Wits end, medical or behaviour??

L

Leanne1980

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 May 2013
Messages
138
Visit site
I purchased a 6 year old mare in April. However since the start she has been aggressive. She constantly tries biting when in the stable, tries kicking out with back legs when doing saddle and grooming. Her ears are usually pinned back and she has a general aloof demonour and doesn't want touching.

Under saddle she is very Inconsistent in about 3 months we have had about a week of good work. She is argumentative, avades contact, Twisting and bucks in canter on left rein and won't go forward. More recently she has started planting her feet and refusing to walk forward for no obvious reason. Doesnt matter what I try I cannot persuade her to move. I ended up getting of and leading. She doesn't respond to whipping, circling etc.

My mare is very dominant and is top in the field. So have put it down to behaviour and her testing me however it has got to the point where we are not moving forward at all. The other thing I have noticed is that she doesn't appear to ever be in season. That or she hides it well. With her always being in such a grump it's hard to notice the difference. She doesn't play to the gelding and is not a flirt. One of the other mares actually squirts at her! My gelding who is very much for the ladies has no interest in her.

Has anyone any experience of anything like this? Should I be getting a vet to look at her or a trainer?? Don't want to give up on her just don't know what to do. Sorry for the long post.
 
A vet should be the first person to call in, it sounds pain related but with so many symptoms it could be hard to pinpoint anything without fairly extensive checks.
Was she vetted when you purchased her? was she sweet natured in the stable when you tried her?
It sounds as if she is trying her hardest to tell you she hurts but you are not listening so her behaviour is getting worse most "behavioural issues" are pain related, I think any decent trainer would want her thoroughly checked before working her, it may be something minor and easily fixed and the sooner you start looking for the underlying reason the sooner treatment can start.
 
I didn't have her vetted as in the past I've had horses vetted and then ended up within a few weeks with massive vets bills. She had been out of work when I got her and just been hacked for a week or so. She didn't have a stable as such but was fine when saddled up. I've had her back checked three times and no issues. Her teeth have been checked and the saddle. She's had a new saddle fitted. I have had two different instructors and a behaviorist and they all say it's dominance and to ride her forward and through it. My gut doesn't agree but my other horses has had significant health issues for the last 6 years so could be paranoid. I'm ringing vet Monday but with the symptons being so wide don't know where to start.

It is worth noting at that at no point as the mare tried to get me off when ridden or gone to attack me. Seems to be more threatening, obviously I'm conscious about pushing her if she's in pain. Bit people keep saying I'm not firm enough. I'm wondering if it could be her hormones?
 
I would want to know why she had been out of work, there is every possibility she had been turned away due to the problems she is now showing, it is all very well saying ride through it but it seems as if she is getting worse, my own horse was showing some of the same behaviour 2 years ago, vet said ride him through but my gut instinct knew it was not the right thing to do, I was proved correct as he had injured his sacroiliac, it has now been treated and he is becoming his normal self but it has taken longer than it should have as I was riding him when he hurt and he lost his trust not surprisingly.

With a mare I would probably start with a general once over then be thinking of hormones as a good starting point, if you look through the links below the mare was not as reactive as yours but has now been diagnosed after a long time having had many things ruled out and behaviour high on the list at times, most horses are willing and generally happy to be handled unless you know they have been abused and are reacting out of fear then I think it is nearly always due to pain, dominance is is something that behaviourists often seem to suggest as it is easily explained and they can try and prove they are able to dominate the horse, most horses are compliant and come round with good handling.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?701641-Napping-pain-or-behaviour

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?703294-We-have-a-diagnosis-(
 
I've had the vet booked twice before and ended up cancelling as she has suddenly started working OK. It becomes very short lived though. This time I will not be talked out of it. I dont intention to mention to anyone that I'm getting the vet as they end up saying I'm paranoid. But my gut says shes in pain. I just want to know what she's trying to tell me. Would a body scan show any issues regardless of the area? With the symptons being so wide I don't want the vets focusing on one area for it not to be that issue. Im not going to ride her again till vet comes as I need some answers.
 
Sorry forgot to add apparently she was out of work because the women who had her broke her as a 3.5 year old. Had no facilities and lived on steep ground so.couldn't work any of her horses through winter. They used to be turned away in winter and bought back with hacking through spring and summer. She has done two summers under saddle when I bought her heading to start the third. As with anything I can only go on what I'm told, unfortunately people are not always honest. She is a conni x tb. Turned 6 this July.
 
I would want her checking for ulcers and ovarian issues. It sounds pain related to me and i would stop working her til she has been checked over.
 
Ulcers and overian issues are my initial thoughts. She sometimes stops and looks round as if she's looking at my feet. I read something that it suggests that could be related. I will not be working here. I want what's best for her and am annoyed with myself that I didn't listen to my gut first off. I've been riding 10 years but the same horse so my experience is somewhat limited
limited.
 
A body scan will show a lot but you really need to start with hormonal and gut related issues first as they will not show on it and could cause the behaviour you are seeing, it will not be quick to get to the bottom of things as it needs to be done a stage at a time otherwise you will not get a clear answer, unless the first thing treated or looked into is the cause and she improves immediately.
 
I appreciate that it will take time and will ensure it gets investigated properly. Ive started her on Oestress to see if that helps but it's early days.
 
Leanne1980 said:
I've had the vet booked twice before and ended up cancelling as she has suddenly started working OK. It becomes very short lived though. This time I will not be talked out of it. I dont intention to mention to anyone that I'm getting the vet as they end up saying I'm paranoid. But my gut says shes in pain. I just want to know what she's trying to tell me. Would a body scan show any issues regardless of the area? With the symptons being so wide I don't want the vets focusing on one area for it not to be that issue. Im not going to ride her again till vet comes as I need some answers.
Click to expand...

I think I know what you are going through. Our mare is dominant in the field and everyone was telling us her issues were behavioural, it was her age, she was trying it on, she was mareish, my daughter was too soft ... Everyone thought I was neurotic (to be fair, I probably am!) and we also cancelled the vet as she seemed to get better.

Because her symptoms were fairly vague to start, we kept a detailed diary to see if there were any obvious links to her behaviour and hormones, or feed, or workload, or even weather.

When the vet came I fully expected it to be a bit of a waste of time, but he immediately agreed he felt she was in pain. After a lameness work up and physical checks, his thoughts were back pain and she went to clinic for X-rays (which showed nothing). While we were there, we decided to rule out ulcers and ovarian issues. We returned a few weeks later for a bone scan and this is when they were able to diagnose the problem.

The vets did want her worked throughout, as long as it wasn't dangerous, as it makes it easier for them to diagnose. But this doesn't have to be ridden, they suggested keep lunging in between our vet visits. Our horse got very nappy when ridden and eventually refused to go forward at all.

I would ignore anyone around you who tries to tell you otherwise, and get a vet booked. At least you will have peace of mind, and can rule out pain issues before assuming it's behavioural.

Best of luck, I hope you get some answers that are easy to resolve.
 
My boy has had ulcers and he has issues with moving forward with a rider on his back. At the moment we are at the point of trying to work out if his problem is remembered pain or something else still bothering him.
 
I did not read it all, but if you are stuck, send her to a pro yard for schooling for three weeks, , and go every day to see what they do.
A full vet workup would seem to be the first port of call.
 
I had a horse like this , I hate to say this but he was sound and happy when unworked but got nastier and difficult to ride when worked for a period of time. He had navicular and coffin joint disease amongst other problems. He had had joint ill as a foal which I did not know when I purchased him and the problems did not surface until we started to break him at four and a half. However, if I had viewed him straight from a rest in the field even as a seven year old not only would he have appeared sound he would have passed the vet. Lameness never showed unless you jumped a decent height on him, I had five lameness work ups that showed no lameness and then insisted on x rays and it was a horror story. Various instructors said it was me, I am very experienced but was at a loss so asked for help. Most just got on and belted him, the only two that could feel there was a problem even though he was absolutely level said that there was a bubbling of tension under the surface ( he didn't do that with me as he always tried his socks off) and a shorter stride than he looked like he should have. Look for the small signs, is she landing heel toe, flat or toe first. Either of the last two would indicate a lameness problem in the front feet even if she looks sound. Temper causes stress and stress can cause ulcers but they are not usually the cause, pain is usually the cause. I spent a long time treating various symptoms until we found the cause which was a very arthritic horse that had never know anything else. very sad for him and expensive for me. I lost my best friend but had no option but to allow him some peace at the age of eight. There are several trainers I would not let anywhere near my horses now, bullying a horse in pain is not the answer.
 
I had a mare and I always blamed myself for her behaviour. At home she became "normal" but at competition she was raged. I can remember being bucked off twice in the 10 minute box at Blair.....

She was always sound, would jump anything, and I decided it was just that when she was fit she was beyond me. I sold her, declared all her issues, and at first the new owners did better, and they were happy.

The year after she was worse again, and it turned out she had ovarian cancer. She had a HUGE ovary, and would have been in pain and hormonal to boot.
 
Leanne1980 said:
I didn't have her vetted as in the past I've had horses vetted and then ended up within a few weeks with massive vets bills. She had been out of work when I got her and just been hacked for a week or so. She didn't have a stable as such but was fine when saddled up. I've had her back checked three times and no issues. Her teeth have been checked and the saddle. She's had a new saddle fitted. I have had two different instructors and a behaviorist and they all say it's dominance and to ride her forward and through it. My gut doesn't agree but my other horses has had significant health issues for the last 6 years so could be paranoid. I'm ringing vet Monday but with the symptons being so wide don't know where to start.

It is worth noting at that at no point as the mare tried to get me off when ridden or gone to attack me. Seems to be more threatening, obviously I'm conscious about pushing her if she's in pain. Bit people keep saying I'm not firm enough. I'm wondering if it could be her hormones?
Click to expand...

The one thing I have learnt is to always trust my gut. Reading your first post the thing that came to mind was a hormone thing. If she ovarian cysts then they will be painful, cause hormone imbalances and could easily fluctuate relating to her seasons and hormone levels which would explain the fluctuating symtpoms.

When Roo did her tendon she wasn't lame, she just wouldn't go forward and didn't sound right to trot up, although she looked sound. After 6 weeks and vets telling me there was no point in scanning, I insisted she was scanned to rule it out. The vet was saying, as he was scanning, that we wouldn't find anything - he stopped half way through his sentance as a 50% lesion showed up on her DDFT - you know the horse, your experienced and your gut is telling you somethign is wrong. Listen to it, keep a diary or symptoms and workload and have her looked at.

Good luck :-)
 
Leanne1980 said:
Ulcers and overian issues are my initial thoughts. She sometimes stops and looks round as if she's looking at my feet. I read something that it suggests that could be related. I will not be working here. I want what's best for her and am annoyed with myself that I didn't listen to my gut first off. I've been riding 10 years but the same horse so my experience is somewhat limited
limited.
Click to expand...

On youtube there is a video EQUINE ULCER DIAGNOSIS BY MARK DEPAOLO worth a look ,one of the horses looks to where the riders foot would be .
 
I agree with the other posters, to me this is a pain issue. There is a difference between bolshy dominant behaviour and aggression. Horses being flight animals do not waste energy being aggressive unless there is an issue, you can confirm that with any good behaviourist or vet.
My horse passed a 5 stage vetting with flying colours only to show himself immediately as dangerously aggressive. He had chronic sacro illiac dysfunction. It took £4k on a newmarket bone scan to diagnose that, so I shouldn't assume your horse has no kissing spine or suchlike because a back person couldn't pick it up. I sincerely hope he is fixable for you, but so many pain issues are well hidden.
Incidentally I used an animal communicator, an iridologist and a shiatsu therapist for a total combined cost of £100 before his Newmarket visit and all 3 stated he had a R/h upper hind injury/problem. The shiatsu therapist burst into tears as she felt his pain. It took nearly 2 weeks at Sue Dyson's lameness clinic to diagnose chronic SI dysfunction on R/h side. So whether you believe in it or not you could use an AC in the first instance that would cost under £50.
 
Last edited:
Just to add that my connie x tb was diagnosed with a kissing spine as a 6 yr old. We had 2yrs of deteriorating behaviour when ridden from the age of 4yr to 6yrs old, he was bi-laterally lame so hid it well. He was fine when just started ridden work, but as we upped the work he started to completely flip out, I had an instructor tell me he was sold to me because he was malicious and decided to ride him through it and my poor horse went through hell. He was a darling on the ground and the nicest personality you could ever wish for, my vet finally after 2yrs of my persisting and a bone scan managed to diagnose KS ands I sent him to Svend Kold at Willersley for surgery when he was 61/2. He had genetic KS and was predisposed to getting it!

He is now 16, still the sweetest personality ever and is the yard favourite on every yard he has ever been stabled on because he has manners to die for and the sweetest nature ever. Pain is a terrible thing and for a horse that needs to flee, pain makes them feel very vunerable and inadequate they behave utterly out of character. I am pleased you are listening to your horse, trust your gut, I have never regretted operating on my boy and I have now been lucky enough to have him as part of my life for nearly 12yrs. I thought I would have to PTS at 6 because he was so dangerous in every respect and since then he has been a complete joy and privilege to own. Good luck and I hope you have the same end result to your journey as I have - a chance to enjoy your horse. Let us know how you get on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top