc). After closely looking at the pics from the xrays and scans he can't see any reason why it should prevent her from having a problem free delivery.

 

[lme]

I bred from my much loved quirky chestnut mare because I wanted her foal. Her (equally quirky) chestnut daughter is a much loved member of our family. It would probably have been much cheaper to go out & buy something, but (for me) it wouldn't have been the same.

 

[Irishlife]

I have made a couple of posts earlier but seeing how it has been panning out I have a few more observations.

Soft tissue injuries 1)- good conformation is essential e.g. short cannon bone shorter ligaments = stronger ligaments everyone knows if you put too much strain on a long lever it will break, whereas a short one will not - simple mechanics. Ligaments, tendons etc perform optimally when conformation is correct.

Soft tissue injuries 2)- management of a horse's workload has as much to do with breakdowns as any genetic predisposition, think tightly bandaged tendons, incorrect training, galloping too soon in a fitness programme, jumping on hard ground - the reasons are endless which is why it is difficult to quantify if quality of ligaments, tendons etc are a genetic expression or caused by bad management. It simply is not possible to collect data as management is a key factor also. You cannot look at one without the other.

Therefore, the only measure is good conformation which is proven to be the significant element in soundness on mechanical principles.

Mares on the continent are often put in foal at three so they have a foal on the ground before they begin their competitive careers, the theory being if the mare is a successful performer, the breeder is ahead of the game commercially as they have a potential stallion, broodmare or commercial opportunity in hand. This of course excludes then any evaluation of the mare's ability to stand up to the work she is asked to do.

Genetic expression can come from 5 or 12 generations back I have seen it over and over, a pair of lousy hocks from perfect parents and grandparents, a 3/4 TB mare who is a doppelganger of her battlebus Hanoverian grandfather. This is why when you have a full pedigree to examine you can make some educated guesses. I say guesses because we do not have control over what we get.

I prefer pedigree and a good sound hardy mare but I would not preclude a mare without pedigree if she were the right sort but I would expect I may not get what I think I might get!!!!

Breeding is neither science or art but if you throw luck and a bit of educated guessing into the pot then that is pretty much what breeding is.

I have been breeding for over 30 years and we get what God, the mare, stallion and ancestors decide to give us and we can tweak it a bit and have a duty of care. The breeding of a foal is a wonderful experience and why shouldn't people have a legacy from their mare?

As I said in my previous posts I do not believe people deliberately breed "rubbish", I believe that ignorance and lack of knowledge is the main cause. I think everyone on this thread will have a new perspective and debate is a great thing. There will always be fluky horses, mis-shapen horses - some will excel, some won't. There will always be the warmblood rejects flooding into UK and Ireland carrying the dreams of a million teenagers before them and the continentals know this - it is a huge market for them. There will always be "not quites". There is awful wastage in some areas of breeding which frankly is worse than somebody breeding a foal from a not quite perfect favourite mare.

Phew!!!!

 

[marmalade76]

There are plenty of people who breed from rubbish and should know better.

For example, (this was a few years ago though) I want to a very well known equine college that has an excellent reputation. There was a mare there who was a cast off from a well know stub because she had poor fore leg comformation. She was evented even though they knew she would not stay sound, she broke down and was then bred from. The stallion was on site so there was no coving fee, the foal could be raised for very little cost and any costs were a 'business expence' so did not come out of anyone's personal pocket. They had at least a school horse out of it and when it reached the end of it's days it would have gone to Potter's (in the time that I was at said college, two lorry loads of school horses went to Potter's) and earned a little money back. If they had sold it, they would have done so easily with their reputation.

They bred from this mare because they had nothing to lose, and so it goes on.

 

[gadetra]

There will always be fluky horses, mis-shapen horses - some will excel, some won't. There will always be the warmblood rejects flooding into UK and Ireland carrying the dreams of a million teenagers before them and the continentals know this - it is a huge market for them. There will always be "not quites". There is awful wastage in some areas of breeding which frankly is worse than somebody breeding a foal from a not quite perfect favourite mare.

Phew!!!!

Here here Irishlife!!
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the continental 'not quites' that are all the rage over here in Irealnd and the U.K.
We exported some of our best bloodlines, as I think any Irish person or breeder will do-for the right price everything is for sale IMO.
However with a few exceptions (Guidam, Ludiam etc.) it is NOT the same on the continent and they rightly keep teh best to improve their herd. It is a long term plan and one that has definately proven successful.
However it is very expensive to keep a stallion prospect, compete him etc. so i don't blame Isish breeders entiely for selling ourselves short-literally LOL!!
Sorry rant over ditto everyone else about only breeding from about the confirmationally correct, sane and proven IN THEIR FIELD mares.

 

[magic104]

Most of what I have said has been re-iterated by Irishlife. As for keeping records well we now have to have our horses passported, how difficult is it to record problems/issues in the passport? These are held centrally with NED, so again why cant they be kept updated?

The one thing that has been missed again, what of the responsibility of the stallion owner? If so many rubbish horses are still being bred from rubbish mares, why are the stallion owners accepting the mares in the first instance? If a stallion owner does not think the mare can be improved on by their stallion, why except it? Also while people are willing to buy "rubbish" & pay silly prices (how many times have I seen that), then they will continue to be bred. If you have no outlet for your substandard foal, then it wont make sense to continue to breed.

On another thought though who is anyone to take away the pleasure that a lot of what is thought of as substandard, conformationally, to the owners of these horses/ponies. Travellers breed 100's of foals a year, many are looked down on as not being conformationally correct. Yet many have given years of pleasure to hobby riders, because they are good doers, & temperments that make them much easier to keep then your blood horse.

A lot of issues hores have, temperment wise is man made, there will be those with quirks that have been passed down, but whose to say in the correct hands, they would be less quirky? Some of these well bred animals are too sensitive for the average handler/rider. There is no question that far too many horses/ponies are bred. I would not have thought that there are many, one mare owners who set out to breed a substandard animal. What would be the point, even if it is for themselves. It is not a cheap option, so why would you "choose to breed from rubbish??? ", I think it comes down to what has already been mentioned, a lack of education. This would then come back to the stallion owner, who in my opinion should turn down a mare that they feel would not suit their stallion, unless they know that their boy can improve on the mare, because he has already proved he can.

I am sure other mare owners have tested the theory, by enquirying after a stallion that they know would not suit their mare, only to find the stallion owner more then willing to accept her.

 

[micramadam]

Interesting topic guys. What do you class as a warm blood reject? I live in Holland and have actually seen many Dutch Warm Blood stallions/mares in the flesh so to speak.
After 18 months of looking at stallions that would suit our Wolfgang mare we made the decision last year to put her in foal to Vivaldi. The result is going to a breed show in July. We have already had people raving over him and he is only 4 weeks old. He was not bred to be sold but as a future dressage horse for my daughter. He maybe homebred but we put a hell of a lot of time and effort in chosing the right stallion to complement the mare.
There is a huge amount of competition here to breed the best and you wouldn't believe the research that is done. I think that the Dutch Warmblood 'rejects' you are discussing are not from the reputable breeders and are not a true representation of what is available.
And no we don't keep the best for ourselves. The foal sales start in August and buyers come from all over the world to buy these foals. Some of these foals reach amazing prices which are far out of the reach of the average man in the street.
There is a saying over here which I believe has some truth to it - Fokken is gokken - which means breeding is a gamble. You can make the best choice possible (stallion and mare) but you will never produce the perfect horse.
If horses could breed humans what would they class as rubbish?

 

[Enfys]

The one thing that has been missed again, what of the responsibility of the stallion owner? If so many rubbish horses are still being bred from rubbish mares, why are the stallion owners accepting the mares in the first instance? If a stallion owner does not think the mare can be improved on by their stallion, why except it?

.

Good point, I hadn't seen that mentioned.

I have a stallion, he doesn't stand to the public, but does serve a few local mares. He hasn't set foot in a showring, but he has good bloodlines with names that have a reputation for producing horses with equable, trainable temperaments. He is correct for his breed standard (but not to the eyes of many British people who are not au fait with the breed), he has thrown fabulous foals for me from Arabians, QH's and Paints.

He isn't going to produce the next eventing superstar, but he will produce a medium sized horse that can go on to do anything within its' physical and metal capabilities - given the correct training.

Every year I have people, total strangers, stop outside my fields to look at the foals and the stallion, some make offers for foals (and I have sold a couple like that) others ask to use him, and I have turned down many offers for him, mainly because he is flashy and would make a good rodeo parade or performance horse. A nicely made mare of a decent size I'll accept, I have also told owners if I don't think he'd compliment their mares and I refuse to breed him to a variety of shetlands or pony mares - you'd be amazed at the the people that ask.

It is not my business if they are registered or not, he is, and licensed, and DNA'd, foals can be registered if the owners wish. So I do pick and choose who he breeds, his progeny are his advertisement.

I don't for one minute imagine that those I turn away will just go home and give up the idea of breeding, they'll just go and find another stallion to use, if people want to breed, they will.

Magic104 has a valid point indeed, to a point, much of a horses temperament is man made.

 

[Bearskin]

Soft tissue injuries 1)- good conformation is essential e.g. short cannon bone shorter ligaments = stronger ligaments everyone knows if you put too much strain on a long lever it will break, whereas a short one will not - simple mechanics. Ligaments, tendons etc perform optimally when conformation is correct.

)

There has been a study that shows that having long cannon bones does not predispose horses to more injuries. What is more important in leg comformation and soundness is the length and angle of the pastern and hoof. If the pastern is too long a greater lever action is exerted when the horse is in motion, making strains and sprains more likely. If the hoof and pastern are at different angles, ie upright pastern and foot with low heels and long toes, the likelyhood of navicular syndrome is greatly increased.

 

[Clepottage]

The one thing that has been missed again, what of the responsibility of the stallion owner? If so many rubbish horses are still being bred from rubbish mares, why are the stallion owners accepting the mares in the first instance?

This is an interesting point. A few years ago I had a rather heated discussion with the owner of a fairly well known (at that time young) stallion whilst at it's grading. arguably said stallion does have excellent bloodlines and has proved to be talented enough but I still couldn't understand why the owners broodmare herd (at this time she only had one stallion and used him on all her mares) consisted of a few warmbloods, a couple of cobs an arab, a clydesdale and at least two clydesdale X's. My problem wasn't so much with the breeds of these mares (although it does strike me as a rather odd selection), but rather that when she showed me pictures of these mares they were the fugliest selection of beasts I've ever seen! Her justification was that her stallion would improve them all - no argument from me there as it would've been hard not to - and they should all make nice family horses. My opinion was (and still is) that in 6 years time when the progeny from these mares have been sold on the only thing a lot of people will notice is the name of the sire and not take into account the mare that they've probably never seen anyway, yes she's been improved upon but how is the purchaser to know that? It cannot be a good advertisment for her stallion. Am I mad in thinking as a stallion owner (which I no longer am) the best advertisment for your stallion is to have, at home, the best foals you can possibly breed?

Good point, I hadn't seen that mentioned.

I have a stallion, he doesn't stand to the public, but does serve a few local mares. He hasn't set foot in a showring, but he has good bloodlines with names that have a reputation for producing horses with equable, trainable temperaments. He is correct for his breed standard (but not to the eyes of many British people who are not au fait with the breed), he has thrown fabulous foals for me from Arabians, QH's and Paints.

He isn't going to produce the next eventing superstar, but he will produce a medium sized horse that can go on to do anything within its' physical and metal capabilities - given the correct training.

Every year I have people, total strangers, stop outside my fields to look at the foals and the stallion, some make offers for foals (and I have sold a couple like that) others ask to use him, and I have turned down many offers for him, mainly because he is flashy and would make a good rodeo parade or performance horse. A nicely made mare of a decent size I'll accept, I have also told owners if I don't think he'd compliment their mares and I refuse to breed him to a variety of shetlands or pony mares - you'd be amazed at the the people that ask.

This is very refreshing to read Enyfs

 

[shirleyno2]

A very interesting read!
I have read the above with my breeder hat on and my stallion owner hat on......

"Rubbish" is a dangerous word. I have mares come to stud that do not have any breed papers, not a problem as long as they are good types. They can be anything from shires, welshes, TB's to warmbloods. Every one of my stallions has a super temperament, my motto has always been talent, type and temperament. So to a good competition horse they could/should breed another [!!] but put to an ordinary [?] leisure horse, the mare owner should be breeding one that has the temperament that is also suitable for themselves. I hope that makes sense. Not everyone in GB is looking to breed an Olympic horse!
I also breed from young mares, before they start their ridden careers. Mares that do have pedigrees and have shown potential and are conformationally correct. The ones with a fault are not bred from.

One mans junk is another mans jewels. But let us not forget that Mother Nature must have a sense of humour!

 

[Irishlife]

Well said Shirley!!

To recap on a couple of points I made earlier - to the Dutch warmblood breeder, I was more referring to the huge breeding stations that clearly do have not so great horses coming out of their breeding programmes such is the numbers game they play. The marketing machine is such there is a flood of "average" warmblood horses hitting these shores and the UK that come with dreams and not a lot else!, I know in Belgium and Holland there are many successful small breeders e.g. van Erkepom small village great horses in Utah and Tabasco and the sales are legendary. Certainly not damning all warmbloods.

Stallions - where to begin. I remember when I was breeding in the UK a good few years ago now, stallions would normally be to "approved mares only" or concessions would be made for champion broodmares or Grade "A" jumping mares. Does this still happen? It is easier for someone standing more than one stallion to guide a mare owner towards a more appropriate stallion for their mare but for a single stallion owner from a commercial perspective it is difficult to refuse a mare and standing a stallion unless it is a hobby, is a commercial enterprise and an expensive enterprise too reflected in the stud fees and quite rightly so. In Ireland it is pretty much considered if a mare through her pedigree is in the main stud book then she is a breeding mare regardless of conformation. Inspections will be starting this year for mares and not before time.

So who would breed from a Grade "A" mare with glaring conformation defects?

The answer is obviously going to be yes in the majority of cases as a serious breeder could not afford to let an opportunity to breed from a 1.40 or 1.50 mare pass by. There again an experienced breeder would do all they could to minimise her faults with a stallion.

 

[Truly]

Interesting topic guys. What do you class as a warm blood reject? I live in Holland and have actually seen many Dutch Warm Blood stallions/mares in the flesh so to speak.
After 18 months of looking at stallions that would suit our Wolfgang mare we made the decision last year to put her in foal to Vivaldi. The result is going to a breed show in July. We have already had people raving over him and he is only 4 weeks old. He was not bred to be sold but as a future dressage horse for my daughter. He maybe homebred but we put a hell of a lot of time and effort in chosing the right stallion to complement the mare.
There is a huge amount of competition here to breed the best and you wouldn't believe the research that is done. I think that the Dutch Warmblood 'rejects' you are discussing are not from the reputable breeders and are not a true representation of what is available.
And no we don't keep the best for ourselves. The foal sales start in August and buyers come from all over the world to buy these foals. Some of these foals reach amazing prices which are far out of the reach of the average man in the street.
There is a saying over here which I believe has some truth to it - Fokken is gokken - which means breeding is a gamble. You can make the best choice possible (stallion and mare) but you will never produce the perfect horse.
If horses could breed humans what would they class as rubbish?

I'm sure you breed good horses but please face reality.
How many foals are registered with the KWPN each year? How many make it to the sales?
I have personally seen some very bad examples, physically and mentally , that have been liveried with me or I seen at dealers with 100 KWPN in England all imported.
They all had very impressive pedigrees.
Anything decent was over 20k and the rubbish was selling for about 10 -15k
You do breed good horses in Holland.....noone is denying that. But the % of good ones to bad ones is a little different in reality.

 

[stolensilver]

So who would breed from a Grade "A" mare with glaring conformation defects?

Slightly OT but just wanted to respond to this. To me if a mare has made it to grade A without breaking down mentally or physically then her conformation works and her soft tissues are top class.

Instead of thinking about turning her down because her conformation doesn't fit my ideas of what is right I'd study her hard to learn what it was that made her conformation work so well and add it to my mental library of "not pretty but durable" conformation patterns. I'd also be more likely to breed her than less likely because if her soft tissues have overcome extra strains put on them by poor bony angles then she probably carries soft tissues with strength like iron and may have a better chance than a more conformationally perfect mare of producing strong, tough offspring.

My way of thinking is to take the facts first (stayed sound to grade A) and then work out why. I tend to put function before form but adjust my thinking on form to account for the horse that apparently has poor conformation yet that conformation stands up to hard work. Because of that I'd never turn down a mare for breeding who had done well and stayed sound in any chosen sport (grade A SJ, Advanced eventer, GP dressage) no matter how she was put together.

 

[Clepottage]

I'm sure you breed good horses but please face reality.
How many foals are registered with the KWPN each year? How many make it to the sales?
I have personally seen some very bad examples, physically and mentally , that have been liveried with me or I seen at dealers with 100 KWPN in England all imported.
They all had very impressive pedigrees.
Anything decent was over 20k and the rubbish was selling for about 10 -15k
You do breed good horses in Holland.....noone is denying that. But the % of good ones to bad ones is a little different in reality.

I think its important to remember this issue isn't only with the KWPN and Holland, look at all warmbolld studbooks and european (including the UK) countries to see this happening across the board.

And, I think that brings me full circle and right back to the begining of this thread. LOL

 

[LEC]

I would just like to add that the quality of horse flesh at all levels from unaff to aff has improved significantly in the 27 years I have been involved in horses. I loathe coloured horses yet they are slowly getting better and saw one that was absolutely smashing (athletic and well put together).
At our PC we were probably the best mounted on cheap but good looking horses but now I will go to PC and the kids are often very well mounted. Eventing I am just drooling sometimes at the quality on offer. At RC I see a lot of rubbish but then they only need to jump 2'0 and their riders are normally hanging round their necks! The ones on classy looking horses just looked overhorsed or nervous. There is a lot of **** out there but on the whole there has been a massive shift in better horses in this country.

 

[GinnieRedwings]

Except that there are already more than enough to go round and plenty of others lining up to be scrapped for no other reason than there are no more homes. They are here, now. Why have more foals to push them out of the queue?

Most people who breed seem to talk as though there aren't enough horse and ponies to meet demand. It floors me.

NOooooooo My absolute pet hate of all pet hates!!! The nice sensible well adjusted and well trained horses around are GOLD DUST and go for gold - whether or not they are talented potential world beaters!

There are not enough sane lovely WELL TRAINED horses you would have no qualms sitting your 12 year old daughter on to meet demand - that is an absolute falacy. All the horses that don't sell, don't sell because they are not selleable, not because there are not enough people looking for a horse. They are simply unsuitable for most people to own and enjoy - not necessarily through any fault of their own, but the end result is undenyably the "free to a good home" section of the project horse website, because people don't have the guts to do the right thing and have them put down - buck, rear, spin, bite, kick, won't load, won't shoe, won't jump, etc... Simply try and pass the buck to someone else!

Some people, like myself, take the time and effort to attempt to rehabilitate some of them, but sometimes damage done is too deep and unless they went to someone like me, it just wouldn't work. People don't WANT them, because riding is supposed to be their hobby, to enjoy, not get injured or worse everytime they drop their guard.

So what would you suggest then? That we all stop breeding anything other than potential superstars who, when they don't make the grade are often too fizzy, too big, too fine etc for your everyday home? Who makes the decision on what is to be bred? I for one (and sorry if it offends) am not a TB fan - I love my cob gelding Irish hunter and I would love to breed horses like him. Or would you have the country flooded with WB imports?

Thank you Holly831 for talking sense

 

[magic104]

I would just like to add that the quality of horse flesh at all levels from unaff to aff has improved significantly in the 27 years I have been involved in horses. I loathe coloured horses yet they are slowly getting better and saw one that was absolutely smashing (athletic and well put together).
At our PC we were probably the best mounted on cheap but good looking horses but now I will go to PC and the kids are often very well mounted. Eventing I am just drooling sometimes at the quality on offer. At RC I see a lot of rubbish but then they only need to jump 2'0 and their riders are normally hanging round their necks! The ones on classy looking horses just looked overhorsed or nervous. There is a lot of **** out there but on the whole there has been a massive shift in better horses in this country.

I agree with that, there has been a lot of improvement & long may it continue. I dont believe very many go out of their way to breed from rubbish, there is no point. Just look at the foals being posted on here.