Wind Sucking.. Old wives tail?? Or the truth??

J

Jacks Mum

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Hi, just a quick question..

I was always always on the understanding the horses kept around horses that crib / windsuck could copy and pick it up n basically 'learn' it..

A lovely little mare has now come to the yard, retired racehorse and she is wind sucking. The owners say that there is complete evidence that it is a genetic problem and other horses don't pick it up.. They either do it or don't.

I am very open minded and always say 'we should learn something new every day' so would really like to research this. We obviously don't want any of ours picking it up as have youngsters on the yard and they can all see each other.

I know when I worked in racing it was a concern others picked it up, n also whilst working at TB stud, several yearlings did it and the head man said it was because they'd been with their mares to long n copied them..

Would love you views and opinions as looking on 'the net' the only thing I can find is from Parelli..

Thanks x
 
My mare is a windsucker. She is turned out with 5 other mares including a youngster. She is stabled next to and opposite many horses. In 3 years not one horse on the yard has shown any interest in what she is doing.
I feel the ones that pick it up are on the same routine that causes the problem in the first place.
So if you are on a good routine. I wouldnt worry.
 
I knew a mare that did it, and by the time her foal was 4 months he was a windsucker. Had a livery who was a windsucker, none of the other horse copied him
 
I've never known a horse to 'catch' the habit. The yard I worked on had one of the worst cribbers I've ever seen, she was a broodmare who was in a field adjacent to yearlings. Not one of them-both the yearlings and her own foals-picked up the habit.

A friend of mine sent two horses away to the same yard to be broken, they both returned cribbing.

I think it's the environment rather than any individual horses that cause vices.

I've seen two horses (both in different yards) start weaving because their morning feeds were left outside the stables over night and the horses got stressed about it.

Think there was an experiment done fairly recently, where they were trying to get a horse to learn a task by watching another do it. None of the horses learned by watching the others.
 
old wives tale. none of mine have picked up windsucking nor any other habit from watching stable mates.

My older horse was next to a weaver for two years just him and her, and now he has a door kicker and a windsucker and he pays not the slightest attention. My younger on was stabled with a windsucker since she was a yearling and never showed the slightest attention nor inclination to copy, shes the door banger ;)
 
I don't think it can be learned, it all depends how stressy your horse is in the first place. They can perhaps wind each other up and have emotional effects on each other but not copy that type of behaviour in my opinion.
 
I've had several windsucking liveries, including one who was so bad that we had to put electric wire on every bit of her box that she could do it on, and she colicked frequently.

I've never had another horse pick it up.

Now, door kicking on the other hand, is a different matter entirely.
 
I've never seen another horse copy a windsucker either. It seems to be environmental rather than genetic or mimicry.

If horses did copy each other I'd be taking the hairy cob boy to watch Valegro training.:D
 
My horse Bo is a windsucker... He is with my other horse GK 24/7 and in the paddock next to 4-5 other horses.

Neither GK or the others have ever shown any indication that they are going to copy him.

I agree with mandwhy, I think it has to do with an individual's temperment and the management they recieve. A stressy horse in a stressy environment is more likely to pick up the habit, but I doubt it would be a learnt or copied behaviour.
 
I think there is a genetic element. Two of our arabs weave - one 'inherited' the tendency from his sire and the other his dam. Both had a very stressful young life though - one was rejected by his dam and the other was intensively produced for the show ring. It will be interesting seeing if Spud's younger brother ever weaves - his dam was old when she had him and had given up weaving herself by that point (far too efforty...), and we've made a point of ensuring that Felix has grown up living out 24/7 in a stable herd of other babies. He tosses his head in a l'oreal way sometimes but touch wood no weaving. Mind you he's not living with his dancing fool of a brother yet so it remains to be seen what effect that would have on him.

A couple of articles summarising recent research:
http://www.arabianlines.com/horse_health/wales_uni/equine_stereotypic.htm
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/1371/34745.html

Windsuckers are also likely to be triggered by ulcers so that may be worth bearing in mind...
 
Don't know how to word this correctly, but the words stressed and environment keep getting thrown around. Stressy, genetic due to how the horse deals with his/her situation. Not necessarily because people are doing the wrong thing. It's how ulcers tie in too. Worrying about things that shouldn't be a stressor. It's all individual. We got in a horse last year that we knew was going to be a long term horse. Very backwards and upside down. Brought him home in the evening. We heard all manner of horror stories of him being scary in the horse box. He was fine. Anyway, next morning while getting feeds ready I heard that sound. Thing is because I only have stable chains across the doors her had to angle his neck to crib on a corner of doorway. So he knew exactly what he was doing. I called owner that morning. We weren't told and she had no knowledge of him being a cribber. It's always nice landing new people in a heap. With his build and near impossible to put weight on I knew he had stomach issues. I said as much but owner not inclined to spend so much money on a problem she wasn't sure I wasn't maybe making up. Well fate intervened and he colicked. A small gas colic but enough to get on gastro guard and then a buffer after. Horse started picking up weight and is flying now but he is a horrid cribber still. He wears a collar. But when I listen to the stories of the family it's easy to see why he internalises things quite easy. That is genetic. I don't think horse ever had bad care. Outward you would never think he would be stressy. He rides beautiful and is not "crazy". But he really does internalise a lot. We've gone very slow with him on everything. He's out all day and has adlib forage at all times. Just his mind.

So throwing out stress, environment, and genetic is fine but it's more than that really.

Terri
 
My boy never cribbed still be was about 13! However this was aboutue same time we stopped competeing and turned to a light happy hack due to another problem. He was in over night next to a mare who did it terribly and had all her life. Im sure the boredem played a part with him. I brought him home and was out with my 2 young horses 5yo and more recently a weanling neither picked it up though was a concern. Sadly lost him to colic recently
 
Racehorse is a weaver when stressed. Lami pony is stabled next to him, when he was on nix rest I watched lami pony study weaving racehorse for a few minutes before copying.............but after 5 weaves he stopped shook his head and went back to kneeing the door!!!!!!

There was a wind sucker on an old yard, no one copied it but the poor owners got so many nasty comments.
 
I understand there is a definite link between windsucking/cribbing and gastric ulcers, which is kind of borne out by the high incidence of both in race horses, and the breaker referred to above could have suffered them too, due to the stress factor. But IMO there is a learned behaviour element too - if you sort the digestion the windsucking does remain to some extent.
Always worth trying the test for ulcers and feeding as though they have them.
As regards electric fencing can you imagine having a sore tummy which only gulps of air could relieve and then having the means of getting that air denied to you?? The reason that cribbers learn to windsuck if the surface they grasp is denied them is because it serves a purpose, it seems to me.
 
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Never known a horse learn wind sucking from another but have seen horses pick up weaving and fence munching and defiantly door kicking. Would not want my horses next to a horse with any of these vices tbh but that's because it annoys me as much as anything
 
Mixture of genes and environment.

So horses are all born with different personalities, different ways of responding to the environment - and they're also born with either a high, low or moderate risk of being windsuckers/cribbers.

A horse with a high risk may still never start, if they live a natural herd based life, aren't weaned in a stressful way, have plenty of equine company, and are handled sensitively during training.

Equally, a horse with a low risk can still become a weaver if they're kept in really hideous conditions, but it's much less likely.

High, medium or low risk is inherited from sire and dam.

Horses don't copy this - it's not a natural behaviour, a stereotypy is a response to abnormal environmental conditions, it's the same as e.g. remember the Romanian orphans kept in cribs with no human contact who sit rocking back and forth? How often do you see that in a child raised normally? Windsucking/cribbing is the same as this - it is triggered by a poor environment.

The reason e.g. people on racing yards perpetuate the myth that horses copy each other is that all horses on these yards are exposed to the same poor environment, not that they're watching each other.

Stereotypical behaviours are functional - they help the animal cope with the poor environment. Stopping them from carrying out the behaviour actually increases chronic stress levels e.g. http://fws.aber.ac.uk/rec/MCBTPW and means they're forced to try to find another (and usually equally annoying to the humans who caused the behaviour in the first place) stereotypical behaviour.
 
jenz87 said:
My mare is a windsucker. She is turned out with 5 other mares including a youngster. She is stabled next to and opposite many horses. In 3 years not one horse on the yard has shown any interest in what she is doing.
I feel the ones that pick it up are on the same routine that causes the problem in the first place.
So if you are on a good routine. I wouldnt worry.
Click to expand...

This. Diet, routine, breed all influence strongly. In most circumstances if those are good, copying won't be an issue, my chap certainly didn't copy the chronic wind sucker and crib biter opposite him.
 
When I galloped at the track in America we had about 30 horses at all times. Two of the trainers I worked for over 12 years had very few cribbers. I can count the number on two hands. At all times they had access to hay. Came over here and was shocked to see how little hay was offered to horses. Or haylage. Kept hearing how it makes them fat. Well that's utter crap. The harder work they're in the less forage they want but it should still be on offer. Saw far more stable vices in racehorse barns here than back home. And yet horses here are mostly on farms in which quite a few get turnout. No turnout back home and yet fewer vices. Very few colics either. Before gastro guard came out we used to give buffers before feeding too. In a syringe. The pink stuff. And no it was no drugs. A pink liquid you bought in bulk from the tack shop.

And the breaker we had was cribbing before he came to us. But of course no one says anything and then plays stupid. God forbid they could have done anything for him when it first started. You only had to look at him to see he wasn't right.

But I think the worst is smart arses that think anyone who has a cribber are horrible people who don't know how to keep horses. Snotty comments from people who haven't a clue. Once it's a habit even getting the horse sorted medically most likely won't stop it all together. It does release endorphins and so they then relax. You can do surgery in which you plant rings inbetween the front top teeth. The only time it causes pain is if they grab to suck.

Terri
 
I've never had one copy it. Interestingly, a now retired mare (ex racehorse) arrived with extreme wind sucking tendencies. She has lived out all winter (with company, ad lib hay and an open barn)
She is no longer cribbing whilst eating, although still wanders off for a few gulps when she's finished, before moving off with her friends. So pretty strong stress link with her I think.

I would advocate against collars/ preventive measures - I'll try and find the link to a study done a while back, but it showed the increase of endorphine receptors on the brain(?) ( way out of my knowledge field here!!!) was lowered by the cribbing action. Therefore preventing a horse from performing this behaviour increases its stress level still further :( it also showed colic incidences were no higher among horses performing the behaviour than those who don't.

(I do appreciate some people have strong reasons behind preventing behaviour, even though its something I wouldn't choose to do personally :)
 
There was an article about this recently in Horse and Hound magazine. It said that horses don't copy each others vices. Will try and find it as it was quite interesting.
 
my sisters mare picked it up from another one! he was a livery at ours for about a month and wind sucked and cribbed on the field fence, it took her a day to copy it and now shes in a collar at all times! little sod.... she never showed any signs of it before he came!
 
I think that horses learn things that they find of benefit to them. Several of mine have learnt to kick the gate when people are arriving or leaving. At first, it was just the oldie who did it, then the others picked it up. They do it because they know they are likely to get fuss or food (not from me). Whether they learnt from each other or not is hard to say but they wouldn't have learnt without the re-enforcement of food etc.

Horses windsuck to relieve stress. If they aren't stressed they won't find it rewarding so won't copy it.
 
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