Wits end with horse.*long*

Whilst it does sound like KS is very probably the problem (do you ride her in a different saddle from her previous owner?), I really would look at her feed, every last morsel of it, including whatever you put in the treat ball. I had a mare whose behaviour ridden, in the stable and on the ground was every bit as extreme as your mare's and the root of the problem was her feed.

HiFi contains alfalfa and molasses, both of which can cause extreme reactions in horses, we have one who cannot eat even a tiny amount of alfalfa without blowing a gasket. The website doesn't say it is but if the straw is coated in soya oil, as some of theirs is, that is another potential problem
 
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If it turns out not to be KS or ulcers it may be worth a further look into teeth? I remember seeing a post on facebook showing a tooth with an awful root (sorry cant really remember but it looked normal from the top) and caused all end of behavoural issues but because of where it was the teeth from inside the mouth would have seemed fine...
 
Ruling out all pain first of course.... What breed is she, and is she likely still got some growing in her? I had a 6 year old grow 3 inches and transform from an angel to a right monster. Sorry no solution but just a possibility she might grow out of this stage. She seems to have done a good bit for a younger horse. Maybe the winter off with plenty of turn out and getting used to her routine. Then re-start from the basics in spring.
 
Well someone broke her in and got riding, so what has changed since? I agree that it sounds a nightmare.
There is a sedative that goes out of the system within 24 hours, so the bloods might not show that. It just takes the edge off them, but you can ride them (my vet gave it to my horse after box rest).

Honestly, I don't know what to suggest because you seem to have covered most things, it is irrational behaviour though, not just the riding but the behaviour in the stable and in the field. No suggestions, just wish you luck.
 
Pain can make you pretty grumpy so I'm not sure I agree with vet that KS wouldn't explain

chronic pain also makes you pretty tense, stressy and prone to things like ulcers

and so the cycle continues.

I wonder if something underlying plus being overly stressed at moving has got her into a cycle like that?
 
ester said:
Pain can make you pretty grumpy so I'm not sure I agree with vet that KS wouldn't explain
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On my limited experience with kissing spines, I would agree with the vet.

We backed a 4 year old filly who undoubtedly had kissing spines at the time. She was easy enough to back although never seemed 100% happy.
LUCY-1.jpg
After 6 months of NO bad behaviour she suddenly started putting in a filthy buck - investigations suggested there WAS a problem with her back and x-rays followed. She had kissing spines - and arthritis in 2 vertebra which suggested it had been there for some time. She is one of the nicest natured horses I have (and I have a lot!) and never showed any symptoms except when ridden.
 
I would imgine that the misbehaviour unridden could be due to anticipation of pain.
Even if she had been drugged for vetting, she must have been impossible to school and prepare for sale.
It is possible she fell in the lorry en route to you and injured herself, these things do happen.
I do know a mare who we could describe as unbreakable: as far as I can see she has no pain, she just cannot cope with much, even handling in the stableyard she is tense. Fortunately, her owner is a bit soft, so she now lives in a field and does herself well.
Such cases do occur, this is not helping you, but I sympathise.
 
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Fun Times said:
Recently I have found Goldenstar does all my typing for me! I agree entirely with what she says above (except I have no farm to bet). In addition, I would also consider sending the horse away. Not because you are incapable, more to rule out whether its something in your pasture/hay thats affecting her although I doubt that given how extreme her behaviour is. Have you had any contact with the previous owners?
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That is a good idea, though it needs to be a pro yard and you need to be upfront with them, but I would go for winter turnout, but if it is your premises that is the problem, you still have the same problem unless you can sell her to the pro!
Can you get former owners to take her back for a month as according to them she was fine there.
If you are willing to pay and the horse was OK there, they might take her, if she was not OK they definitely won't.
 
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JanetGeorge said:
On my limited experience with kissing spines, I would agree with the vet.

We backed a 4 year old filly who undoubtedly had kissing spines at the time. She was easy enough to back although never seemed 100% happy.
LUCY-1.jpg
After 6 months of NO bad behaviour she suddenly started putting in a filthy buck - investigations suggested there WAS a problem with her back and x-rays followed. She had kissing spines - and arthritis in 2 vertebra which suggested it had been there for some time. She is one of the nicest natured horses I have (and I have a lot!) and never showed any symptoms except when ridden.
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The difference may be that your mare was homebred, well handled and confident, once she exhibited issues you did right by her and got it thoroughly checked out, as did my friend who couldn't even back hers, the mare of the Op's may have been showing problems but treated totally differently, ridden through, possibly roughly or worse and now further down the line has throw in everything in order to get someone to listen, your mare may well have got far worse if you had not listened to her at the first sign of discomfort.
 
The vet has checked her back and thinks all is well, he also said although back pain may explain the ridden behaviour it doesn't explain how she is in the box, stable or lunge.


Not sure if you remember the TB boy I had but he had back checked, x rays etc and all came back fine BUT was KS and his behaviour ridden and handling got to the point we had to either have 2 people leading him in (a very short distance) or me with the fence in between me and him on a long lead rein! He displayed separation anxiety signs but would just explode at random moments in hand.

The only time he chilled out towards the end was when he was eating :(

He was PTS in the end as was getting way too dangerous and was never going to settle to being a pain free companion living out or in!

It does sound like she has behavioural issues more than medical to be honest although the little palamino we used to have took a year on turnout to chill in her head, literally out in a field didn't come in much for a whole year - but dealing with a pony compared to your giant is a whole different ball game.

part of me was tempted to think allergy etc but I do think it is hormonal/behavioural or KS/Ulcers.....

Hoping you find some answers and looks like the other route I was going to suggest of calmers has been exhausted......
 
OP you have many people here telling you that it could be KS. My horse was checked by the head equine vet and one of his team on several occasions and they both insisted they would be very surprised if he had kissing spines. I had to request that they X-ray his back for my own peace of mind and they found the worse case of KS they had ever seen. Both my chiro and physio also found no soreness or tightness in his back. I would get the X-rays done, at least to rule it out. I would also get a full lameness work up and if she is insured, have a scintigraphy done. Then at least if you have her PTS, you will know you have done everything you can.
 
To add to what others are saying about KS, but from a human perspective. A few years ago I suffered a severely herniated (think exploded) disc in my spine that jammed into my spinal cord. Unlike a horse, I was able to tell everyone that my back hurt like hell. However, even despite that, every chiro, GP and physio that saw me to start with insisted that I didn't have a disc issue. It was only when they MRI'd me that they realised the true extent of the problem and rushed me for surgery. I know horses are anatomically different and KS is not the same as a human disc herniation, but my point is that even though I was telling specialists quitr clearly that my back was agony, they still told me it wasnt a disc.

When my horse was suffering with pain last winter, he became horrid to deal with off the ground. He was completely unlike his usual self, so much so it would have been quite easy to fall out of love with him. Pain can do strange and horrible things to horses. And humans for that matter!
 
for the peace of mind I would first get the bloods from the vetting tested. then see if there is anyone around you with a thermal image camera as its relatively cheap to see if there is something showing that the vet could investigate (yes I know its not a definite that there is a problem if it shows heat but at this point in this case it may be worth it) and I would run her to the vets for spine xrays to rule out ks and also to see if there is anything around her poll. then if nothing is found its sounding behavioral or she is very stressed with the move
 
I remember Wagtails post about her horse's behaviour which was so like my own mare's erratic and explosive behaviour and she had KS. The ONLY way to diagnose KS is Xray. My vet was sceptical about KS when the mare was taken to him but fortunately she exploded whilst being lunged so was xrayed on the spot.
 
Lots of useful advice here OP, but can I just say that if a horse was showing extreme behavioural signs I would not believe a vets 'professional opinion' until I had the x rays/scan/whatever to prove otherwise. I would certainly be starting with x rays and a full lameness work up.

A friends horse had been broken, schooled to a certain level and then never seemed to progress or build any more muscle. She didn't show extreme behaviour when ridden, but struggled to canter one way, would sometimes rush through the contact, other times back off it and had the odd iffy tantrum. On the ground she could be fairly sweet some days, and then absolutely awful on others and a real nasty piece of work - she has hammered the stable on a few occasions and would think nothing of trying to boot you away too.

Horse is now being rehabbed after vet said 'that horse will never have KS', and guess what for? KS and even SI! I firmly believe that her attitude on the ground was both linked to pain and anxiety or potential pain.

The only other time I have seen VERY extreme behaviour and no explanation through investigations has been due some sort of brain tumour.

I hope you get to the bottom of it OP, I know how scary and frustrating not being able to help your horse can be, particularly when you do not know its history.
 
We know its def not sacroiliac as we have had that scanned and her ovaries so all fine there.
We are going to give her the bute trial on vets advice. If she does improve them we will get her back x rayed as the next course of action.
If she gets worse on a high level of bute then we can scope her for ulcers as the ulcers should be made worse by the bute
If all of this proves negative then we can only assume she has mental issues.

Am update on today. She was in her box and was quiet for her, she suddenly started squealing , like they do when they meet a horse for the first time, she did this several times despite there being no horse around. It turns out the rug on the rail was touching her hind quaters and this is what she was squealing at. The rug is always there and often touches her quaters and she doesn't behave like that.
 
ester said:
iirc bute doesn't work for/improve KS just for info.
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Why do you say that?
Bute isn't going to magically make a KS horse pain free, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility for it to relieve some pain symptoms.

OP, have you tested the bloods stored from vetting? What do old owners say?
 
The lady who I bought my horse from bought her because she was known to be so quiet and sensible.

She sold her to me 6 months later as she was too much for her - very nervous, jogging, overly sensitive, kicking out when tacked. She got better with me as I sorted out a few things (saddle, feet, bit etc) but was always still very on edge and was still very challenging and sensitive to ride.

A couple of years after I got her she suddenly went much worse and then finally came down with colic. She was rushed to Leahurst where she was operated on. They said that there was evidence that her large intestine had been popping in and out of a pocket in the lining of the diaphragm for a while. It is likely that this had been causing her pain and was the likely cause of her behaviour.

Since then she has gradually gotten a lot better. We still have some issues which I am convinced are due to remembered pain but she is much much more settled now.
 
charlie76 said:
If all of this proves negative then we can only assume she has mental issues.

Am update on today. She was in her box and was quiet for her, she suddenly started squealing , like they do when they meet a horse for the first time, she did this several times despite there being no horse around. It turns out the rug on the rail was touching her hind quaters and this is what she was squealing at. The rug is always there and often touches her quaters and she doesn't behave like that.
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This makes me think even more that the problem may well be caused by her diet. It reminds me very much of the mare I used to own who was very, very sensitive to some feeds- even a *tiny* amount of her trigger foods affected her behaviour extremely badly.
 
I thought it had previously been mentioned several times on here when bute trials have been discussed, I am perhaps remembering wrong. At least that a negative effect of a bute trial doesn't mean the horse doesn't have KS.
 
If it was my horse, I think the first thing I'd do would be to book a thermal imaging person, too see if anything showed up (on the assumption that they would have space within a week or so). In the meantime cut out all hard feed except for hay, and go from there.

Another route I'd also go down would be animal commuicator. Others will poo poo this, but I've used one that have told me exactly where the horse was in pain. (Which tied up exactly with the areas physio found issues with).

Once got results from imaging I'd then be ringing the vet and telling them exactly what tests I wanted doing, and make sure they were all done on the same day, as in the long run it saves money, and you should know exactly what areas to target. For example your horse may have ulcers, caused by pain of KS. You just treat the ulcers, they are likely to come back, as the cause of the problem has not been fixed
 
ester said:
I thought it had previously been mentioned several times on here when bute trials have been discussed, I am perhaps remembering wrong. At least that a negative effect of a bute trial doesn't mean the horse doesn't have KS.
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No bute trial can ever discount pain it can only confirm pain , lots of conditions don't respond and the response to pain relief varies between one horse and another .
 
You need to hurry up if your getting the bloods done. A girl I know went to get the bloods tested and they only keep them for 6 months at her vets anyway.
 
I'd be inclined to think something is causing the horse pain and my experience is that pain can cause all kinds of behavioral problems.

You have to decide if you want to look into this further or cut your losses and PTS now.

If you want to keep going for a diagnosis I would jump straight to a scintigraphy. It is more expensive overall but you might spend all that money on other tests and still not have an answer. An easier thing to try is cutting out all feed other than hay.
 
So sorry you are going through this and I can't imagine what the mare must be going through to cause her to behave like this.

I agree with so many about KS

Bearing in mind in the field she can keep her head low, when doing anything else including in the stable she can't.
Have you got a large barn where she can walk around with head low and feed hay off the floor And hopefully big enough for a friend.

Trouble is even in the field, anything that causes her to raise her head could cause the pain

I would get back xrays, vets don't always get it right, a well known vet told me I needed to go for lessons with previous owner as nothing wrong with horse, he had vetted horse which made him protective over anything being wrong with him. Went he went on holiday 10 days later I got the other vet to scope and guess what horse did have grade 2 ulcers
 
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