winter turnout in livery

[FRESHMAN]

Actually I am getting out of this one now. It appears several people are just putting up for an argument. My whole point is everyone & every horse is different, we all have different needs & views? It is a shame that folks can not agree to be different without the challenge that I am better than you attitude! This whole debate comes across as I do it better than you cos I am kinder/ know more/ will be more popular if I take this stance. For instance, I ask is anyone concerned about frozen rutted fields. Fair Q. This is turned into more worried about shod horses on tarmac! FGS at least the tarmac is level & smooth so how is that a comparison. This is the real world not the ideal world. God forbid that one of these horses should have a job to do without being classed as a cruel owner. Btw I do not keep any as pets. That should give you all a new axe to grind.

 

[Copperpot]

I know horses that rarely get turned out and they seem happy and content. One of mine gets 4 hours a day in winter and is happy. The other now lives out and is much happier than when he was stabled. I think all horses are different and you do what suits your horse firstly and also fits in with your lifestyle secondly.

 

[Luci07]

Crikey, there are some very sanctimonious posters on here aren't there! It's my way or nothing! one size does not fit all and whether as a result if conditioning or habit, there are horses who do prefer to come in. YO has managed her grazing so everything can and all go out daily. How long does depend on the different horses. The youngsters are happy to stay out all day and are left. Some, like my old mare want to come in earlier. There is grass In her field but she prefers to come in. On a personal note I have really really tried to have my mare live out but she will not so have given up. A previous WB x was happier and better living out. Each to their own!

 

[googol]

What does everyone think of this... My horse has NO winter to, but gets turned into a hardcore area about the size of 3 large stables with a haynet. His friends go out beside him In a space the same size, each divided by electric fencing. He spends about 7 hrs per day there, is ridden/exercised most nights and gets out in the sand paddock most nights for a roll. About twice a week he goes in the sand paddock for a play and groom with his friend. Who would be happy with that? He seems happy and content but its taken me a while to get my head around it! None of the yards in my area offer suitable winter to

 

[Goldenstar]

It is such a shame that we have no happy medium. Does the alternative to turnout have to be putting your horse in what is basically a locked cage for hours on end. In my ideal world I would have an open barn in the field with bedding, haylage and water then the horses would be free to chose their own lifestyles, it would be interesting to observe.

But most people don't keep their horses in an ideal world they manage their horses in the best way they can given the situation they are in.
No one group has the monopoly on being the best horse carers just because someone keeps their horses in the field all the time does not give them the moral high ground over competition type riders there are many thing people do that I consider bonkers bad practise including not training a horse that box rest may be part of its life and in fact it a skill may save my horses life .
And I accept that most people have to work for a living and really is key in the choices they have to make for their horse care ,but I dont and that this time of year the boys are hunting or going to the beach and the Forrest for fun doing a few clinics and when add in being clipped and all of that in the short days they often only get two hours out if it's seriously pouring or very icy they might not get turn out at all this does not in IMO make me a less good owner that someone who puts their horse in the field at eight am and brings it in a five it just makes me different.

 

[Mossi]

The views I have given are just my personal views and preferences for my horse not judgements on anyone else. I will always want enough turnout for my horse, I will never put competition status before his wellbeing and I don't want to jar his legs with shoes on concrete. If anyone else wants to they will, but I don't.

 

[L&M]

Both my horses and the liveries get turned out everyday unless extreme weather conditions (they have only stayed in 1 day so far this winter). In the winter they get between 4hrs and 8hrs, which is judged on each horses temperament, grass available and ground conditions. In the summer I allow 24/7 turnout.

For my own horses, a yard with no winter turn out would not be acceptable. This would be the first question I would ask when viewing a yard.

However having my own land, and maintaining it myself, I can appreciate when YO's get 'precious' over the grazing. I had to ask a livery to leave as her horses were serial field trashers - I am not talking about a few poached areas and skid marks, but galloping around constantly for hours each day. Their paddocks took a lot money and time to recover, with these costs far exceeding any livery earned.

Equally if a yard has limited grazing, it is only common sense to have less turnout in the winter, to allow better quality grazing for the summer mnths. Yards do have to make a profit, and around here the average diy pays £25 per week. My liveries get an acre each for this , (but I do have another couple available for emergencies), and think for that price, plus decent stabling and a school, is an acceptable amount of turnout.

Maybe if liveries want better turnout and facilities, they need to accept they will have to pay a premium for this?

 

[Goldenstar]

The views I have given are just my personal views and preferences for my horse not judgements on anyone else. I will always want enough turnout for my horse, I will never put competition status before his wellbeing and I don't want to jar his legs with shoes on concrete. If anyone else wants to they will, but I don't.

Don't understand the concrete comment at all .
The only concrete mine walk on Is the yard around their doors I would never leave a horse in a stable standing on a concrete floor they have very soft rubber mats and shavings beds and as for shoes I have three horses none of them have shoes ATM and they do a full work load so no concussion from shoes for my boys.
What's your thing with competition status what a nasty thing to call it that's exactly what I mean about the moral high ground , I am assuming from your comments about concrete your horse has shoes on I won't judge you on that because I am a unjudgmental person but I move heaven and earth to try not to inflict them on my horses.

 

[ponypilotmum]

Each horse is different. One of mine was a devoted 24/7 turnout-er. He'd kick at the door to be out.

This year we've moved him and he has his field, but in the very bad weather has his stable door open so he can come and go as he chooses.

In the bad weather he'll stand in all day quite happily, out of choice. He's not in work (ridden at weekends only) and has access to hay in the stable and field. If it starts raining and I've left him out he's practically screaming to get in.

He's not rugged, is fed according to work load and size and weather, and is one very happy animal.

 

[kc285]

I used to be at a yard where winter t/o was restricted to 8 - 5 Oct - May and tbh my horse stood by the gate all day and the fields were overgrazed, knee deep in mud with no grass. I've now found a yard that has 24/7 all year t/o (and im only 45 min from central london). There are 9 of them in a 15 acre field with good drainage, some of the horses are still wearing muzzles as we have so much grass (and these fields are never rested and often have sheep in). It is wet by the gate but not boggy and they are very rarely waiting there. Both my horses come in for a couple hours a day for some extra hay and then back out again. The older one is quite clear when he wants to come in and when he doesnt want to go back out so I let him stay in a bit longer.
My ideal would be like someone else's, big field and a barn with hay and bedding to give them best of both.
Also to touch on other comments - my 5yr old TB who lives out 24/7 except for a couple of hay hours is in full time work 5 or 6 days a week - that includes 3 lessons/schooling sessions a week, flat work and jumping, weekly comp or xc schooling (weather/ground permitting) 1 or 2 good hacks of at least 2 hours.

In my experience with all the horses I have had at various yards they would only rather be in (exception being days of really disgusting weather) when the field is not of a good enough quality.

 

[Ginge Crosby]

Our winter turnout situation is that the horses go out in the winter field every other day, they can be left out as late as the liveries want but generally they're all in by 6pm. On their day that they're not out in the field they go in pairs or threes in the bark corral we built last year, with haylage for about 4 hours a day (or until they get bored). This situation lasts for about 8 weeks over winter, less if the weather is kind to us and the heavy clay ground holds up.

I'm always upfront with potential new liveries, and tell them that if they're looking for unlimited turnout 24/7 365 dpy then this is not the yard for them. There are other yards in the area offering that kind of turnout, in knee deep mud all year round.

All of my current liveries are happy with the turnout situation. Most of them actually keep in out of their own choice on days when the weather is horrific - they'd rather their horse is warm and dry in his stable with haynets than out in the field or in the corral.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm poacher turned gamekeeper: have had to be a "punter" in the past but now am a YO offering DIY livery.

Its quite common IME for livery yards to offer little or no turnout from say November through to end of February. At one yard where my horse was on livery a few years ago, he was lucky to get maybe one half day per week turnout.

Another place where my boy was on loan last autumn, the YO told everyone that there would be NO repeat no winter turnout, full stop, from November through to the end of February. It was a case of liking it or lumping it.

As a YO I offer year-round turnout; normal practice is during the winter months for the horses to be turned out daytime only and come in at night - I do this with mine and livery does the same.

Personally I consider that it is up to prospective liveries to establish from the YO what the yard policy is in regard to winter turnout and whether this changes if there is a wet winter like we're having at the moment. It is good for YO's (and liveries) to have this stated in the contract from the word go so everyone knows where they stand. My livery contract (from memory) reads something like "turnout is offered year-round; during the winter months however this may have to be unavoidably restricted at YO's discretion due to pertaining weather conditions. Normal yard practice during the winter months is for horses to be stabled at night from November through to (end) February"

 

[SusieT]

you may have a luxurious yard freshman but you're typical of people who try to convince others that horses like being inside all the time in order to work around for e.g. the fact you have splashed out on a luxurious yard rather than good turnout and that your horses are inside for your convenience. Something that is not necessarily a problem but be honest about it rather than trying to castigate people who do it otherwise and 'prove' that you are doing it purely for the horse(what's that-one size doesn't fit all?) which is how you come across.

livery yards don't offer year round turnout because they are business' and want to make money. unless horse owners demand it they will continue to have inadequate grazing for their horses and mud filled fields and therefore restrict turnout.

 

[Clodagh]

I am totally opposed to no turnout as a blanket rule but my 2 year old who has never been in overnight in his life is on box rest for a month and is coping fine. He does have a 'patio' about twice the size of his stable to come out onto and a friend next door to fight with when he feels like it. I have mine at home and have acres of lovely turnout and a big field shelter so no need for stabling generally.

 

[Hoof_Prints]

I'm lucky, I have 24/7 all year round turnout, I would want dawn til dusk turnout though on a yard without 24/7 turnout. I would not even consider going a yard without winter turnout! My horses would be suicidal

 

[Mossi]

Don't understand the concrete comment at all .
The only concrete mine walk on Is the yard around their doors I would never leave a horse in a stable standing on a concrete floor they have very soft rubber mats and shavings beds and as for shoes I have three horses none of them have shoes ATM and they do a full work load so no concussion from shoes for my boys.
What's your thing with competition status what a nasty thing to call it that's exactly what I mean about the moral high ground , I am assuming from your comments about concrete your horse has shoes on I won't judge you on that because I am a unjudgmental person but I move heaven and earth to try not to inflict them on my horses.

My horse is barefoot, I just mean't I would be more concerned about my horse jarring his legs on the tarmac being ridden on the roads with shoes on, than I would be about him walking on frozen ground in the field. Didn't mean to offend anyone who competes with their horse, but I have heard so many people over the years say things like 'mine are show horses so they don't go out because I don't want them to get scars' or 'I work him every day to keep him fit to compete and I don't want him to get injured or use up his energy in the field so he doesn't go out' without realising that all horses do need time to be just a horse and interact with other horses in the fields, which obviously yours do get.

 

[Kamakazegirl]

My YO is fairly relaxed about winter turnout. From end of Oct to end of April/start of may (depending on weather) they have to be in at night. But there's no time they have to be in by. Most horses are in by 6 and out anytime from 6am onwards. Keepong them in due to weather is at our own discretion. Like today most liveries kept in due to the ice on the yard and the way to the fields.
My boy is fine with being in as long as he has company, but I wouldn't want him in all winter. He needs his horse time!

 

[showpony]

Minimum of 6 hrs a day in winter. I fairness is weather is brutal or ground exceptionally ice I wouldn't want my Mare to be turned out at risk of injury however in this situation which has yet to happen I would ensure she would get turnout in the indoor.

 

[Ginge Crosby]

livery yards don't offer year round turnout because they are business' and want to make money. unless horse owners demand it they will continue to have inadequate grazing for their horses and mud filled fields and therefore restrict turnout.

true - because the amount of money it costs to repair damaged fields adds to the costs outweighed by livery fees. I was a livery once, and I thought my YO was rolling in it. The reality is that the yard doesn't make a profit, it does enough to keep running and that's it.

FWIW i have mud free fields for 95% of the year, BECAUSE i restrict turnout. and should any horse owner demand 24/7 turnout from me, I, with the full backing of the YO, would very politely tell them where they can take their business. (to the knee-deep year-round muddy fields of the livery yard down the road).

I reiterate; my liveries know what their winter options are before they sign a contract or pay any fees. The fact that i have 9/12 stables full shows that the winter arrangement can't be all that bad.

 

[Lissa]

I couldn't manage with no turnout or very limited turnout in winter again. Moved to 24/7 turnout in june and was the best decision I could of made. Pony wasn't coping at old yard being in every night all year and turnout limited/no turnout if weather bad even in summer. The two yards I was on before that one both had turnout all winter as well and could be 24/7 if wanted.

Got to the point where he was a pain to turnout even if they got out everyday, This yard suited my other pony fine he didn't care where he was aslong as he had food. Hate to think what new one would be like if we were still there.

He does now come in on a night as started standing at the gate even though they have 15 acres between 8 well 10 now as two new ones turned up yesterday. All the others find enough to eat but he wouldn't be stood there if he wasn't hungry as never did in summer and will eat his hay where as in summer he'd just wanted his hard feed.

 

[Annagain]

Mine have 24 hr turnout in the summer and day time turnout(6.30am -6.30pm) in winter (usually end of November -April). They go out whatever the weather - snow and ice included, as do the rest of the yard, although they usually come in earlier in snow as we're not allowed to put hay in the field due to them fighting over it. They can stay in if we want them to but they're always ready to get out in the mornings.

I wouldn't contemplate anywhere that didn't allow at least daytime turnout in all weathers. Yes all horses are different and have different needs, and for this reason I want to be somewhere that allows me to choose how they live rather than being dictated to. All of mine have been happy to be in overnight (although I think they'd all be just as happy out 24/7) but if one wasn't I know I could probably discuss it with my yard owner to find a solution.

 

[Mossi]

I seriously just do not get this winter T/O debate with regards to one size fits all. Does no one here have the type of horse that they actually work every day? & I say work, not ride every day. I have said it before & I will say it again. Any of my horses will happily stay in the stable from approx Oct till Spring. Even then, they do not want to stay out for more than a few hrs at a time. Do HHO horses not get mud rash etc? & before anyone suggests otherwise mine are all happy & contented, no vices, & do a job well. Maybe it's horses for courses.

I think this thread answers your questions Freshman in that most of the people posting here do not have horses who work very very hard every day and they actually seem to prefer all year turnout in fields so they can interact with others and actually be a horse, whether one of those new breeds you mentioned in one of your posts (I presume you mean sport horse types?), or not, and no not all horses get mud rash. Of course you can manage your horses however you like and noone can tell you otherwise, its up to you, but to be honest I do rather think you are in a minority but that's your choice.

 

[HashRouge]

My experience of local livery yards is very bad. Much of the ground in the local area is clay with only a few inches of top soil, so it drains very badly and becomes waterlogged easily. Most yard owners also reserve their smaller fields for winter, and pile too many horses into them to try and "save" the rest of their land. I've just moved off a yard where you could have your horse out every day IF you were happy to have them knee deep in mud, with no grass...and that was only the start of November . I've now moved them to a "private yard", where the owner keeps her own horses plus my two as the only liveries. Mine have a large field for just the two of them, and there is little to no mud, and I can have them out as much as I want, day or night. In all honesty, my only option to get this sort of turnout was to steer clear of "proper" livery yards. Very few in my area have good winter turnout, and the ones that do have waiting lists a mile long. I'm not happy with severely restricted turnout in winter (I have been on a yard where the YO would close the fields for weeks at a time ) and I'm not happy on turning out everyday into fields which are mud all the way through, not just at the gate.

 

[Mossi]

My experience of local livery yards is very bad. Much of the ground in the local area is clay with only a few inches of top soil, so it drains very badly and becomes waterlogged easily. Most yard owners also reserve their smaller fields for winter, and pile too many horses into them to try and "save" the rest of their land. I've just moved off a yard where you could have your horse out every day IF you were happy to have them knee deep in mud, with no grass...and that was only the start of November . I've now moved them to a "private yard", where the owner keeps her own horses plus my two as the only liveries. Mine have a large field for just the two of them, and there is little to no mud, and I can have them out as much as I want, day or night. In all honesty, my only option to get this sort of turnout was to steer clear of "proper" livery yards. Very few in my area have good winter turnout, and the ones that do have waiting lists a mile long. I'm not happy with severely restricted turnout in winter (I have been on a yard where the YO would close the fields for weeks at a time ) and I'm not happy on turning out everyday into fields which are mud all the way through, not just at the gate.

In my personal experience I have found in the manchester area that you sometimes get the scenario where yards have adequate land that could be ustilised and rotated for turnout but it is easier for them to force horses to stay in over the winter or restrict the turnout to preserve the land rather than by good management allowing winter turnout, even if only for a few hours a day. Very often these are farms that have diversified for some extra cash, and they only let the horses use the fields they deem to be useless for cutting rather than considering the requirements for a properly run livery yard and the needs of the horse and tend to operate on old fashioned horse keeping models. Then they get too big by taking on extra horses and it gets worse. I have seen it unfold before my eyes since the 1970s. How many yards do we know that only allow straw bedding etc. Another thing I've noticed is that if they have their own horses they often get the best fields and turnout all year round, separately from any livery horses.

 

[Jools1234]

Hey HH i have my own very luxurious yard thanks. & like it just the way it is. Some people just can not see further than the end of there nose. & that is what is so annoying.
Throughout I have said & my point is. One Size Does Not Fit All.............

but your size fits all your horses! how convienient

 

[Goldenstar]

but your size fits all your horses! how convienient

Well it is isn't it,
Freshman can mould her or his horses to happy and content on his or her yard that's great that's what I do here I mould them to join the team and fit with me , I am leader I lead they learn to follow its natural for them.
That includes showing the ones who arrive not likeing the stable that it's a good place really I have lots of tricks to do this but the best one i like to use their aversion to flys in summer to show them how nice the stable is .
I have failures the did not do turn out mare was one but she was a beauiful horse and the risk of her harming herself was just to high particularily when she learned that sticking her leg through the gates was a sure fire way of getting in she was happy loved working had her bit turn out after work and a play in school or a bit more turn later in the day I don't think it compromised her welfare in any way.
But all this is really off the point the point is if you work your horse hard and have time to spend with it during the day if there's stuff going on on the yard and the atmosphere is good horses can be happy with very little turnout.
But if you work nine to five just have time to give them a quick forty minutes in the evening you will struggle on a yard with restricted turnout.
Good turnout is at a premium. Many yards just don't offer it ,in fact just don't have it many have poor management systems and many ,well having my own place I can't see how they make money on what they charge so that's why not much expensive grass management is done.
If you don't like your yard move elsewhere.

 

[FRESHMAN]

To Suzie T & Jingle Jools. You 2 really do not know your arse from your elbow. You actually believe that what you say should be the law. Get a friggin grip. I have more than enough acres to turn my horses out. What is it you do not understand about They Are Not Happy Outside! Like I said many posts ago, it would save me a fortune if the old retired Gade A horses would live in a field but the buggers jump out & come back to the stables. Btw the post & rail is bloody high enough at 5 ft. I am actually peed off with the comment that isn't it convenient that all mine want to be stabled. No it actually is not. Stop trying the approach of you know best cos from where I am standing you know bugger all. Like all walks of life. One size will never fit all. Try live & let live. It works for most of us.

 

[FRESHMAN]

Actually just read Goldenstars post again. & yes I think this is a good point. Work them, tap into them, create enough questions & answers & they are fullfilled in a busy yard that fills their needs. On my yard it starts at 7am & finishes at 6.30pm with a few liveries around till 8.30pm the horses are probably glad to see the back of everyone.

 

[FRESHMAN]

but your size fits all your horses! how convienient

What a wonderful quote. Live & let live as long as no one is hurt. So your problem is what exactly?????

 

[brighthair]

I have to agree with Freshman on the Lancashire part. All year turnout is like hens teeth up here