WILLIAM urgent answers please

H

henryhorn

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www.narramorehorses.blogspot.com
Sorry in here because more people will see it.
Have you had a horse with arthroscopy treatment?
William has deteriorated suddenly and has had the joint flushed out again, the vet is advising the above at a Cullompton vet hospital and I need to know the cost and likely success rate.
His vet bill already stands at almost two grand and I am in a quandry whether we say go ahead or nay.. he isn't in terrible pain but there are three options, general anaesthetic and flush joints out, open the area and do the same, or this arthroscope thing which is condsidered the best.
Cost mentioned at a guess £700 plus vat..
Can you respond if you know anything about this op and has it worked for you?
many thanks..
 
Sorry I have no experience of this. I do know someone had a horse injected intto the joint and that became infected, so after weeks of hesitation, (it was a very good horse), she had to have it put down because nothing could be done to save it.

Sorry to be depressing.

I wish you good luck and send ((vibes))
 
No experience of it sorry but is it like keyhole surgery that humans have. Less invasive !

Difficult one to call for you, he's been through so much, so deserves another chance but how long and at what cost do you continue. I really feel for you all, it is such a hard decision. If only we had that glass ball to look into the future !
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Bailey had arthroscopic surgery on his fore fetlock. It's a full knock down procedure and a camera type implement is put inside the joint to have a mooch about and this is used to help with flushing out infection and debris through the instrument. It's basically like human keyhole surgery.

In Bailey's case he couldn't be helped, but his bill for the surgery and aftercare (he had to stay in on IV drip for 5 days) was over £1000k

Poor William. It's so devastating to hear his latest setback. I'm a pony patter at the best of times, but you have to consider the viability of the costs versus value and future use. I guess when you consider what you have spent, you feel an urge to carry on otherwise the other money was wasted. However, is it a case of chucking good money after bad? Poor wee mite.
 
Very difficult one for you. Importantly; do you have a really proper horsey friend with experience of either decision who you can talk this through with? Failing that, the vet? Ours is very good at helping with these choices. He sorted my friend out when she chose to have her horse put down. She recommends him now.

You need to decide with a hardened heart perhaps?
 
Sue I can't help you on the cost front, but I have worked with horses over here and in the US that have had this done - also my Mother has had it done twice on one of her knees. In all bar one case that I have worked with, it was a huge success! The one case where it wasn't successfull, was earlier this year and that was nothing to do with the operation as such - 4 weeks post op the foal developed acute Gutteral Pouch Myloencephalitis and had to be PTS.
 
It is a difficult one Sue but in my experience the arthroscopy is the only thing that will give you true answers. If the surgeons go in with the camera they can at least tell you exactly how bad the damage is, plus then give you a prognosis. I would ask can you be either present or at the other end of the phone. At least on that basis if the outcome doesnt look good you can ask them to stop & at least overdose with aneasthetic to euthenise. Best I can come up with.
Sorry, I am trying to be practical at the same time. Big Hugs to you all.
Janet M
Xxx
 
oh so sorry to hear that he's gone down hill again but he's already proved he's a fighter lets hope he pulls through.
 
Arthroscopy is the least invasive treatment, just two or three portals and lots of fluid flushed through the joint. Best case scenario is one flushing reduces the infection to a manageable level, worst case is that two or three are required and obviously the more you have the worse the prognosis and the greater the risk of the anaesthetic.

Putting emotions aside, how much is the foal worth, is he insured? If he is a valuable foal and/or is insured then I'd say go for it. If not it is a personal decision how much you may be willing to spend.

Good luck and fingers crossed for William.
 
I should've said, Bailey's operation wasn't a success but that had nothing to do with the procedure itself. He recovered from the surgery fine. The damage to his joint was just too severe to be repairable to enable him to return to work.
 
Not the same at all I know, but the operation was offered to my dog who has OCD in his elbow - the cost was to be over £1000 plus medication etc.

Good luck with William all thoughts are with you.
 
I don't know anything about the procedure but I know the head veterinary nurse at Culmstock if that is where he would be going. (Western Counties Equine Clinic?). The vets over there are very well thought of - I know several people whose horses have gone there as it is about 20 miles from where I live.
 
I know of someone who has had an athroscope done on their foal and it was not cheap (I think about £1500 - £2000 including a 4 day stay in hospital) but it did pull through and in her case (I think she was v sentimentally attached to foal) it was worth it. But she didn't want the foal for anything other than her own pleasure.

As others have said it is the lease invasive method and as I understand success is reasonably realistic.

IMHO I would be tempted to give it a go. I haven't read all of your posts about William but it sounds like he has really come far and is a little fighter. Would be a shame to lose him now.

However, you do have to be a little heard heated and weigh up the cost (as I'm sure you well know) and the eventual worth of the foal - plus his future quality of life. not an easy decision by all means.

My heart goes out to you - wishing you and your daughter all the best, whatever decision you come to.

xx
 
Thanks everyone, the replies are helpful.
I normally sell foals for £1500, so this one is already over the value, and no we don't insure because we have so many horses.
I think it would be Western Equine , my own vet is incredible but doesn't have that equipment himself. Tonight he flushed out the joint and put antibiotics directly into the area, he can open up the area himself in his own operating room (that's what they always did previous to getting the sophisticated equipment) or we can gor for the bigger op. I have said I want an accurate cost before we go in any direction, the foal could come home pretty early afterwards as we are very experienced with after care ourselves, it would be a case of how soon it could be moved.
CCj is desperate to have the op done, her Dad is totally against it and my heart says yes, my head says no..
Bear in mind we still have the dam and sire here so can try again, this one would of course be the full brother to Jethro who we also lost to joint ill, so that is also a factor, is there a problem with that genetic make-up causing this, (though we have got another full sibling Callisto who is absolutely fine). I just don't know.
As for talking it over with horsy friends, I doubt I would find such a depth of knowledge as there is on here anywhere else!
vet is coming between 10am and 1 tomorrow and I reckon he will either be much worse or the same.. If he's worse vet says a decision should be made there and then as to op or pts.
I can't tell you what a good little chap he's been, he has tolerated numerous injections in his legs, neck, bum, chest and is friendly and loving through it all, which is why we are loathe to give up..
I'll post again tomorrow, tonight it's a ssad evening in the HH household...
 
My event horse had this done over 4 years ago when he was 8 he has evented ever since and been totally sound.My friend had the same thing done to her horse last year but saddly it did not work
 
HH If it were me I would definitely not consider opening up the joint, particularly in a young foal. Arthroscopy is a risk and there are no guarentees that one will be enough. If the cost of one surgery is acceptable to you, you could always give him the chance and then make the decision if needs be afterwards. You have a sensible head on your shoulders. We dealt with many owners who thought the more procedures they went for the better the outcome...
 
Judging from your latest response, if you have got the money, if he is holding up tomorrow and vet thinks he is strong enough, go for it, but perhaps make this the last time, should there be any further problems. Fingers crossed for him tonight and tomorrow.
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HH my thoughts are with you.My horse had this done as a youngster and is now in full work only ever been unsound after a nasty kick and will hunt all day in any condition. Not sure on the cost as the lady who bred him paid for it. However it did devalue him and I was given him as a 5 year old.
Good luck
 
Oh god poor William
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I don't know anything about the operation I'm afraid.
What a terrible decision to make after everything he's already been through. I don't envy you making this call
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If he has this op what are the chances of it being successful? Whatever decision you make I know you will put William first, sending you lots and lots of love and hugs xxxxxx
 
My horse had arthroscopy to remove fractured bit of pedal bone from coffin joint.My local vet who is brilliant did it at his clinic. Was total success two very small entry holes and was back riding him within a few weeks. Amazing. Cost was about £2000 all in, well worth it to have my boy back sound!
 
Your post with the latest on William brought tears...

Not much help on the op I'm afraid but it's nice to see how much good and knowledgeable advice there is on this forum.Hope it helps...
All my thoughts are with you, CCj and Little William.
 
Oh gosh what awful news, sorry to hear this

I think deep down you have to think about him, and what are his chances, he has had a tough start and is this going to be even more for him to cope with

Having said that, he is a fighter and you want that instinct in horses. Being sad my heart will always over rule my pocket, and sometimes you need to try to see if it will work. Last time it was the right decision for him...look how he has turned out in such a short time

Fingers crossed for you HH & CCJ, I do hope tomorrow morning brings some better news for the little chap
 
can't help with the decision or anything about the operation. All i can say is Western Counties are VERY good (have to be them as only vet in Cullompton most def doesn't have the facilities!). Western Counties are my vets and they fixed my lad which at several times I didn't think possible. They are equine specialists and their practice is something to be seen as completely purpose built from the floor up from the xray and examination rooms to the stables and lameness 'run'. Infact housemate's horse is going to them this week for a full lameness work up....

Serious vibes for william and i know you will make the best long term decision which ever that may be...

Katie
 
No experience of the procedure, but I know Western Counties at CUllompton well - all in our yard use them (40+ horses) - and they are great. Not cheap though.
 
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