Winter behaviour change. Ideas?

[maya2008]

Pony is 5 - will turn 6 next year. This is our second winter with her and I have history on her 3yo winter. She is, for most of the year, an absolute angel.

3yo winter - was being broken to drive. Ran off repeatedly once winter set in and also spent the winter annoying her person and field mates through exuberant behaviour in general. They decided she wouldn’t make a driving pony and she came to us in the summer of her 4yo year.

4yo winter - here with us. Started running off with daughter after a wonderful summer, graduated to son and then to me. She was wound up all winter - I could manage her but she just wanted to run constantly on her forehand. Once rebalanced she was better and she did work well eventually once her brain was occupied with other things. Gave her a few months of schooling and thought - well, she was 4 turning 5 and a mare, nothing to worry about there. March came and angelic pony mode resumed.

This winter we made it until today without her running off with anyone. She has been picking fights with her field mate though since the grass stopped growing - who has pulled something kicking her high enough to get her ear (would have been interesting to watch that!).

Both last year and the year before she came in around the clocks changing and onto hay/haylage. This year she has stayed out and on grass and has stayed sane until it stopped growing. Haven’t clipped her this year either, there is plenty of food available and she isn’t cold.

So - could it be vitamin E? Is there anything else that drops in grass once it is no longer actively growing? She’s on grass and Codlivine original supplement in a handful of chaff. Feed is the same year round.

 

[IrishMilo]

I would start adding a decent amount of salt to her feed, a heavy vitamin E supplement, rug her up more than you think necessary and feed as much forage as she'll eat - I appreciate you have a few of these covered already. If that didn't work I'd probably get the vet's opinion on some workup ideas, it could be the cold weather is exacerbating pain somewhere?

 

[DabDab]

Yes, I would guess at some kind of muscle issue bugging her and trying high dose vit e and rugging. Speaking from personal human experience, some muscle sensations can feel so odd, that it really does make you want to do all sorts of odd things movement-wise to try and relieve it.

My old pssm1 horse was horrendous in the winter until I got the hang of managing him. Without adjustment to feed, increased hacking workload and a huge amount of rugging he rapidly became explosive to ride and handle and a liability to turn out with other horses as soon as the grass stopped growing.

 

[maya2008]

I would start adding a decent amount of salt to her feed, a heavy vitamin E supplement, rug her up more than you think necessary and feed as much forage as she'll eat - I appreciate you have a few of these covered already. If that didn't work I'd probably get the vet's opinion on some workup ideas, it could be the cold weather is exacerbating pain somewhere?

Why salt? I didn’t think of that one!

It froze earlier in December without changing her behaviour so I don’t think it’s cold itself that triggers her - that was one of our theories last year though and that’s why we didn’t clip this year. She is currently sporting the warmest, fluffiest coat known to man with cosy ears proving it works.

On the one hand I think possibly muscle pain - triggered by lack of something. It doesn’t present like obvious pssm because she’s fine the rest of the year. Yet my pssm pony did run off randomly if she was symptomatic so I have been thinking it could be something similar. On the other - ponies in pain don’t usually spend their ‘off’ time playing exuberantly and annoying everyone in sight so…

 

[maya2008]

Yes, I would guess at some kind of muscle issue bugging her and trying high dose vit e and rugging. Speaking from personal human experience, some muscle sensations can feel so odd, that it really does make you want to do all sorts of odd things movement-wise to try and relieve it.

My old pssm1 horse was horrendous in the winter until I got the hang of managing him. Without adjustment to feed, increased hacking workload and a huge amount of rugging he rapidly became explosive to ride and handle and a liability to turn out with other horses as soon as the grass stopped growing.

Ah so maybe… (was writing the post above while you were writing this!).

As you say, I would turn her away but I already have one injured pony from her antics.

(What weight of rug would you put on a native pony with a full coat?)

 

[SEL]

My gelding - will be 8 next year so first couple of years I thought it was young horse / grass ran out type of issues.

Vitamin E sends him loopy but it turns out I need to increase his protein a lot and keep him in work. Without that he gets really silly and drops topline rapidly.

 

[DabDab]

Ah so maybe… (was writing the post above while you were writing this!).

As you say, I would turn her away but I already have one injured pony from her antics.

(What weight of rug would you put on a native pony with a full coat?)

Yeah, interestingly enough Dabs (my old horse) didn't seem to struggle in the usual trigger times of autumn and spring (luckily, he didn't seem grass intolerant at all), it was only the dead of winter where he really struggled. Temp-wise the cold dry weather actually didn't seem to affect him as much as the cold damp - so much so that I had quite a lot of him x rayed more than once because I was convinced that although young he must have some kind of joint issue somewhere (he didn't as far as we could tell).

No idea on rug weight, sorry. Dabs was happy in 250-300g most of the time. I also left him unclipped. He was a wb X pre and relatively fluffy, but nowhere near native pony fluffy. When riding I actually found fleece exercise bandages all round actually made him seem most comfortable (I appreciate such things are quite controversial)

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I would start adding a decent amount of salt to her feed, a heavy vitamin E supplement, rug her up more than you think necessary and feed as much forage as she'll eat - I appreciate you have a few of these covered already. If that didn't work I'd probably get the vet's opinion on some workup ideas, it could be the cold weather is exacerbating pain somewhere?

Yes, this.
My late B Fuzzy needed all the above for her 1st 2 winters with me as I had v v similar.
Despite being a native I made sure she always had plenty of good hay at all times, rugged and only lightly clipped till I upped the rug levels.
I was able to drop the salt levels in summer except for Nov till March.

I also kept her the other side of the fence much of the time till I got her balanced, to save her smaller chums from being used as basketballs....

 

[maya2008]

Hmm so everyone’s in together on the pssm/muscle issue.

I have a 200g under rug I could add. I really do think it’s mostly something missing in the grass though, because this winter has been so much better until it stopped growing completely - cold snaps of freezing temps no issue until then. Have ordered vit E and we’ll see how it goes. Fingers crossed we can get a happy pony back without having to wait until March!

 

[ihatework]

Alternatively she might be one who is better in a regular hormonal cycle

 

[SEL]

Hmm so everyone’s in together on the pssm/muscle issue.

I think there's a lot around with muscle issues. Only 1 of mine has a formal diagnosis (rugged unclipped in 200g or more during winter - type 1 pssm), but my native pony got very sluggish one winter so I got her blood tested. Was expecting a virus but got elevated muscle enzymes. She does need vitamin E but only a rug if it rains. She also prefers to be stabled overnight - we've compromised with a bedded out shelter.

Then my gelding who needs an absolute tonne of protein to stop being an idiot. I cut back this year because my grass was growing so he decided not to grow a winter coat and dropped topline rapidly. The protein is back, he's getting fluffy and has re-engaged brain. There's definitely something quirky but he's in full work so I just live with it.

Hopefully a few tweaks and yours will be back to sane.

 

[Herewegoagain]

I’m sure I’ve read that the grass has more sugar in it when it stops growing. It can’t put its energy into growing so the energy becomes sugar.

That could be affecting her? I’m not sure what the solution to that would be though!

 

[planete]

I have added tri aminos to the year round vitamin E this winter for my hairy pony and it has made a big difference to his attitude to life and work.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

I think there's a lot around with muscle issues. Only 1 of mine has a formal diagnosis (rugged unclipped in 200g or more during winter - type 1 pssm), but my native pony got very sluggish one winter so I got her blood tested. Was expecting a virus but got elevated muscle enzymes. She does need vitamin E but only a rug if it rains. She also prefers to be stabled overnight - we've compromised with a bedded out shelter.

Then my gelding who needs an absolute tonne of protein to stop being an idiot. I cut back this year because my grass was growing so he decided not to grow a winter coat and dropped topline rapidly. The protein is back, he's getting fluffy and has re-engaged brain. There's definitely something quirky but he's in full work so I just live with it.

Hopefully a few tweaks and yours will be back to sane.

Sorry slightly duffle but what do you feed to achieve the high levels of protein that you need?

 

[maya2008]

I guess when my daughter said, ‘I love her because she feels just like R’ (deceased pssm pony who was her first pony by pony’s choice as she was winding down in life), I should have been more suspicious!

Funnily enough, both ponies:
- would jump the moon if you asked, with very little direction needed from the rider;
- bold, uncaring about fillers, go first, hack alone easily, take charge and care for a wafty rider without issue;
- sporty build, hate dressage but love jumping;
- kind, everyone’s friend in the field but won’t be bullied either.

Last one needed protein (whey/pea) plus rugs plus vit E plus lots of fast work to keep her happy. She was affected year round though.

 

[SEL]

Sorry slightly duffle but what do you feed to achieve the high levels of protein that you need?

I haven't got this right yet because he was on Allen & page muscle & focus last year but wasted loads because he's not a fan of too much soaked feed.

Sainfoin chaff (with some soaked hay cobs to dampen it), forage plus topline builder, Baileys performance balancer and hilight conditioning cubes. Oats depending on work.I'm dithering over ordering in micronized peas / beans because they were in the Allen & Page mix but it'll be an expensive mistake if they send him loopy.

I've also just started adding a scoop of lysine powder to all their feeds because the mares both have a hay tummy which isn't like them. I suspect the 2025 hay might be a bit quirky as we were well into drought conditions when it was cut.

You can buy essential amino acids or tri amino - but i got the bucket thrown at me in horror when they were added!

 

[maya2008]

Well she has harder muscles than her friends today so I think this is the right direction. Found a salt lick in the garage so have put that out.

And I rode her. It was like riding a rollercoaster blindfolded. I never knew when I was suddenly going to shoot forwards at speed and she spooked at absolutely everything!

Vit E arrived - in feed. 200g rug on. Fingers crossed….

 

[IrishMilo]

Why salt? I didn’t think of that one!

It froze earlier in December without changing her behaviour so I don’t think it’s cold itself that triggers her - that was one of our theories last year though and that’s why we didn’t clip this year. She is currently sporting the warmest, fluffiest coat known to man with cosy ears proving it works.

On the one hand I think possibly muscle pain - triggered by lack of something. It doesn’t present like obvious pssm because she’s fine the rest of the year. Yet my pssm pony did run off randomly if she was symptomatic so I have been thinking it could be something similar. On the other - ponies in pain don’t usually spend their ‘off’ time playing exuberantly and annoying everyone in sight so…

Salt’s really important for normal muscle and nerve function so is something I now feed to everything all year round. Any type is fine and about 2 tbs per day!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Yes check for pain, get teeth checked, and saddle, back, etc. No harm in doing that. Also check management including pasture, and feed (you might need to go right back to basics here). Also look at field companions as this can be influential.

But.... but, it might just be a seasonal thing. My old lad - who was as quirky as a box of frogs and you never got the same ride out of him twice, not ever - would change his mood like a chameleon during the autumn going-into-winter period. He'd suddenly develop a mood-shift, and it was quite perceptible, from being a reasonably chilled-out guy, to being a total monster, a real ijut. I always knew when it had happened! It wasn't exactly subtle. Then, come the Spring, he would change himself back into chilled mode again. It was really very weird, but reassuring in that it was predictable.

Sorry, probably not much help.