Wobbler advice please - C3 narrowed, C4 four bone chips, C3/4 step

cptrayes

cptrayes

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My horse has wobblers and I have to make a decision this week what to do with him. He has been level 2/3 ataxic for two weeks, with no improvement. Onset of critical symptoms was sudden, but with 20/20 hindsight other indications have been there for 5 years and attributed to spavins (he has huge lumps on his hocks) and/or temperament.

On bute, no other meds. Physio daily for one week, not sure what yet.

I'd be grateful for any advice, especially from a vet or anyone who has had similar xrays. My own inclination is that he should be put to sleep because he is not strong enough to even be turned out on my hilllside, never mind with other horses. He is not improving, and to me, the xrays were shocking.

There is a narrowing of the canal the spinal cord goes through in C3. The vet who took them said that one ratio should be about half of another, when it was clear that it was less than one third. There was also a clear step between C3 and C4.

In addition, the top of C4, inside the spinal cord canal, there is a cluster of four clear bone chips of a very easily visible size. From time to time his neck cracks, the last time when the physio was present as loud as a big handclap.

I have not yet discussed this with my vet and will do so on Monday, but the last time we spoke he was making "give it 6 months and see" noises. That does not, at the moment, seem fair to the horse, so I am seeking other opinions so that I can make up my own mind what to do.

Any opinions would be welcome.
 
My TB mare's 2nd foal developed wobblers as a four year old and his owner decided that the only option was to PTS because he couldn't, in her words 'be a horse anymore.' I know that he found getting up after rolling, very hard and it was seeing him struggle and struggle to get to his feet one day that made her mind up.

I'm so very sorry that you are in this situation. :(
 
That is my concern Faracat. He's a big, boisterous, athletic, active horse confined to a box because he's too weak to risk him being knocked over by my other big boisterous horses. It isn't "him", it's a shell of him :( I can't put him through it much longer if there is no real chance of a recovery.
 
Spinal problems don't go away in weeks, it takes months for them to recover if they are going to recover so a week will have told you nothing. It is a degenerative disease.
It's up to you if you're prepared to give him a chance or not and wait it out-it's a patience thing, if he's not in pain he won't be suffering greatly. Ask the vet how many he's seen recover.
 
SusieT said:
Spinal problems don't go away in weeks, it takes months for them to recover if they are going to recover so a week will have told you nothing. It is a degenerative disease.
It's up to you if you're prepared to give him a chance or not and wait it out-it's a patience thing, if he's not in pain he won't be suffering greatly. Ask the vet how many he's seen recover.
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Terrbily simplistic answer SusieT and about as useful as a chocolate teapot, thankyou. Do you actually have any knowledge of the likely progression of a horse with his set of conditions so that you can provide any useful input? Ask the vet? He's never seen a ten year old wobbler like this, never mind seen one recover. It's not a common condition, you know. I've been around horses over 30 years and this is the first one I have ever met. Very few people on here answered my original post, and of them, not one with narrowed C3 recovered, never mind the fragmentation of the other vertebra.

It is NOT just a patience thing. The bone chips could be causing pain, and if they are not now then they will be arthritic some time soon and will. The horse has a huge personality and is usually very active and he is fading away mentally and physically being kept in a prison away from other horses. If he is never to be ridden again, my one in four hillsides are no place to retire a wobbler. He hates hacking, so it is a return to proper work or nothing. He is a completely unsuitable candidate for retirement. Among other mental issues that he has, he is savage to other horses and will not make a companion horse.

It is, as you say, a degenerative disease. I have to ask myself whether it is right to allow this horse to degenerate over time. It is entirely your prerogative to believe that all that is required right now is patience. Would that it were so simple.

Please don't post on this thread again unless you actually have any knowledge of his particular set of problems.
 
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It sounds to me like you have already made up your mind but your heart is ruling your head. If he is a shell of his former self and not a horse that would do well being confined, and, he is never going to manage on a slope then it does sound like there may only be one option for him.

It is such a hard decision to make and I'm so sorry that you are in this awful position. If you were confident that he would cope with the restrictions in place to hopefully gain some sort of recovery, is he just going to be well enough to be safe in a field? Presumably he will not be safe enough to ride again? If so is he going to be happy as a field ornament? I'm sorry I'm rambling, but I guess I'm thinking that if you aren't happy to every ride him again (previous thread?) and he won't be happy retired and pottering, then for his happiness the answer is PTS. Is it worth his misery of a long recovery period to end up miserable in a field?

Would definately be worth getting a second opinion. Its easy for us, unqualified peeps to sit in judgement. Wishing you all the best with your decision and I'm sorry I can't really offer any proper advice.
 
CP apologies if I am being a too logical about this and this comes with the caveat that I don't have any prior experience (just thinking scientifically really)

why would there be any improvement? C3 will remain narrowed and the bone chips will still be there so I suppose I cannot see why there would be much of an improvement when the spinal cord is still compromised, does it/can it adapt to this? and even if it does a return to proper work would probably seem a big ask.
 
Plenty of knowledge-just not what you want to hear. You want to pts because you don't think he will recover enough to be ridden-which is probably correct. So just pts.
A week is not long enough for recovery in this sort of condition-I've seen horses recover somewhat after 6 weeks, down a grade in ataxia. so no point in basing a decision on that-as I said above. It's whether you are prepared to give him a chance to be field sound which you're not.
Hence I said ask your vet-he has seen the horse and xrays and will know if a similar horse has recovered so best to use his advice rather than a forum. Without seeing the horse it's also impossible to say if he's in pain so ask your vet. Chips can be benign, it's impossible to say without seeing the xrays so ask your vet. See why all those answers were given?
But of course-your post makes it clear you don't trust your vet do you? You believe only you have the answers or somone who can type the things you want to hear on an internet forum. If you think your vet is wrong get a second qualified opinion. And this is what I would say to anyone in your position.
 
ester said:
CP apologies if I am being a too logical about this and this comes with the caveat that I don't have any prior experience (just thinking scientifically really)

why would there be any improvement? C3 will remain narrowed and the bone chips will still be there so I suppose I cannot see why there would be much of an improvement when the spinal cord is still compromised, does it/can it adapt to this? and even if it does a return to proper work would probably seem a big ask.
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Exactly, Ester. Why would 4 bone chips disappear?
 
Cptrayes I feel for you. Looking at SusieT's post, recovering 'somewhat' and going down a grade of ataxia in 6 weeks - is that good enough for Jazz?
 
Bubbles said:
Cptrayes I feel for you. Looking at SusieT's post, recovering 'somewhat' and going down a grade of ataxia in 6 weeks - is that good enough for Jazz?
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No Bubbles, it's not. He is a horse who has always panicked when he feels trapped, insecure, or cannot have his own way. I dread to think mentally what it is doing to him to be unable to feel his back legs properly. When I saw him last night he appeared to me to have "cut off" from the reality of his situation. He certainly wasn't the feisty, opinionated, massively affectionate giant of a personality that he was two weeks ago before this crisis happened. I will not let him (continue to?) suffer. I have to speak to my vet tomorrow, but thankfully I have now received a second opinion from a real expert, which is that Jazz's physical condition is not resolvable, will deteriorate, and should already have been ended. One more chat with the vet and then one with the hunt is where we are heading, I am afraid :(

Thankyou for your support.
 
Absolutely devastating for you both. I hope the chat with the vet goes well and doesn't cause you any further heartache. I'll be thinking of you
 
Hi CPT

I think you already know what I am going to say about this.

I believe wholeheartedly that pts is the kindest and most selfless thing you can do for your horse.
Recently you have experienced rapid onset wobblers and the chances are it will get worse, not better. You know I speak from experience here.
You will not want to find him down and unable to get up - or worse seriously injuring himself further trying.

My heart goes out to you - but I know you will do the right thing. Whatever you decide though you have my support, sympathies and massive hugs.
You are more than likely going to face what I had to last August and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

My heart goes out to you.
 
Cptrayes cannot post on here at the moment but if anyone wishes to provide further advice personally then she can be reached at
cptrayes@btinternet.com

As things stand, the hunt will be coming for her horse on Tuesday.
 
I have had a wobbler and known of another . The first one was ok until backed aged four and when his symptoms appeared we traced his history and it seems he got stuck in a concrete ditch upside down as a yearling which was thought to have caused the damage. We had him euthanised as there could be no cure.
The second was progressive from aged 6 after winning lots of dressage, before that he showed no sypmptoms, but he was kept on the side of a steep hill and his fieldmate was forever playing rearing on him etc, we think he may have fallen at some point and rolled doing the damage. His owner had him euthanised as he started to get bad tempered and as you described, a shadow of his former personality.
I would in your shoes do the same. The key for me being the change in the horse mentally, the temperament could well be because he is in constant low grade pain, and with the xray proof you have found, it doesn't sound likely he will ever have a useful life.
I am so sorry to have to write this reply, but I believe in your heart of hearts you know what the best solution is. Let him go.
 
Hi,

As per my post and PM to you before my boy had same location of lipping and spurring c3/c4. Within 3 months on the initial what looked to be poor shoeing and stiffness in his neck I had him pts 3 weeks ago.

Within 5 weeks after diagnosis he went for a grade 2-3 to a confirmed grade 3 wobbler hence the decision to PTS.

During that 5 week period following diagnosis there was further deterioration he really went very quiet and very ambivilent about everything. He lost skin sensation and I would go so far to say he did have pain in his neck, so the one thing I could do with him which he used to love he really didn't like anymore.

His bodyshape changed where he no longer distributed his weight over four feet but primarily his fronts. He didn't lose weight it was more his backend disappeared and all became front loaded. His neck muscles shape changed as well.

Picking his feet out what a worrying experience and hoping he wouldn't fall on me or anyone else. His front feet became unable to be picked up and rooted to the spot. His front leg started to twist inwards and hinds he would stand at a 90 degree angle from his body.

Seeing him stumbling and knuckling going in and out to and from the field and stable was very distressing. Even in the field he was all over the place knuckling his fetlocks, trembling knees, swaggering as he walked, I could go on. Turning him out 24/7 wasn't an option.

I went to move him away from the wall one evening and instead of moving away he fell into me and against the wall. As I moved out from between him and the wall he slumped against it. That was a reality for both me and for others that they could get hurt. Three days later his hind legs blew up with Lymphangitis and that was the final decision after the vet had been to give anti-b and bute that this was the end.

I took him back to the vets for reassessment and to PTS. The one way journey and that's where it ended.

I know I did the right thing and I don't regret having him pts. I loved my boy and I miss him every day. He was a big part of my family and my kids loved him as well.

In your situation with the narrowing (that will not go away and could get worse) and the 4 bone chips (eek what happens if they move, get stuck or ossify?) I personally couldn't see a way past that and that the condition is linked to OCD would make me worry what else is going on. Purely my personal thoughts.

You need to decide what is right for you and your horse. Only you can make that decision. I can only give you my experience. I would have loved to have let him have the summer and that was my plan but he deteriorated so fast.

I'm so sorry that you're in this position. Thinking of you. PM me if you need to chat.
 
OP, I'm so sorry that your boy is a wobbler, I followed your posts and really hoped for you that there would be a more optimistic outcome.
regarding whether to pts, you have to do what feels right for you, and jazz, after discussion with your vet.
You know your horse, his character, and your facilities and you are the person looking at him.
If you think you can keep him safe and happy while he physio etc, great, go for it.
If you think hes in pain or is suffering and can't cope with your ground, or being separated from other horses, then I think that helps you make the decision.
Whatever you decide, I'm thinking of you.
Stay safe while handling jazz.
Kx
 
i looked after a wobbler , mild at first , he was diagnosed as a 3 yr old with slight ataxia and loss of sensation in his hinds , he was a field pet till he was about 6 when he was suddenly unable to stand without helping him place his hind legs splayed , the day after that he went down and was pts... all this happened over 3 days , went from slight, to acute, to pts , if i had a horse diagnosed with this awfull diesese and its symptoms were moderate i would pts straight away
 
SusieT said:
It's whether you are prepared to give him a chance to be field sound which you're not.
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Wow, harsh.

10 years old, developed Wobblers. Prognosis = zero. It has nothing to do with giving them a chance.

What an awful thing to say, shame on you.
 
Cp - Have emailed you.

Hugs for tuesday.

You are making the right decision.
Some people on here should be ashamed of themselves.
 
SusieT said:
Plenty of knowledge-just not what you want to hear. You want to pts because you don't think he will recover enough to be ridden-which is probably correct. So just pts.
A week is not long enough for recovery in this sort of condition-I've seen horses recover somewhat after 6 weeks, down a grade in ataxia. so no point in basing a decision on that-as I said above. It's whether you are prepared to give him a chance to be field sound which you're not.
Hence I said ask your vet-he has seen the horse and xrays and will know if a similar horse has recovered so best to use his advice rather than a forum. Without seeing the horse it's also impossible to say if he's in pain so ask your vet. Chips can be benign, it's impossible to say without seeing the xrays so ask your vet. See why all those answers were given?
But of course-your post makes it clear you don't trust your vet do you? You believe only you have the answers or somone who can type the things you want to hear on an internet forum. If you think your vet is wrong get a second qualified opinion. And this is what I would say to anyone in your position.
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Disgraceful, unnecessarily personal and judgemental.

cptrayes, my heart goes out to you - FWIW, given the age and condition of the animal and that the history supports a clear deterioration, I believe you're doing the right thing.
 
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