Wits end with horse.*long*

charlie76

charlie76

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We bought an extremely well bred mare almost six months ago. She is six years old and was sold as not for a novice which having competed to 1* level BE and advanced BD and worked with horses for over twenty years I wouldn't class us as novices, I also have my own livery yard and I'm a BHS senior coach so have worked with lots of horses over the years with various issues.
Anyway, we tried the mare and she was very nice ,was forward thinking, basically well schooled , easy in the stable and jumped like a stag. The only thing she did do was be a little sensitive in the mouth after a fence but nothing to terrible.

She was vetted by a well known vets and all was fine and she was delivered five days later.

From day two she became a night mare.

In the stable/ handling/ field

She is fine in the stable as long as no horse leaves the yard. If a horse goes out of the gate she goes nuts. She has destroyed three walls of the stable. At the last attempt she kicked straight through the back wall.

We have tried having her live out, she smashed through two post and rail fences.

If you catch her and the other horse in the field walks off and you have ho!d of her she goes nuts, bucking and rearing till you have to let go.

She lost the plot three weeks ago bringing her her, shot off, knocking the groom over and kicking her in the process.

I have tried putting her in a box where she can't see the Kate. She kicked three panels out of the stable wall within ten minutes.

She cannot stand still when tied up.

Feed and hay-
She is on dry hay and hi fi

Ridden out hacking-
She is a pain to get on in the yard, will not stand still, if you force the issue it gets worse. Same when you first mount. If you insist she stands she starts bunny hopping. She is fine once out unless she has to stand and wait , then the bunny hopping starts again.

Ridden in the school-
In the six months we have owned her we have never had a decent schooling session with her. She is not too bad , but if you put the slightest pressure in her she jumps up and down, threatens to rear and bucks. She point blank refuses to even trot a twenty metre circle without a fuss. You can try everything, difsuing the situation , kicking her forward, transitions, you name it we have tried it and she will not stop, even at the end of a gold hours session ( an hour trying to get her to trot a circle!)

Lunging-
As soon as you try and lunge her she goes nuts, bucking ,kicking out at you and totally ignoring your aids.

We have tried every bit, noseband, saddles, saddlepad combination going and she is not better. We have also tried a variety of riders. I have just ordered a bit less bridle to try.

What are have tried other wise-
Vet. Vet has been and checked back, sacroiliac, teeth, poll, scanned her ovaries. She has been put on a course of regumate.
Her teeth were done
She has had a sports massage and a Chiropractor ( who is also a vet)

We have tried calmers and chaste berry.

Vet doesn't think ulcers but will scope if nothing else works

We have tried different field friends, group, pairs, mares and geldings.

We have tried schooling her alone and in company

Lunging before work.

We are now putting her on a high level of bute for a week to see if this makes any difference although vet says that although pain may explain ridden issues it doesn't explain stable and handling issues.

When he came to assess her I took her to the school to lunge bery, stopped at the gate to take her in and she stood on the spot bucking and rearing whilst I attempted to open the gate. He was shocked at her behavior.

She has had flexion tests.

At First we thought it was a change of home but six months on and she is no better.

If the bute doesn't work then we are at a loss.

Can anyone help or suggest anything we haven't tried ( we will scope for ulcers if the bute doesn't work and vet said if it is ulcers she will prob be worse after a high dose)

It is getting to the point where pts may be the only option .
 
What was she like in her previous home ?
Have her difficulties escalated since she has been with you.
If she was OKish in her previous home then maybe she can't cope in a busier yard.
She sounds dangerous and I would consider pts if she has a long previous history of this sort of behaviour.
 
Wow, it really does sound like you've explored everything. You don't mention anything about previous home - have you spoken to them about her behaviour at all? I take it there were no alarm bells when you went to try her. How much did you see when you went to try her?
 
Have you tried recreating her previous environment? Assume you've cut all feed off her? Tried a companion pony?
 
Hi there,

It sounds completely behavioural to me. Honestly, look up Warwick Schiller and subscribe to his video subscription. He has a groundwork routine which will change everything. I've learnt more things from those videos than i have in all my years experience. I have used his groundwork techniques on my own horses and others and the results i've seen are astonishing.

I've taken my sister's horse from a very nervy horse who would rear, wouldn't hack, wouldn't load, wouldn't be caught, couldn't be clipped to a confident chilled chap without working on any of the specific issues themselves. His groundwork basically works on the underlying issues (worry, belligerence etc) so the bigger issues sort themselves out.

I got into Warwick Schiller after my sweet yearling turned into a 16.2hh NIGHTMARE, seemingly overnight. His groundwork fixed all that within a few sessions. Now he is one of the most well behaved horses i know.

I've since used his techniques on a bolting cob and a nervy mare. I haven't heard of any individuals not to benefit from his stuff.

Check him out on youtube first - he has loads of mini vid clips on there. His subscription is about £15 a month but you can cancel at any time. He also has a fb group where all followers post progress and Warwick himself is on there to help give advice.

Good luck :)
 
Sorry you are having these problems. I would not scope her. To save her the stress of starving overnight and being scoped, and you even more cost, I would get the fifteen day free trial of omeprazole from abler.com and then probably put her down if that made no change in her behaviour. I might try excluding ryegrass and alfalfa and all refined sugar, but it seems too extreme for that to help. You've tried everything else and with the timing, it sounds very much like she was sedated when you tried her and had her vetted :(
 
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Having had two with it one more than the other, separation anxiety.
The TB we had was the worst, gelding that had been a bit institutionalised, was relatively normal until the end of the summer. He had been stabled most of his life but after the summer being out would not stable and the stable wall had the holes to prove it. Took him to a show and spent three hours being towed about while he climbed literally up the wall for the mare that went with him.
The old pony would wipe you out in an effort to get out and would literally walk all over you.
I know I am probably teaching you to suck eggs but I would buddy her up with anything calm, and let them do everything together until you work out a management system and rule out everything else. We have two ponies that have spent an awful lot of time baby sitting the fruit loops
 
Check out "Calm, Healthy Horses" website as my mare can't tolerate clover. I have to supplement her diet with pro balance from Progressive Earth and 2 table spoons of salt. She was also diagnosed with gastric and hind gut ulcers last Nov and succeed supplement and Chios Mastica gum have helped to transform her into a calm pony who no longer has separation anxiety! Using a Richard Maxwell pressure halter also helped with handling issues when her behaviour was at it's worst!
 
If she were mine and the bute trial didn't have any effect, I would seriously consider finding her a quiet field, away from the main yard and turn her out there for a few months with a couple of friends, up to 3 others, preferably 3 that didn't get ridden or brought in and out all the time, as she is clearly upset by change, and just see how she copes with that?

I only say this because I tried to have my mare on a bit yard once and she never settled, she was the devil to ride! not half as bad as this mare but she would bolt off, jog on the spot, wind herself up so much that she started biting her own tongue. she hated it there!! I moved her back to where I had her previously, she was out in a small herd on a farm, with not much going on around her and she chilled out and became a lovely little mare! I then moved again to a new town and rented a yard on my own! took one of her friends with me, on loan and then had a friend move in, I started riding her again and she was the most amazing horse ever, she started to really enjoy life again!
 
Could it be her ovaries causing problems? I know of a mare whos behaviour was very like this, turned out it was the ovary follicle didnt 'pop' when ripe and thetefore bring her out of season, but just got bigger and bigger and the mare got more and more hormonal. A course of Regumate brought the end of that season, and after 2 more seasons and courses she went back to normal.
oops just read you tried regumate and had ovaries scanned. sorry!
 
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I think I'd speak to previous owners and try to work out (other than change of home) what has changed. What was her diet, routine etc before? Has that changed drastically?

If you took bloods at vetting, I'd also get those tested, just in case.

The other thing to consider is that she's a mare and might have been so bonded to her previous owner that she's distraught without her or simply hasn't clicked with you (no offence!). A friend put her mare out on loan as she had two and wanted to concentrate on her gelding. The mare stayed at the same yard and nothing else changed but even though (or perhaps because) she saw my friend every day, she couldn't settle with two loaners at all and played them up no end. She was always a bit funny if friend went on holiday but tolerated me doing her and riding her, just. My friend ended up having to have her back for two years, then when she got pregnant she decided she had to try again. She clicked with the third person straight away and after a few months she bought her and moved her elsewhere with no problems. 9 years on the mare's happily retired and living in her new owner's back garden (paddock) but she pines terribly if her owner goes away and won't let anyone else near her so she has to be left in the field, thrown some hay and kept an eye on from a distance!
 
ycbm said:
Sorry you are having these problems. I would not scope her. To save her the stress of starving overnight and being scoped, and you even more cost, I would get the fifteen day free trial of omeprazole from abler.com and then probably put her down if that made no change in her behaviour. I might try excluding ryegrass and alfalfa and all refined sugar, but it seems too extreme for that to help. You've tried everything else and with the timing, it sounds very much like she was sedated when you tried her and had her vetted :(
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I think abler have stopped doing the free trial. However, I too would just buy the abprazole from them and see if she's better after a couple of weeks. It does sound ulcer related to me, that or kissing spines or both. I have lost count of how many vets that have said they don't think it is ulcers, only to find them. Has her back been xrayed, OP? Has she had a proper lameness work up with nerve blocks? I wouldn't be putting her to sleep until these things have been done. IME bute trials very rarely work when a horse is in severe pain and when the behaviour is at this level. Any person with severe chronic pain will tell you that anti inflammatories may take the edge off but are not sufficient to stop the pain.
 
Two possibilities spring to mind 1. Kissing Spine, but this can only be detected by x.ray. 2. Ulcers - even if she didn't have them when you bought her she has undergone a very stressful 6 months (not your fault) and I would be very surprised if she didn't have them. Apparently at least 60% of leisure and up to 90% of competition and race horses can have ulcers. Scoping is stressful in itself and cannot detect hind gut ulcers. Have a look at the Equine Science website, they seem to have had success with their products and a lot cheaper than Omerprazole.

The suggestion of turning away for six months sounds an excellent idea, particularly if she has ulcers, it will give them time to heal.

Hope you can find an answer.
 
My tuppence is to query what is meant by "back checked" by vet. My own vet "checked" my horse's back and said it was fine. Physio said the same. Bone scan at NEH revealed 10 impinging dorsal processes and acute spondoloyis.
 
springtime1331 said:
My tuppence is to query what is meant by "back checked" by vet. My own vet "checked" my horse's back and said it was fine. Physio said the same. Bone scan at NEH revealed 10 impinging dorsal processes and acute spondoloyis.
Click to expand...

Agree with this. It was the same with my gelding. No one could feel any soreness in his back at all yet he was found to have 10 impinging spines. The kind of pain he felt was sharp nerve pain rather than soreness.
 
For those suggesting importing from abler it is illegal to do so so I don't expect hho would appreciate it on the board :p am sure vet can supply an omeprazole trial if you don't want to starve her for scoping op. If it is physical given how extreme her behaviour is I wonder if it is cured just how much better she will be anyway. I would do a few more checks but call it a day before someone gets seriously hurt.
 
My first step would be to get the blood sample checked - she sounds like one who was doped when you tried her. Although how much later was the vetting? Did she behave well for them?

With her 'behaviour' being SO extreme and so out of touch with when you tried her - and such a quick onset of 'behaviour' - and nearly 6 months of her being 'bad' I'd be VERY surprised if she hadn't been a cowbag with the previous owners!
 
I would test the bloods if it's not too late .
I would before I gave up X-ray the back it's not too expensive and I know from experience you can't always tell what's going on from feeling the back .
It's also worth considering a gastrogard trial however behaving like that might well give you ulcers !
I would also give an altertive approach mentained by an other poster a whirl.
I would bet the farm she was doing this in her previous home so why was she so good when you tried her I would be very suspicious.
I would not let staff handle her and I would not hesitate to PTS if I could not find an answer.
I might consider contacting homes further back on her passport looking for your answer.
 
I would probably scope. It does sound kind of ulcer-y. But bear in mind that the ulcers might be a symptom of the stressy behaviour, rather than the other way around. I would also think about turning away for a while, if you have the facilities, before making the decision to pts.

But yeah I've known a couple like that and they never really changed. The thing is, when they were good they were VERY good, and so the owners sort of tolerated them and worked around the bad behaviour. But you are right, she does sound dangerous.

Were the previous owners invested in her future? Because if they'd had her for a while, and coped, it might be worth getting in touch with them.
 
Test the blood sample that you may have still from the vetting. That will probably come back with some kind of sedative in it.

After that throw her in a field with some preferably retired horses for at least 6 months. Then bring her back in every day just to brush but not work for a few weeks. Just build it up very slowly, she clearly freaks at the slightest difference. Poor mare though whoever trained her clearly freaked her out.

If that doesnt work, maybe a professional trainer at horsemanship?
 
Recently I have found Goldenstar does all my typing for me! I agree entirely with what she says above (except I have no farm to bet). In addition, I would also consider sending the horse away. Not because you are incapable, more to rule out whether its something in your pasture/hay thats affecting her although I doubt that given how extreme her behaviour is. Have you had any contact with the previous owners?
 
I'm sure I still have a few syringes of insurance paid Gastroguard somewhere from Torres if you want to give it a go H, for some horses it works super quickly so a couple of days might indicate that it's the source of your problem. It's about 30 quid a day so an expensive test! Blimey...we should have turned her and Summer out together!!!!!!!!
 
So many different replies! Thanks so much. I will try and answer all.
I'll start with the back check. The vet has checked her back and thinks all is well, he also said although back pain may explain the ridden behaviour it doesn't explain how she is in the box, stable or lunge.

I have tried turning her out in a big field away from the others, she tried to come through the fence so I don't think I can risk it.

Yes she was blood tested when we vetted her.

I have contacted the previous owners several times. The first time was about a week after purchase. We gave the horse the benefit of the doubt with settling in. I told them about her behaviour ( on text so have written evidence ) and they said she had never been like it so they didn't know how to help. They did say they would come and ride her if we wanted them to which makes me think they hadn't sedated her as surely they would know she would be bad?

I said we would give her a few more days, they told me to smack her if she was naughty again but to be honest, you would have to be a brave person to smack her, I think he would have floored you!
For about 48 hrs she was a bit better, not great but a little improvement but since then its hot progressivly worse. I contacted them again and told them and they did seem genuinely surprised and sorry. They told me to lunge her in side reins which I did. I also told them there is no way we would game her out to a show as we lived in fear of her trashing the lorry! They said they had taken her out and she had been fine and they did have pics of her out and about.

I know this means nothing as she could have been a pain but they said she stayed overnight at the show ground.

She was in the stable when we saw her and had another horse in opposite her despite being the middle of the day so maybe they did this on purpose?

I then contacted them again recently following her knocking over the groom and trashing the stable ( and still being a pain to ride! ) and they did say she kicked the walls of the stable when she first arrived but stopped. They didn't tell me this originalko. Kicking the wall is an understatement. She destroys the wall when she kicks off. We have removed her shoes.

She isn't aggressive or nasty. She just looses all sense.

So we have been giving her a treat ball when anyone leave the yard whch helps butb this depends on us being there when some one rides which isn't always possible.

We thought she had got better with this but she kicked the walls again today when a horse came in from the field.

TONIGHT... We tried her in a hackamore, for the first hour ( this is how long it takes!) She was still a pain in the arse. The reaction wasn't as dramatic but certainly not easy. She did eventually improve in trot and did a couple of laps or normal ish trot on both reins so we stopped. Up until that point she was throwing her head, jumping into canter rather than trotting, bunny hopping and being a general pain. I think she settled for a couple of circles as she was knackered but that's no way to be and its actually impossible to do daily and we bought her to compete so unrealistic to do.

I have a Dr cook bitless to try tomorrow as its kinder than the hackamore but to be honest , having seen her tonight in thee hackamore not really any different until she was pooped , I don't think it's a bit/ contact issue.
 
KS can be the cause of bad behaviour in the stable/ on the lunge, a friend of mine has a horse that was a nightmare to handle, was unbacked due to being far too difficult to get beyond groundwork, our local vet suspected KS so the horse went off to a big hospital for further investigations, while there he was considered dangerous, they found a few issues but ruled out the minor KS as the cause of his behaviour sending him home with instructions to "be careful handling him" . He was no better so was taken in locally and a specialist came out to operate on the KS, he returned home the same day a totally different horse, obviously no longer in pain, he is now backed and going well, people that knew him prior to the op cannot believe it is the same horse, vets are not always correct and in this case the so called experts were definitely wrong, luckily the local vet goes on instinct not just science.
 
Nothing much to add but just a thought .. friend's horse with KS did become aggressive and very grumpy on the ground and in the stable, not just when ridden.

Since treatment she is a different horse.

I hope you find the answer OP. Sounds a complete nightmare.
 
I addition to what be positive says above, SI pain can also be a culprit of extreme behaviour on the ground/in stable/under saddle.

As you had bloods taken at Vetting, it may be worth running them. If the bloods are positive, then that's obvious, however if they are negative then you are possibly looking at a very recent field/stable injury to the SI/Pelvis/Poll region or pure bad luck that something like KS may have reached the stage to cause this reaction. I honestly think that when a horse displays such an extreme behaviour, it is likely a combination of both physical and psychological pain and how they transfer to each other can be complicated and predispose other aliments/cause a deterioration in behaviour. The only thing you can do nothing about is a brain tumour but I don't feel that is the cause from what you have described.

OP, I really, really feel for you. Wishing you the best of luck no matter your decision.
 
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