Why?

[Birker2020]

So I went up the yard the other afternoon and goes in Lari's stable to give him a fuss. I'm leaning on the door inside the stable with my hands on the top of the door chatting to someone outside.

He starts licking the top of my hands. Then presses down with his teeth, mouth shut. He used to press down his muzzle on my shoulder when I first had him. I felt it was almost like an act of dominance but I was told to interpret it as a loving gesture. He just pressed his mouth down. No bite. Would stay like that half a minute before moving away.

So after this his teeth started gently raking the top of my hand. I reminded him 'No!' He stuck his tongue out (he uses to do that a lot when I first had him too). Then quick as a flash he nips me, almost like a 'I'll see how far I can push it'.

So I whip round, point my finger at his nose and say a very firm 'No!!'. He shoots back and gets a very anxious eye with lots of wrinkles above it, like worried wrinkles, if he could talk I'd swear he was very apologetic looking and sorry he'd hurt me.

I retain my position again. He comes over to me and blows in my hair with his nose, licks my hand again. Then almost as a dare repeats what he's done, only much harder and much quicker but before I have time to even react this time he shoots back. It's like he knows he's wrong but almost as if he thrives on the response. He's not a biter usually but I wouldn't actually call in biting. It's more like a nip.

Bailey used to grab hay out of a hay tub left outside a stable on the way out to the field. No matter how many times I reprimanded him he'd repeat it, the one day stood stationary he attempted to grab hay about a dozen times. Each time I got more and more forceful with reprimanding him, but again it was almost like he was seeing how far to push me. Almost as if he didn't understand that by being rude would have repercussions.

Any ideas?

And please no nasty comments.

P.s he was waiting for me to do his tea and then turn him out but I don't see that he would associate nipping me with me rushing to do his tea. He's not nipped/bitten me for about 2 years now.

 

[Tiddlypom]

New behaviour like this is likely to be a pain or stress response.

You’ve posted very recently that he is still lame. He has been on off lame for a long while now. IMHO that is your answer.

How is his thrush responding to treatment? Thrush alone can make a horse very sore indeed, but it normally responds very well to a suitable treatment protocol.

 

[meleeka]

I think sometimes bad attention is better than no attention. . I think he was trying to get your attention and tried gently at first, but that didn't work. Some horses really like being physical, whether that's being brushed, scratched or stroked.

 

[Birker2020]

I think sometimes bad attention is better than no attention. . I think he was trying to get your attention and tried gently at first, but that didn't work. Some horses really like being physical, whether that's being brushed, scratched or stroked.

Maybe that's why he was so surprised that I reacted. I suppose it's a bit like a child tugging a sleeve.

He doesn't have a bad bone in his body which is why it was so surprising.

 

[Red-1]

Rigs is a dominant horse. If he'd pressed his muzzle into me, it would have been stopped way before his lips or teeth had also pressed. Therefore the nip wouldn't have happened.

I think horses like clear boundaries. I am allowed to scratch/groom them, but they are not to enter my space uninvited. I think it is confusing for them to be allowed to treat us like another horse then be reprimanded. I feel he kinda asked by doing the pressing, was given a green light, in his mind.

I'd simply not hang over his door within reach. I'd groom him but not be groomed by him.

BTW, with the sudden wet weather, both of mine ended up with a crack in their frogs whereas previously they'd been self maintaining. The crack was quite deep. I got a hoof knife out, sharpened it with the sharpening iron, trimmed a 45 degree angle into the frog to the base of the crack and, only 2 days on, the frogs are healthy again. I really would geta farrier to show you how. I don't usually do frogs but a crack festers really quickly and can make them lame.

 

[Birker2020]

Rigs is a dominant horse. If he'd pressed his muzzle into me, it would have been stopped way before his lips or teeth had also pressed. Therefore the nip wouldn't have happened.

I think horses like clear boundaries. I am allowed to scratch/groom them, but they are not to enter my space uninvited. I think it is confusing for them to be allowed to treat us like another horse then be reprimanded. I feel he kinda asked by doing the pressing, was given a green light, in his mind.

I'd simply not hang over his door within reach. I'd groom him but not be groomed by him.

BTW, with the sudden wet weather, both of mine ended up with a crack in their frogs whereas previously they'd been self maintaining. The crack was quite deep. I got a hoof knife out, sharpened it with the sharpening iron, trimmed a 45 degree angle into the frog to the base of the crack and, only 2 days on, the frogs are healthy again. I really would geta farrier to show you how. I don't usually do frogs but a crack festers really quickly and can make them lame.

Thanks re: frog. Farrier visited and was exerting huge pressure over the sulcus and no response so hoping the stuff I used (hydrogen peroxide) did the trick.

Yeah not sure what the shoulder press is all about.

 

[Tiddlypom]

When the farrier last came about 10 days ago Lari was still on a considerable amount of daily pain relief, and I believe still is? So any testing for pain is going to be muddled by the pain relief. However, you say he is still lame.

If you are genuinely on top of the thrush (it’s sneaky and burrows deep, so it might still be an issue) and he is still sore when on that amount of pain relief , then that really must be addressed.

Seems happier since his trim yesterday. Still padded his foot today, down to 1.5 bute from 2 and 26 paracetamol a day, down from 30.

ETA Another possibility is that the bute is causing ulcery discomfort.

 

[SEL]

My cob gelding likes to play with his mouth. I'm sure if there was another gelding they'd be doing bitey face games but I've had to be very clear I don't play.

So now he's resorted to throwing buckets.

Telling off is interacting/playing. I walk away.

 

[Exasperated]

So I went up the yard the other afternoon and goes in Lari's stable to give him a fuss. I'm leaning on the door inside the stable with my hands on the top of the door chatting to someone outside.

He starts licking the top of my hands. Then presses down with his teeth, mouth shut. He used to press down his muzzle on my shoulder when I first had him. I felt it was almost like an act of dominance but I was told to interpret it as a loving gesture. He just pressed his mouth down. No bite. Would stay like that half a minute before moving away.

So after this his teeth started gently raking the top of my hand. I reminded him 'No!' He stuck his tongue out (he uses to do that a lot when I first had him too). Then quick as a flash he nips me, almost like a 'I'll see how far I can push it'.

So I whip round, point my finger at his nose and say a very firm 'No!!'. He shoots back and gets a very anxious eye with lots of wrinkles above it, like worried wrinkles, if he could talk I'd swear he was very apologetic looking and sorry he'd hurt me.

I retain my position again. He comes over to me and blows in my hair with his nose, licks my hand again. Then almost as a dare repeats what he's done, only much harder and much quicker but before I have time to even react this time he shoots back. It's like he knows he's wrong but almost as if he thrives on the response. He's not a biter usually but I wouldn't actually call in biting. It's more like a nip.

Bailey used to grab hay out of a hay tub left outside a stable on the way out to the field. No matter how many times I reprimanded him he'd repeat it, the one day stood stationary he attempted to grab hay about a dozen times. Each time I got more and more forceful with reprimanding him, but again it was almost like he was seeing how far to push me. Almost as if he didn't understand that by being rude would have repercussions.

Any ideas?

And please no nasty comments.

P.s he was waiting for me to do his tea and then turn him out but I don't see that he would associate nipping me with me rushing to do his tea. He's not nipped/bitten me for about 2 years now.

I’m sure he knows that’s prohibited, Lari’s a mature riding horse and you’ve had him a long time haven’t you? Not a inexperienced youngster?
Unless you were doing something to incite an angry reflex, like probing inside a raw wound, nipping is not ok, even if he took your compliance as permission to go further.
Stallions more typically carry on with ‘mouthiness’, partly a way of communicating (you’d know if it was genuine biting - would need reconstructive surgery), but please don’t allow any horse to treat you like a horse - they are just too powerful!
Another horse would nip him back, probably at least as hard and maybe really bite, and yes, their game could escalate - but you are not a horse, the boundaries and relationship are very different. You can’t retaliate as severely as another horse would do, but ought to stop this the very next time.
Our stallions occasionally have tried to test communication skills like this (I mean, after they are broken in, with established stable manners), and it’s an instant, stinging slap across the muzzle plus very loud ‘no!’.
No messing about, no confusion: simply not happening.

 

[stangs]

and it’s an instant, stinging slap across the muzzle plus very loud ‘no!’.

Well that's just vile. There are better ways to tell a horse that their behaviour is unacceptable without smacking them on the one of the most sensitive parts of their bodies.

Almost as if he didn't understand that by being rude would have repercussions.

"Rudeness" is a human idea, not a horse one, so no he wouldn't have understood he was being "rude". More likely the issue was that you weren't being clear enough as to what you did/didn't want him to do, or that, because he was getting away with it a little every time, it embolded him to keep doing it. Animals are like gamblers; if they think they can get away with something sometimes, they'll double their efforts and keep trying.

Regarding Lari's behaviour, I would assume it's either pain-related (so you need to address the cause of that or the behaviour won't go away, or he will start doing something else destructive instead); attention-seeking (so, to get rid of the behaviour, you do what SEL said and get rid of the reward - i.e., you walk away and don't interact with him); or the result of him being a mouthy horse that doesn't have a fieldmate to play with (in which case you might want to at least get him some stable toys so he can scratch that need for mouthy play without doing it to you).

Either way, don't let him put his mouth on you in the first place. It's not an act of dominance for sure - horse hierarchies don't work like that - but you do need to establish clear boundaries (just not in the way that Exasperated suggests!)

 

[Mrs Jingle]

and it’s an instant, stinging slap across the muzzle plus very loud ‘no!’.
No messing about, no confusion: simply not happening.

Oh my aren't you a tough old horse trainer eh? No messing with you is there?

 

[Birker2020]

Well that's just vile. There are better ways to tell a horse that their behaviour is unacceptable without smacking them on the one of the most sensitive parts of their bodies.


"Rudeness" is a human idea, not a horse one, so no he wouldn't have understood he was being "rude". More likely the issue was that you weren't being clear enough as to what you did/didn't want him to do, or that, because he was getting away with it a little every time, it embolded him to keep doing it. Animals are like gamblers; if they think they can get away with something sometimes, they'll double their efforts and keep trying.

Regarding Lari's behaviour, I would assume it's either pain-related (so you need to address the cause of that or the behaviour won't go away, or he will start doing something else destructive instead); attention-seeking (so, to get rid of the behaviour, you do what SEL said and get rid of the reward - i.e., you walk away and don't interact with him); or the result of him being a mouthy horse that doesn't have a fieldmate to play with (in which case you might want to at least get him some stable toys so he can scratch that need for mouthy play without doing it to you).

Either way, don't let him put his mouth on you in the first place. It's not an act of dominance for sure - horse hierarchies don't work like that - but you do need to establish clear boundaries (just not in the way that Exasperated suggests!)

Yeah definitely not pain related. And I bought him some stable toys but he never played with them although he enjoys his snak-a-ball when he first comes in, in the morning.

Just a suprising reaction really.

 

[Exasperated]

Well that's just vile. There are better ways to tell a horse that their behaviour is unacceptable without smacking them on the one of the most sensitive parts of their bodies.


"Rudeness" is a human idea, not a horse one, so no he wouldn't have understood he was being "rude". More likely the issue was that you weren't being clear enough as to what you did/didn't want him to do, or that, because he was getting away with it a little every time, it embolded him to keep doing it. Animals are like gamblers; if they think they can get away with something sometimes, they'll double their efforts and keep trying.

Regarding Lari's behaviour, I would assume it's either pain-related (so you need to address the cause of that or the behaviour won't go away, or he will start doing something else destructive instead); attention-seeking (so, to get rid of the behaviour, you do what SEL said and get rid of the reward - i.e., you walk away and don't interact with him); or the result of him being a mouthy horse that doesn't have a fieldmate to play with (in which case you might want to at least get him some stable toys so he can scratch that need for mouthy play without doing it to you).

Either way, don't let him put his mouth on you in the first place. It's not an act of dominance for sure - horse hierarchies don't work like that - but you do need to establish clear boundaries (just not in the way that Exasperated suggests!)

let’s hope the horse returns the courtesy then, or that he never bites anyone with any more force than a slap received on his own muzzle, which is salutary, but negligible in the scheme of horse interaction.
Never seen a mare discipline her own beloved foal that’s overstepped the mark?
Using teeth on humans is not ok, no mixed messages, a handler needs to be very clear about that.

 

[bonny]

let’s hope the horse returns the courtesy then, or that he never bites anyone with any more force than a slap received on his own muzzle, which is salutary, but negligible in the scheme of horse interaction.
Never seen a mare discipline her own beloved foal that’s overstepped the mark?
Using teeth on humans is not ok, no mixed messages, a handler needs to be very clear about that.

Birker is not about to start slapping her horse round the face, I think I can speak for her in this case!

 

[Exasperated]

Oh my aren't you a tough old horse trainer eh? No messing with you is there?

When it comes to a mature, trained horse nipping / snapping / biting without provocation, absolutely not.

 

[Mrs Jingle]

Birker is not about to start slapping her horse round the face, I think I can speak for her in this case!

Hopefully you are speaking for the majority of horse owners on here too.

 

[AppyLover1996]

My two lads have gone through a similar phase :

Rabbit my 2 year old likes to explore everything with his mouth, and providing that teeth aren't involved, I leave him to his own devices - a natural horsemanship trainer once told me that horses use their mouths to explore, so it's just their way of seeing what's around them. On the one occasion where teeth were involved, it turns out that he was a bit sore from recently going bum high - it's only ever happened once and ever since he's gone bum high again, I read his body language a lot better and know the risk of getting nipped is higher than usual. I did give a stern no when he nipped me, turned my back on him and ignored him for a few minutes, which seemed to help him make the connection that being nipped is not what I wanted. Ever since he's been good as gold with no problems.

Baggs my 20 year old has a chronic habit of being a nipper due to being hand fed treats with no boundaries established (totally my fault as I spoilt him rotten due to his bad past when I first got him!). However, he does also nip/ attempt to nip when he is due his physio treatment or massage treatment, again which I assume is a pain response. On the other hand - if someone who he isn't familiar with is around him, and he will try and take a chunk out of them - I can only assume that this is due to him having a rough past before I got him.

In Lari's case I would say that it's him telling you that he's sore somewhere - especially as he's usually such a good boy for you x

 

[Bellaboo18]

I’m sure he knows that’s prohibited, Lari’s a mature riding horse and you’ve had him a long time haven’t you? Not a inexperienced youngster?
Unless you were doing something to incite an angry reflex, like probing inside a raw wound, nipping is not ok, even if he took your compliance as permission to go further.
Stallions more typically carry on with ‘mouthiness’, partly a way of communicating (you’d know if it was genuine biting - would need reconstructive surgery), but please don’t allow any horse to treat you like a horse - they are just too powerful!
Another horse would nip him back, probably at least as hard and maybe really bite, and yes, their game could escalate - but you are not a horse, the boundaries and relationship are very different. You can’t retaliate as severely as another horse would do, but ought to stop this the very next time.
Our stallions occasionally have tried to test communication skills like this (I mean, after they are broken in, with established stable manners), and it’s an instant, stinging slap across the muzzle plus very loud ‘no!’.
No messing about, no confusion: simply not happening.

Are you based in the UK? I've noticed two of your replies have been at odds with what would be seen as an appropriate way to treat an animal. The other being, removing a dog's teeth so he can't bite

 

[Highmileagecob]

A horse will learn your response to certain things, but without the understanding of why you respond like that. Same with dogs. If he nips you and you react, he learns that a nip gets that reaction. If he nipped his mum, as a youngster, she would barge him out of her space and ignore him. I wonder if he is 'barging' you out of his space? Would the behaviour stop if you carried out grooming and hoof care outside the stable, and allowed him his space? My old boy is absolutely awful to deal with in the stable, and hates being tied there. He will stand like a lamb for hours at the yard ties.

 

[Exasperated]

Are you based in the UK? I've noticed two of your replies have been at odds with what would be seen as an appropriate way to treat an animal. The other being, removing a dog's teeth so he can't bite

Said dog lived in Chile, teeth removed by qualified veterinary surgeon as the alternative to destroying a young, healthy animal, which dog was also very large, usually delightful, occasionally extremely vicious. Distasteful or not, for that dog, that family, that situation (and possibly for many others, evidently a recognised vet procedure, so who knows?), that solution was 100% success. As stated, my own response to a vicious, large dog would be it’s destruction, however sad - other owners (including the original OP in UK, and the Chilean family mentioned) try to find other solutions, some considerably less effective.
Cultural solutions vary - many horse keepers would be appalled at fencing which routinely delivers 12V (or higher) electric bolt onto their beloved animal’s sensitive nose, or fixing muzzles onto the same. In-breeding status brute dogs and trying to keep them as family pets, or even the poor little pugs that can’t even breathe.....strange what people practise isn’t it?

 

[Maryann]

So I went up the yard the other afternoon and goes in Lari's stable to give him a fuss. I'm leaning on the door inside the stable with my hands on the top of the door chatting to someone outside.

He starts licking the top of my hands. Then presses down with his teeth, mouth shut. He used to press down his muzzle on my shoulder when I first had him. I felt it was almost like an act of dominance but I was told to interpret it as a loving gesture. He just pressed his mouth down. No bite. Would stay like that half a minute before moving away.

So after this his teeth started gently raking the top of my hand. I reminded him 'No!' He stuck his tongue out (he uses to do that a lot when I first had him too). Then quick as a flash he nips me, almost like a 'I'll see how far I can push it'.

So I whip round, point my finger at his nose and say a very firm 'No!!'. He shoots back and gets a very anxious eye with lots of wrinkles above it, like worried wrinkles, if he could talk I'd swear he was very apologetic looking and sorry he'd hurt me.

I retain my position again. He comes over to me and blows in my hair with his nose, licks my hand again. Then almost as a dare repeats what he's done, only much harder and much quicker but before I have time to even react this time he shoots back. It's like he knows he's wrong but almost as if he thrives on the response. He's not a biter usually but I wouldn't actually call in biting. It's more like a nip.

Bailey used to grab hay out of a hay tub left outside a stable on the way out to the field. No matter how many times I reprimanded him he'd repeat it, the one day stood stationary he attempted to grab hay about a dozen times. Each time I got more and more forceful with reprimanding him, but again it was almost like he was seeing how far to push me. Almost as if he didn't understand that by being rude would have repercussions.

Any ideas?

And please no nasty comments.

P.s he was waiting for me to do his tea and then turn him out but I don't see that he would associate nipping me with me rushing to do his tea. He's not nipped/bitten me for about 2 years now.

Is it possible that he was trying to make you hurry up with his tea?

 

[Birker2020]

Is it possible that he was trying to make you hurry up with his tea?

Possibly. Getting a bit frustrated.

He's a bit wild at the moment as
Ththe next day I turned him out. After saying to the neighbours daughter who comes with me "you must always turn them to face you when you let them go" I ignored my own advice.

He took off a kicked out to the side with his back legs. Tbf he was a good eight foot from me but it still felt a little near. Then he came trotting down to us before tanking off in the other direction again!

He normally does that before his fence has been extended but we'd already done it. Think it's the grass. He's at the end of his paddock after tonight so with all the rain coming I'm going to bring it forward about 30m.

 

[P.forpony]

In my observation, there are times when even though a horse knows a behaviour is undesirable it doesn't prevent them from performing it. Whether that's to a human or another horse.
Eg my shetty knows full well that the chestnut tb filly absolutely will kick him when he pushes her boundaries.
He will wind her up by biting, headbutting her belly etc then running away, if he doesn't get a reaction he often escalates until he does.
I've seen him recieve a solid double barrel from both hinds, clearly wince and pause for 30 seconds before going straight back to irritate her all over again.
It makes little sense to me, but clearly the stimulation he gets from the interaction is worth the consequences!

 

[dorsetladette]

Our stallions occasionally have tried to test communication skills like this (I mean, after they are broken in, with established stable manners), and it’s an instant, stinging slap across the muzzle plus very loud ‘no!’.
No messing about, no confusion: simply not happening.

A flick on the nose would probably be a better option if you need to use an action to back up the voice reprimand.

I just see a very head shy horse with this type of management/treatment.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Orbi goes through stages of playfulness by the form of nipping!
Id never smack his nose or face but I will tap his neck or chest or shoulder! If he caught a kid with his size of jaws he would break an arm, so absolutely they need to learn what is acceptable.

 

[Goldenstar]

Be careful pointing your finger at a horse .
I did once to one of ours who was being nippy
He grabbed me by my the finger .
He turned out to have KS had an op never ever angry with me again.
He was not to be trusted with strangers.

 

[TheMule]

I'm shocked (but not surprised, sadly) that anyone would consider a 'stinging slap across the muzzle' to be an acceptable way to treat any animal. Behaviours don’t need correcting with violence or force for any reason.

 

[Exasperated]

Be careful pointing your finger at a horse .
I did once to one of ours who was being nippy
He grabbed me by my the finger .
He turned out to have KS had an op never ever angry with me again.
He was not to be trusted with strangers.

Sound advice.
Remember poor Susannah Bordone (Italian Olympian) whose competition mare bit her nose off while putting on its rug?
Horse bite is c. 500lbs per square inch, pit bull c.225 PSI, great white shark c. 625 PSI, US federal dept. figures, where they have more of all these species.
If others prefer to give their horse a good talking to and ‘thoroughly advise him the error of his ways’ - fine.
I have virtually zero instances of this sort of behaviour from any of ours, occasionally stallions (where it is more understandable, but not excusable). It doesn’t really seem to cross their minds might be acceptable, or tolerated, which is ideal.
But if any should trying nipping as a means of communication /getting attention with their teeth; in the manner described by OP (a mature, trained horse, should be expected to understand manners); they will get a then-and-there, very sharp reminder that is not what mouths are for.
Not so unlike a horse testing other types of boundary, such as electric fence, altho less of a shock since that horse should already know the behaviour is unacceptable (and less painful, unless you’re some sort of muscle-miss).

 

[tristars]

Horses sometimes lick people for the salt on their skin

My oldest one hugs me, with his neck and holds me, he is entire, I've had him 23 years

The youngest is very lively en route to the field often rears and tries to nip, well thinks about it, I wonder if he was not gelded properly sometimes he acts like colt in the morning, and is generally very lively

Lot of horses seem communicate with their lips, well they have no hands

 

[Mrs Jingle]

Not so unlike a horse testing other types of boundary, such as electric fence, altho less of a shock since that horse should already know the behaviour is unacceptable (and less painful, unless you’re some sort of muscle-miss

Never seen a mare discipline her own beloved foal that’s overstepped the mark?

and it’s an instant, stinging slap across the muzzle

And it's a hat trick. All three of the usual ignorant excuses to justify abusing a horse because it happens....if they touch electric fences.........a mare disciplines her foal .........a 'stinging' slap across one of the most sensitive areas of the horse.

Get outta here with your lack of equine education and pure ignorance, encouraging abuse of horses because you don't have the intelligence and empathy to train a horse to be courteous and safe without resorting to violence to achieve a false dominance over a horse.

That is all your method does, it dominates with the use of fear and lack of trust of humans, it does not and never will train a confident and polite horse that works willingly with it's owner or rider because it actually enjoys the interaction and partnership with humans.