Will things improve or should I hang up my hunting coat?

[Patches]

Had a nightmare time hunting last weekend.

Miss P was galloping along with her nose on the floor. As soon as I could pick her head up...it was plunged with full force straight to the floor again. Worse going downhill. It was just a constant battle pulling and snatching against me over and over...no fun at all.

We would normally circle if brakes were a bit hit and miss, but last week we were on the headlands of ploughed arable fields. The first time I tried to circle, had her pecking and almost falling over in the soft plough. She also wouldn't stand for long at the "checks". She would be snatching and pulling then....even trying to run off at one point...inspite of every one else standing quietly.

The day culminated in me falling off as she ran with her nose on the floor straight at a fence, without noticing it as she was too busy fighting me. I was desperately trying to stop/steer her. She hit the sides to the fence with her right side, catapulting me into the fence before the ground. To add insult to injury, she then buggered off after the hounds!

I've just managed to get back on, having spent the entire week aching from head to toe....arms/shoulders/neck from the pulling...legs possibly from the mad run after her, tummy from the pulling I guess and my hip and right shoulder from the impact.

I don't know if I firmly believe it's a bitting issue. I think she just "goes over to the dark side". She was in a Waterford Universal on the lower ring. I've had her in a Myler Combination, KK Correction bit and her usual Myler MB05 Medium ported snaffle.

Whatever bit is in her mouth, the behaviour from her is identical. If I could stop the head plunging to the floor I think the issues of brakes and steering would go away. When her head was "up" we had some nice steady canters.

I can't jump anything with her running the way that she does anyway. It's not safe. There's no capacity to check her in front of ANY fence and approaching a fence with her head on the floor is not pretty....as proven by what happened last Sunday.

Master rode her home Sunday and she was doing it to him. Didn't go down too well as he had no gloves. He walloped her about the neck, perhaps over the head too, every time she did it. He informed me that I could do with doing the same during the "runs" as she soon stopped doing it. Problem is, how can that possibly help when the horse is going flat out with it's head on the floor? I am sure it would be counter-productive when she is in that frame of mind and would just go from flat out blindly running!

Master says to keep on going and she will settle....

Suggestions from American Gag to Cheltenham Gag to Grass reins all seem a viable option, but I just keep wondering if there's any point. Some of the bits we've used should have a different action, yet she doesn't react any differently to them. It's always the same problem.

Should I quit whilst I still have use of my legs?

 

[chestnut cob]

Grass reins and bring her out with us for a couple of days as it might calm her down a bit. You can get around all of our jumps so no issue with that.

 

[Patches]

Problem is, I need to go and only do the odd run, hoping I might be able to find a solution to the head chucking. Hubby won't like me spending £100, or thereabouts, for an hour's hunting at the most. Besides....until they stop trotting on the roads and the ground dries up for "proper hunting", I don't fancy it. I wouldn't normally do that much on the roads as she does have ringbone/sidebone.

I'd probably get sent home too! The shame. I guess I keep sticking with who we're going with as they're sympathetic and not really bothered by her actions.

 

[Starbucks]

I think you should persevere.

My mums current horse and the one she had before sound similar to P, especially when they first started. I think it is probably just a case of finding a strong enough bit that she respects. Mum has Caffrey in a Cheltenham gag, he's still a bit annoying but in some sort of control. He's never strong at all when he's not hunting but all that seems to go out of the window and he just seems to have an incredibly hard mouth!

She's a nice horse and not stupid, I'm sure she'll chill out a bit eventually.

 

[spacefaer]

Various thoughts..... I've tried a waterford universal and myler combination bit on a couple of strong horses - both with about the similar effect as an eggbutt snaffle TBH.

Have you tried something with a curb chain? I'm currently trying them both in a double bridle and that seems to work to get the heads up - I have one who takes hold of the bit and takes it down to the floor if he has a strong mouthpiece, but ignores me with a mild one..... a double seems to work for him as he respects the curb chain.

Also maybe think about a Kineton noseband - works brilliantly on leaning horses

Also have you thought about an overcheck - comes from driving and several people in our hunt seem to have success keeping their horses's heads up with them, sometimes with a Cheltenham gag too.

 

[Amy_08]

Oh poor you! Sounds a bit like my girl. She snatches, lunges, does this weird paddling thing with her front legs and then just tanks, with her head practically on the ground. I have tried many bits, but I also don't think ours is a bitting issue, it just blows her brains and she goes "in the zone" and theres no chance of me getting her out of it.

Mine does not like poll pressure, so the last time I took her someone on here suggested a Swales Pelham. It has no poll pressure, but has an elevating effect. So it worked, in that she didn't try to put her head down at all! I still had no brakes, but I had made headway (sort of) But she then went the other way and reared up, to evade it, only a couple of times. It might be worth a go. Also what about a standing martingale or a Market Harborough?

Last season I gave up with her as she scared me quite badly on a couple of occasions. I came out this season almost forgetting how bad she was. Unfortunately she is off games for a while and I have only been able to get out once this season, but I will give it another try when she's better. Its just such a buzz when they're behaving!!!

 

[Patches]

Ooo lots of thoughts there Spacefaer.

I am sorry but I've not actually heard of an overcheck. ***The shame at being so dumb!***

Currently her noseband is just a Cavesson with a flash. She only wears a flash hunting. We do see her tongue alot!

With P, she doesn't lean and get heavier...she violently snatches constantly. It's so tiring. I guess it gets worse the longer we're out...one because my arms and hands are aching by then with trying to keep hold of the reins and two because the more tired she is, the worse she is.

Of course...there's another reason...the more she succeeds in getting the reins off me to piddle off, the more she'll try to do it! :-0

I feel like such a pleb! Like Starbucks finds with her mum's horse, P never does ANYTHING like this unless on the hunt field.

She's worse when she's being overtaken...so I try to keep her up front...but then she's worse when she's closer to the hounds...so I put her at the back...but then she's worse when she has to chase the others. Do you spot a trend? She's just a pain! LOL

We had a fab half an hour at the hunt last week as they let me go ahead. The bloodhounds hunted me...was awesome seeing them work and the noise they made as they tracked me. I was with the Master of the hounds and Whipper in when they caught her. They told me to stay up front with them if I have any problems at future meets. Sadly, that's when it all went wrong....she was so focussed on the hounds she just didn't see the fence in front of her.

I wish I could be a mounted scent layer! They were awesome following such a fresh scent.....apparently I made the Master of the Hound's day seeing them work like that.

I'm not sure I want two reins out hunting....IF she's still going to snatch. It's alot to pick up again if it doesn't solve the problem, although I can see this is possibly the best route to take now. I noticed alot use the Cheltenham Gag hunting, but none use them with two reins, which I think it's supposed to be with.

She did have a curb on with the Myler...but clearly hated the combination bit.

At home, we do everything with the MB05....trips up the gallops, farm rides, jumping etc etc. She's a dobbin!

 

[star]

have you tried bridging your reins over her neck? mine snatches when he's going downhill because he gets unbalanced. he'll also do it on the flat if he's getting strung out and on the forehand and i try and take a pull. he doesn't do it at all if i keep my leg on and keep him up and together. if we're going downhill now i just bridge my reins over his neck. when he tries to snatch he ends up pulling down on his own neck and i just hang on and sit deep. it really seems to be working with him. have tried every bit going on him and now settled on a tom thumb - he has just enough respect for it so far.

 

[skewby]

Oh Patches, I was wondering the other day how you were getting on! Sounds like she was a nightmare, but also like you had some great times too good on you!

Did your instructor take her out for you?

Do you wear spurs? I rode a horse 20 miles for its owner once, only cos owner was stiff and mine was lame. It was a notorious snatcher, but as I wear spurs, every time she did it I braced my back and her snatch pulled the spur into her side. It "cured" her, at least for me that day! Does she pull you forward when she does it?

Well done you for persevering - also your hunt sounds lovely. Sorry you're sore, mine has done that to me countless times, it's amazing the muscles they get to! Hope you didn't bash yourself up too much in the fall, that does sound dangerous, if she's not even looking where she's going. I wonder will she just suddenly calm down?

How long do you keep her out for? Do you stay out all day? Is she very fit? xx

 

[JenHunt]

I think you should persevere. Ron used to be like this, the myler combo was great until he learnt that he could get out of it by shoving his head down. He's hunted in a double bridle now for the first half (ish) of the season. Once he's settled down from the excitement of it all he goes back to his ordinary snaffle and flash noseband.

He really should know better, he's hunted forever, and he's 14ish now, but he still gets wound up by hunting at the start of the season!

do you have anyone who could maybe take her for you for a couple of days to help? it may just be that she needs to come home tired!

don't let it get you down or put you off though! definitely persevere with her!

 

[Cliqmo]

Just a thought but have you had her back and saddle checked recently?

I appreciate from what you have written that the cause of her behaviour is naughtiness but to have the exact same reaction in every bit you've tried is quite unusual??

I would personally try a swales pelham, it is typically used as a driving bit and must use double reins but it has virtually no poll pressure and a whole lot of mouth and curb pressure so might help your problem?

 

[skewby]

She's tried that ali! (Lol sorry patches am not a stalker, honest!)

Can't remember, have you tried an american gag? Mine totally p|ssed off with me XC, worse than he has done in years and years, including hunting. My instructor wanted to put him in an american gag and said, it will stop him. We couldn't find one big enough, so went for a liverpool (as it's a driving bit I could get one!), took him XC with a good friend there to deliberately wind him up, and I had the most amazing brakes I've ever had on that horse. Just a thought for you! I too am stuck as to why a horse would yank down on a strong bit, unless she's just got so much adrenaline going on, she feels nothing.

Did she hunt before you had her? Just wondering did she have a bad/crazy experience before now?

 

[Patches]

Just a thought but have you had her back and saddle checked recently?

I appreciate from what you have written that the cause of her behaviour is naughtiness but to have the exact same reaction in every bit you've tried is quite unusual??

I would personally try a swales pelham, it is typically used as a driving bit and must use double reins but it has virtually no poll pressure and a whole lot of mouth and curb pressure so might help your problem?

________________________________________________________

I don't have the same reaction, whatever bit I use, on a farm ride, a hoolie up the gallops, hacking, schooling or jumping though.

As it happens her saddle was checked about three weeks ago, when we had the new pony, and the osteo is coming on Tuesday afternoon. Teeth were done on the 14th September.

It is ONLY a hunting thing. On Sunday when I moved ahead of the pack to allow the hounds to track me (because she was just so stupid I didn't want her careering down a steep bank we were about to go down) she returned to her normal self. Infact, I was actually rather impressed with her, that, in spite of her silliness she quite happily left the entire pack of hounds and horses and went ahead alone.

We had some lovely canters and jumped all the fences along that "run" because we were on our own.

 

[Patches]

Never hunted before I had her. This is her first season, at the tender age of eleven! LOL

She's so safe and sane in every other respect. It honestly is like she goes over to the dark side when hunting.

Henryhorn has suggested an American Gag too. I guess I should go and buy one. Problem I have is that I can't test her reaction to anything until I go hunting, as she will never act like that at any other time.

We go each week on a wing and a prayer really....hoping what we use will work.

I've decided that IF I do go again, I will just stay for one or two runs. See how she feels and quit whilst I am ahead (well hopefully while I'm ahead!)

Although I wouldn't be able to jump, I keep wondering about trying some grass reins on her. She doesn't always pull me out of the saddle, but it's hard to not be tipped forward when you are in a two point, forward seat and going downhill. Even if she only pulls my weight on to her neck/wither (as I tend to hold the breastplate "handle") she does still get me off balance.

She was that bad last Sunday that numerous attempts to bridge the reins failed. She wouldn't stop snatching long enough for me to gather the reins and bridge them.

I did have stupid gloves on though. I thought they'd be fine, they were sealskinz and so toasty, but as soon as the reins became wet (eventa-grip reins) I couldn't hold them. As I say, she's a clever toad, she will pull more once she realises you can't hold the reins for any reason.

I've been told to buy Roeckl "spider-web" gloves and use my rubber reins with leather notches/stops down them.

 

[star]

use my rubber reins with leather notches/stops down them.

ouch - watch those, they can still pull them through your hands but they just hurt a million times more!

does she do it most downhill or when you're trying to get her to steady etc? do you put your leg on when you try and take a check? i was making the mistake of just pulling back until the penny dropped and i realised i needed to use my leg to get the back end more underneath, sit back down in the saddle and bring the head and neck up in front of you. this has really really helped with the yanking. he now only does it if i let him fall onto his forehand. if i can keep him up and together he's ok. it has helped as he has got fitter. can you practice cantering downhill etc in between hunts to improve her balance, practice pushing her on and then collecting her with seat and legs.

 

[Weezy]

Agree with above advice - American Gag and bridging your reins. You also need to work on your own core strength to help keep yourself from being pulled forwards.

 

[larkwood]

my horse did this the first year, our instructor suggested it was a fitness issue, seems the horse drops it's neck/head so it can go faster as it is more balanced, unfortunately this is usually to the detriment of vision and the ability to dodge items (like fences, in your case) as so much weight is on the front end.

We worked on the horse to strengthen the back end and this worked, the other thing was to not let the horse gallop on, but to bring her back to trot each time the head went down and then back to canter but in an outline.

The bits did nothing except give me more leverage to pull her head up, it took some time to develop the muscle and every now and then when she gets really tired and the field is moving fast she still motions to drop her head and I have to pull her up.

As for the Hunting, we (4 Shires) have not had any problems with the weather as most of our hunts are on limestone which drains well, so plenty of turning space!

 

[Patches]

I know! I did use those reins a few weeks ago...PAIN AND AGONY! The Master says they are better though....but I'm wondering about just using the good old fashioned "nobbly" rubber reins.

I'm going to take her over the fields at home tomorrow...we can canter downhill here. Problem is, I know she won't "do it" as she won't be in "chasing" mode.

Her canter work on the flat has improved no end since we've been doing alot of faster work. She is, however, worse when tired. By the time I've gotten to the stage of thinking "had enough of this" we're so far from home that it'd be quicker to continue the hunt as hacking back would have me arriving after the rest of the hunt had gone home and well after dark.

I think that's why I'll make sure to only do the first couple of runs for a few times from now on.....work on this problem, if I can. Treat each meet as a "schooling exercise".

I tend to have my leg braced forward and leaning back. One hand yanked up, other on the breastplate whilst doing my best "Noooooooo!!!!!!" wail. **the shame**

I really should sit more when she's playing up but I have this bizarre notion that the "poor thing" doesn't deserve my lardy arse sat on her back when she's working so hard! LOL

Right...sit more..."duck feet" as my instructor would say and get my damn heels on. I'm not sure what leg aids I use as it's usually a bit hairy and all I can focus on is my breakfast contents tenaciously attempting to exit my stomach from whence they came, combined with mental images of stannah stair lifts! Ooops!

 

[Patches]

Agree with above advice - American Gag and bridging your reins. You also need to work on your own core strength to help keep yourself from being pulled forwards.

I challenge anyone to not get pulled forward with the constant pulling and snatching. She gallops along quite nicely and then **bam** the head tanks to the floor with such force she actually hurts my neck. I was quite shocked at how easily she was getting the Master out of the saddle....and all he was doing was walking! She doesn't get me forwards unless I'm in a two point seat and then it's usually more when I've let go of the breastplate to attempt to regain the reins for the hundredth time.

That said...I've had four babies. Core strength is never going to be my strong point. lol

Definitely see what you mean. Do I need to drag my "abdo trimer" contraption out of the loft? It's sat next to my step "n" twist machine. ))))

Problem with her is that she's manageable until such time when she really does drag you forwards. As soon as she sees she can do it, she gets more and more violent in her head snatching.

I feel like a pleb...I really do! In some ways I wish she'd use this trick at other times, apart from hunting. At least it would be easier to school out of her. Was a bit gutted last weekend when it was made clear that no one else fancied getting on her. Poor Master gave up his lovely horse to get on her and "sort her out". Thing is, there were no runs left at this point, so all he was doing was hacking her back to the trailer. I'd have liked his input on her when they were going.

Love the Master's etiquette. He's offered his horse's bum up for violating.....told me to run into her if I can't stop! PMSL....I wouldn't do that of course, well not intentionally!

 

[Weezy]

Oh do use it, if offered, always good to have an anchor point when necessary

I wasn't meaning that you are weak and feeble, but any added strength will help keep your stable and won't make it such an easy feat - saying that, a human cannot compete with the strength of a horse! One thing you must remember to do, and yes it is scary at a gallop, is get your leg on when you feel her about to do it. I think someone above suggested spurs and I would agree with this, kick her back up into your hand. Or use a stick. She certainly sounds as though she needs a very sharp *NO* to make things more comfortable for you!

Don't lose heart tho

 

[Patches]

LOL @ using the Master's horse to stop into.

I would think with most other hunts you'd get sent home for doing that! :-D

I am weak and feeble....well I feel it after the first hour and a half. I don't mind her going fast, not remotely, I just wish she'd go with her head up!

Will put the spurs back on. Last time I had them on I took them off as all go-faster aids were not required. Yeee haa!

 

[SpottedCat]

It's not actually a big deal that you can only test brakes out hunting - you'll remember I had the same issue XC a couple of years ago. The only place I could test brakes was eventing. So I identified somewhere safe to circle in order to pull up and then went out of the start box knowing that if I had not got suitable brakes I knew where I was going to stop. I also went knowing that it could be a very expensive day out if I only jumped the first 4 fences!

Ring Heather at neue schule and see what she suggests - you don't have to buy it from her, and you can think laterally. She recommended a waterford pelham for me, the online place did not deliver so I bought a jointed pelham from the saddlers - worked a treat. She gave me a list of 2 or 3 to try (including a liverpool driving bit) so I had options to work through.

The other thing is, every time she does that to you, I would be putting a fist in her neck to brace myself and with one short rein yanking sharply and as hard as I could upwards. Make it horrible for her when she does it.

 

[Lollii]

Patches - everything you have written in this thread could have come from me, it is EXACTLY what my horse does, I have been really upset by it as I brought this horse as a hunter from Ireland!!

I tried a Kineton noseband but it just made him worse, I have also tried every bit going: NS Waterfords, Universals, Gags etc. etc. etc. I am tryng a pelham next time as he is hacking really nicely in it but as with you he doesn't do anything when we are hacking ONLY when hunting, he is not a strong horse at home, in fact he is the opposite.

The only thing that half worked for me was to change my running martingale to a standing, it did make quite a lot of difference for some reason and I did actually get him to do a half decent jump rather than charging at the jump & crashing through with his nose on the ground!

Let me know if you find anything that works, good luck x

 

[AmyMay]

I think it was HenryHorn who suggested a gag????? Get one in her gob for next time. You both enjoy it sooo much. It's just a case of find a bit that works for you. And A gag might well do the trick.

And don't think about riding pretty, think about riding effective xxx

 

[kit279]

I have a grey horse that will (if permitted) do the exact same thing XC - I daren't hunt him but I know what would happen... What might really help you is to have a chat with a racing yard lad or similar who have to learn to take the racehorses up the gallops in a snaffle and teach them not to lean and pull. You'll get to have the additional trick of a stronger bit (I recommend a Cheltenham gag for a leaner) but the trick of bridging the reins and giving the horse a little yank to say 'oi, behave' is one that is done perfectly by the racing jockeys. I know it feels like you're getting yanked but have a look at the spindly little jockeys and see that it isn't about using brute strength to stop the buggers, it's about riding in a way that discourages bad behaviour and rudeness.


Otherwise, does your hunt have a nagsman or similar to take your horse out for you for a few days? They do settle but you need someone who won't take no for an answer..!

 

[Patches]

I think it was HenryHorn who suggested a gag????? Get one in her gob for next time. You both enjoy it sooo much. It's just a case of find a bit that works for you. And A gag might well do the trick.

And don't think about riding pretty, think about riding effective xxx

______________________________________
Yes HH did suggest the gag, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

I was looking at American Gags last night. I have no idea which mouthpiece I should try. Alot are single jointed but there are also some happy mouth roller ones. Do I ignore the fact she's not fond of a single jointed bit (pulls faces and opens mouth alot) and focus on the fact that I need to be safe?

I quite like the idea of a Kineton. The best combination I've had out hunting was a KK Correction bit and a Worcester Noseband. Ok, we had zero brakes as she just grabbed the ported fixed bar, but her head was up.

I wasn't sure about using the Worcester (and therefore the Kineton) on a jointed bit though. Surely that could make it VERY painful in the roof of the mouth for the horse when rein aids are applied?

Should I be worrying less about her, more about me?

 

[SpottedCat]

Yes HH did suggest the gag, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

I was looking at American Gags last night. I have no idea which mouthpiece I should try. Alot are single jointed but there are also some happy mouth roller ones. Do I ignore the fact she's not fond of a single jointed bit (pulls faces and opens mouth alot) and focus on the fact that I need to be safe?

I quite like the idea of a Kineton. The best combination I've had out hunting was a KK Correction bit and a Worcester Noseband. Ok, we had zero brakes as she just grabbed the ported fixed bar, but her head was up.

I wasn't sure about using the Worcester (and therefore the Kineton) on a jointed bit though. Surely that could make it VERY painful in the roof of the mouth for the horse when rein aids are applied?

Should I be worrying less about her, more about me?

Yes, absolutely - forget her, if she is behaving nicely none of this will have any effect - it's not like you are some novice balancing on the reins!

You can also use the kineton in combination with a mexican grakle if she opens her mouth with the single jointed bit - I did this the other week when SJing.

 

[Patches]

I wish she'd do it at other times, only for the purpose of having something to work on!

I just took her across our fields. We canter up/down fields, through a pretty deep hollow in a flat field and then did five laps in a continual forward canter of a 15 acre field. The idea being, in my mind, that the more tired she got the more likely she would be to do "it".

Did she snatch her head once? NO!!!!! Grrrr

She was in her normal Myler Medium port comfort snaffle, no flash. I did have reins bridged, had spurs on and was carrying a whip. She just didn't try it.

She's so frustrating!

 

[SpottedCat]

Look, her adrenaline isn't up, so she won't.

I can school B all day long in a snaffle and cavesson. I can jump anything XC schooling, I can SJ at home, it's all lovely. As soon as we get to a competition and his blood is up I can't hold one side of him. It's one of those things, I had to experiment in competition, you have to experiment out hunting - such is life.

 

[Patches]

Obviously I am pleased she's not like she is out hunting all of the time. She'd be a nightmare to own if she was.

It's just so frustrating as it makes it more time consuming to find an answer when it's something I only do a couple of times a month. At least it does put to rest any concerns that it's saddle/teeth/back related. As I've said before, I really do wonder if it's more of a mental issue than bitting.

I need to borrow some hounds! ))