Will exit from the EU make Repeal easier

[Alec Swan]

…….. the price of food is already subsidised by europe …….. .

Is it? How? We pay substantially more in to the EU than they hand back by way of SFP (now BPS).

I also see no reason why our household food bills should change. The UK would continue to be self supporting by subsidising our food producers. There would also be no reason why we couldn't support our own dairy industry, it wouldn't be a day too soon.

I do agree though that now that payments are attached to land rather than food production, vast areas have been bought up by those with the wealth to do so, many being only interested in the payments available rather than the production of food. The current system insists that those making the claims for payment must be actively farming, and those who aren't and are simply landowners still win though, as the rentable value of the land is worked out on the value of the subsidy, so it's win-win for those with the capital to buy up these farms.

It's a cockeyed system, that's for certain. Would we, without the constraints of the EU directives, be able to have an improved and workable support system where those who are in need are the beneficiaries? We could and we should.

Alec.

 

[Judgemental]

It wont happen because land for agriculture is a diminishing resource and the price will hold up it may drop off a little but not much. However it will always creep up . If your Hypothesis is true why are land values not dropping at the moment because agriculture has been losing money like a drain for 2yrs running now. The largest distortion to land values and rents in recent years has come from the energy sectors. I think the thing you conveniently forget is that with a rising world population we soon wont be able to feed ourselves let alone worry about the prices. USA actually supports its farmers at a higher level than within europe nowadays and land values of equal quality land is not far off our levels.
If you are in fact correct we had better all say a prayer for James Dyson et al who have also distorted the land market hugely by the tax breaks they get for investing their personal family pension funds in agricultural land at in effect up to a 40% discount( now hold best part of 30,000 acres all farmed by them.) or for example the Mormon church who have bought up large areas around here because religious organisations dont pay tax. These buyers arent letting this land they are farming it. However this has very little to do with support money.

Bye the way if you think the price of food will drop by £700/household your on some funny substance as the price of food is already subsidised by europe it will in truth have to go up . I will let you into a secret at present we would be better off not farming the land and producing crops at all but its not in our make up to do that and at the end of the day its not just us but all our suppliers as well.

The point you missed in my most recent post was as follows:

"If we vote to stay, because of the hiatus and investigation by non-agricultural busybodies, that the referendum campaign will generate, agricultural land will fall to about £5,000.00 per acre".

In the context of what I said, Farming/Agriculture is going to be 'hung out to dry' by the media because it is the easiest target. Farms are fixed features and when one considered all the information available in for example:


http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/GB/2013/

By the time this referendum is over and umpteen television crews, journalists and reports have rocked up on farmer's doorsteps, asking them to explain why they are paid vast sum of money by the EU for doing nothing, trust me the British public will, by 23 June understand what it is all about.

Politicians will be forced to change the whole procedure where Farm Subsidies are concerned whether or not we are in or out of the EU.

 

[ycbm]

Politicians will be forced to change the whole procedure where Farm Subsidies are concerned whether or not we are in or out of the EU.

Not a hope of reform if we stay in. The other countries in Europe have much more land than we do per head of population, and have far more to lose.

 

[Judgemental]

Not a hope of reform if we stay in. The other countries in Europe have much more land than we do per head of population, and have far more to lose.

In or Out by the time this referendum is over the whole question of Agricultural Subsidies paid to already very rich farmers and landowners who enjoy inherited wealth will be the fundamental talking point.

As I say and if you visit:

http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/GB/2013/

and care to enter any name of a farmer or simply the village they live in, you will find out how much money they have received.

An interesting example is

http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org...s-of-the-viscount-folkestone-1963-settlement/

in the context of the following development in Salisbury


http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/n...a_meadow_that_doesn___t_flood___/?ref=mr&lp=9

or

http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/n...rsial_plans_for_100_homes_on_meadows/?ref=mc&

 

[ycbm]

I know all about the subsidy Judgemental. I have friends who claim it, create a loss for the farm, put the farm loss against the profit from a completely unrelated business, and also had the gall to have the agricultural tie removed on their property on the basis that they aren't employed in farming and it didn't sell (surprise!) when on the market for a year at 30% more than it was worth.

I could claim it myself for my one field , but I don't.

The whole system is broken, but the economies of the Med Euro zone countries will crash and burn if it's removed, (bringing down the Euro with them) and French farmers are very politically influential.

 

[popsdosh]

My main argument is with Judgementals assertion that its the EU thats distorting the value of land there is nothing further from the truth and land values will not drop because of us leaving the EU .
At no time in the last 40 years has land values reflected their income earning capacity and the gap is forever getting larger.
The main drivers for land values are that investors look on it as a safe investment because the values do not drop and the main reason for that is scarecity.
Also the tax system drives demand one from an investment point of view and the second and possibly more significant cause which is that land sold for development can be replaced by 100 fold without having to pay tax on the proceeds and because people have an avertion to pay tax they then pay over the odds for that land so as not to pay tax and claim roll over relief .

Farmers and landowners are not becoming fat cats on the back of EU subsidies if you think thats the case just look at the reality. We are lucky on our land here we can produce 4 ton of wheat to the acre each of those tons of wheat are losing us £35 ton at the moment even after SFP so taking out SFP thats very close to £200 /acre if we didnt grow that wheat our cost would be about £25/acre so in hard headed business terms what would you do probably not grow anything so everybody else down the line suffers as well as we dont need labour,machinery etc. We would much rather not have to rely on SFP as in the NZ system however their agriculture was nearly destroyed in the changeover period. We need wheat prices at £180/200 ton to survive without SFP which will increase the price of food. Hence why I say SFP subsidise food prices not farmers in reality.

YCBM I can assure no farmer is having to create a loss at the moment its a reality.I stopped milking cows 30 yrs ago and the ridiculous thing is milk was making more off the farm then than it is now. You would not be able to claim SFP yourself any more the system changed last year.The large businesses in this country cannot claim it either as there is now an upper limit on what can be claimed so change is happening

 

[ycbm]

Popsdosh I know my friend's business better than you do, and I can assure you that as a small sheep farm they have manufactured a loss as often as they can get away with it. They posted another loss last year, were challenged by the inland revenue, and lo and behold they managed to 'find' a profit that had somehow been 'missed'. They claim around 15k per year SFP. I am not suggesting that they are representative of farming in this country, but they are certainly representative of milking subsidies from the EU.

 

[popsdosh]

Popsdosh I know my friend's business better than you do, and I can assure you that as a small sheep farm they have manufactured a loss as often as they can get away with it. They posted another loss last year, were challenged by the inland revenue, and lo and behold they managed to 'find' a profit that had somehow been 'missed'. They claim around 15k per year SFP. I am not suggesting that they are representative of farming in this country, but they are certainly representative of milking subsidies from the EU.

Luckily this actual tax year not an historical one they will have made a loss! If not I would love to know what their doing that others are not. A lot of sheep farmers who actually have to farm for a living are actually on tax credits to survive. If they were caught out trying to defraud the tax system I have no sympathy for them.Somebody who actually had that business as their only income will most likely have had to pay no tax.

I hope we do stay in the EU . However that is not due to the SFP which I still feel is the wrong system of support. I would talking as a farmer rather go back to a deficiency payment system were as the subsidy is there when needed. Also bear in mind if we have a decent crop year 40% of the single farm payment does go back. Please also bear in mind nearly every agricultural producing nation has some form of subsidy system in place with one major exception. The reason for those subsidies are mainly political and its to do with having political control over food production and without subsidies that cannot be achieved. It is that lack of political control over their dairy farmers in NZ that has created the huge drop in milk prices.
Surely what everybody wants is a stable agriculture producing food at an affordable price and I know many cant see it but food as a proportion of take home pay has got nothing but cheaper the whole time we have been in europe. An example of this would be back in the sixties my grandfather kept 25 cows on 30 acres in sussex ,that farm kept two families and my Grandfather had a new car every year !
You cannot do that with 500 cows nowadays whats more that was before the EU bonanza hit our shores.

 

[ycbm]

Food is stupidly cheap in the shops, but costs a fortune in taxes for our EU payments and in tax credits for low paid agricultural workers. I'd rather pay less tax and more for my carrots. The system is totally messed up.

 

[popsdosh]

Food is stupidly cheap in the shops, but costs a fortune in taxes for our EU payments and in tax credits for low paid agricultural workers. I'd rather pay less tax and more for my carrots. The system is totally messed up.

Have to agree there are so many cheaper and easier ways of achieving the same ends a large chunk of whats in the pot goes on the bureaucrats that run it. As farmers we dont want the need for the payments however at the moment it helps keep out heads above water its not right.

 

[fburton]

Food is stupidly cheap in the shops, but costs a fortune in taxes for our EU payments and in tax credits for low paid agricultural workers. I'd rather pay less tax and more for my carrots. The system is totally messed up.

I agree with you about the price of food. Personally I would rather pay more for e.g. milk so that dairy farmers get a decent price, and more for meat from animal reared to good welfare standards. But then I'm in the fortunate position of being able to afford that. What about people who don't have a lot of money to spend on groceries and who benefit from food being relatively cheap? They pay less tax anyway, so wouldn't they would lose out relative to well off people with the changes you favour?

 

[Judgemental]

My main argument is with Judgementals assertion that its the EU thats distorting the value of land there is nothing further from the truth and land values will not drop because of us leaving the EU .

I have never read such twaddle. Of course land values are being distorted by EU subsidies.

Land in 1975 was £500.00 per acre and now it's £10,000.00 per acre

The subject is a monstrous con and scam, solely to benefit the landed titled aristocratic gentry, who do nothing but leech off their tenants.

If landowners were responsible, they would decline these subsidies and donate them to the NHS etc. Instead of bragging about the enormous sums they are paid to keep their many cars, mistresses and horses. I could name one particular Earl who lives in Hampshire who does just that.

Furthermore there are those to receive their Single Farm payments only to buy more land to obtain more single farm payments. I can also name and shame specific individual landowners and farmers.

Lets be quite blunt about this if this was not the case there would not be the comprehensive website

http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/GB/2013/

set up with immense care and detail showing exactly who is paid, how much they are paid and the reasons they are paid.

 

[popsdosh]

Land in 1975 was £500.00 per acre and now it's £10,000.00 per acre

.

Wheat is about the same price today as it was in 1975
LOL it would take about 150yrs to buy an acre of land using SFP money and as I stated for every acre sold for development you can buy 100 at least, which is the most likely to be driving prices?. FGS get real you are really talking out of your a***

Yes indeed you have found the website where everybody can find out the levels paid to individuals that information is only any good if you look at it in context but you wont be up for that argument . However you will be pleased to know that there is now an upper ceiling for payments which stops large land owners claiming more than that amount however large their land holding.

 

[Alec Swan]

Judgemental and popsdosh, calm down boys!

There are parts of both your arguments which are right. When the CAP altered the criteria of its payments from food production to land usage, so the rot set in. Those who 'farm' and in an effort to earn a living, are totally reliant upon SFP. The problem arises when large land owners claim monstrous payments, keep 6 head of cattle to satisfy the conditions of being a claimant, and as JM says, the payments made to such people, or huge insurance companies, or foreign investors who have no interest in food production, and they abound, then the system is very wrong and for all the time that we remain in the EU, so it will stay in place.

The bulk of those who earn a living by getting out of their beds in the morning and working for a living on 'their' land are totally reliant upon SFP just as we the consumers are. I'm not sure what the percentage is, but a sizeable amount of the UK is farmed by tenant farmers, and their rents are set at a commensurate rate to the payments which they receive, so however the funds may be directed to the working producer, so the landlord is reliant upon his income and links it to the SFP that his tenant receives.

I sold some shearling ewes earlier in the year to a man who is a tenant of Cambridgeshire County Council and he has under his control 250 acres and farms land which CCC own. When he asked what sort of rent they wanted, he was told that they expected his SFPs in total and by way of rent.

We need to return to the days when the SFP was linked directly to what a man or his efforts can produce, and we need a system which doesn't support those who don't need support. Whilst we remain in the EU, that simply won't happen because the CAP covers every farming and land owning member of the EU. There needs to also be a separate and lesser environmental payment made to those who maintain our moorlands, forests and the areas which though of no economic value from an agricultural viewpoint, because they nonetheless need to be preserved.

Alec.

 

[Judgemental]

Sir Humphrey on the EU.

The real Europe

https://dotsub.com/view/229ca3b5-e82f-4162-9e9d-1b6ad4af9cb2

 

[popsdosh]

Alec that chap is the lucky one then as the SFP is about half to one third of a commercial FBT rent at the moment.You know as well as I do SFP does not give a substantial return on the investment circa 0.75% the real benefit is in a reasonably secure investment that over many years has increased in value(well in excess of inflation) because its a diminishing commodity. This investment has actually increased at the same time as income from SFP is falling so another reason to discard it as a main driver.

There have been changes to the system to try and remove the excesses ie upper limits,and the active farmer requirements.
Do you really see farming being supported adequately post a EU pull out ,we were not before we joined the EU and farming was more valued then. If we are not there will be carnage in the industry.

Just a little note to make people aware . Be very careful of supermarket clains of paying producers more if you buy dearer milk the truth is at least half that money is ending up in foreign producers pockets who are not even supplying that milk because the money is being diveed up between all members of the producer coop not just the British ones. The supermarkets keep that one quiet when the public think they are helping

 

[ycbm]

I agree with you about the price of food. Personally I would rather pay more for e.g. milk so that dairy farmers get a decent price, and more for meat from animal reared to good welfare standards. But then I'm in the fortunate position of being able to afford that. What about people who don't have a lot of money to spend on groceries and who benefit from food being relatively cheap? They pay less tax anyway, so wouldn't they would lose out relative to well off people with the changes you favour?

I missed this in my blind state, sorry.

You have a good point. In time, the answer is exactly what you have proposed earlier (maybe on another thread) that everyone should receive a 'living wage' whether in work or not. It will have to happen. Automation continues apace, with even my recent cataract operation now able to be done without a human, by a half million pounds machine!

How we get there, I've no idea. If I was a benign dictator, I'd start by subsidising core food like bread, milk and veg and wean the subsidies down as I increased lower end income.

It's an impossible mess right now, it will take decades to unwind the corruption of the labour market by working tax credits.

Another good place to start would be for the world to unite as one and make these corporations that have a GDP bigger than most countries in the world pay sensible taxes. And pigs might fly.