Wobblers Advice Please

[Sophskies]

Had the vet out today to look at my 5 year old warmblood as he has developed a wierd Jerky action behind, taking his left leg out and round rather than forward. He has lost his back end slightly on 2 occasions before, however I thought he had just slipped. He cross canters a lot and drags his toes even in walk. The vet did a standard lameness check but couldn't find anything, so we are taking him in next week for a full lameness work up and neurological tests. The vet said worst case scenario was wobblers, but the more I think about it the more I think he's got it, even from when he struggles to pick his back feet up and sometimes tries to lie down when you pick the front ones up. I know it's not confirmed yet but was wondering if anyone has any experience of this - does it mean he will have to be pts if confirmed? Thanks if you've managed to get to the bottom of my lengthy post

 

[popsdosh]

I would wait for the vets to confirm!as it could be several things. If it is wobblers im afraid there is only one logical course of action as they become a dangerous liability to themselves and others.
Is he insured because you will need to keep the company in the loop.

 

[Brandy77]

Not necessarily PTS, it depends on how severe it is. It will likely mean retiring in the least.
My little mare was graded a 2 out of 4 wobbler 12 years ago. I retired her straightaway, she has had 1 foal 10 years ago and has happily lived out 24/7 since.
Feel free to PM me if you want someone to chat to x

 

[popsdosh]

I despair!!!!!

 

[Brandy77]

Sorry, popsdosh, is that, you 'despair' at me?

 

[popsdosh]

Yep !
Think it will be obvious to most!

 

[Brandy77]

why?

 

[popsdosh]

why?

What vet advised you that breeding from a mare with wobblers was a sound plan of action?

 

[Brandy77]

My referring vet at the time, the RVC who performed the neuro test, xrays, and myelogram, i also rang and spoke to a vet at the Animal health trust and another at Rossdales for views.

 

[popsdosh]

I think today they would advise you differently as there is a strong genetic predisposition to wobblers

 

[Brandy77]

Well obviously that was a strong concern of mine at the time. As well as, will my mare be okay carrying a foal to full term. Which is why i went for a 3rd and 4th opinion.

One vet said that no wobbler gene had ever actually been found, and that wobblers had been bred with wobblers and hadn't produced wobblers. They gave me a lot of advise regarding the feeding of the foal (to be), which i have paid excessive attention to detail about since.

This was 12 years ago though, and as you say, they may well advise differently now and perhaps research has found more since. I will probably spend the rest of the afternoon looking into it now rather than working!

As the OP has a 'he' i wasn't intending on going into detail about having a foal, my point was that no, wobblers doesn't always mean pts. It will depend on the individual case as well as the owners circumstances (being able to keep a horse that isn't rideable).

I can only speak from my experience of having a wobbler, and this is it.

 

[applecart14]

As the OP has a 'he' i wasn't intending on going into detail about having a foal, my point was that no, wobblers doesn't always mean pts. It will depend on the individual case as well as the owners circumstances (being able to keep a horse that isn't rideable).

I can only speak from my experience of having a wobbler, and this is it.

You are right wobblers doesn't always mean this, it depends on the vetebrae affected, C6 is a bad one.
Wobblers put simply is interference with the spinal cord and associated nerves due to malfunction of
the veterbrae or compression, either caused by excess bone or due to an injury. Some horses can be operated on depending on the extent of their problem, and a basket which is called a Bagby Basket can be inserted to help stablise the vetebrae. Other horses are not so fortunate and can not only never be ridden again, but are also to 'dangerous' to keep alive as they are so unpredictable with their co-ordination that they could fall on someone, or could fall in the field and have terrible trouble being able to rise again which is called recumbency.

I lost a ten year old 17hh warmblood with Wobblers. He developed the condition after suffering from trauma to his neck after rearing over backwards and landing on the neck in the field. The symtoms came on slowly at first, and he started rubbing his back fetlocks together, then he had a 'strange' canter gait which developed suddenly, and he went on to suffer from ataxic episodes (ataxia). There are a number of neurological tests you can do to test your horse, but the most common are as follows:

Wobblers is not thought to be hereditary, there is no proof of that, but it is more common in WB's, TB's, Shires and some breeds of American horses - very prevalent in Quarter Horses. Gelding are more effected than mares, and horses with long necks are particularly predisposed to the condition. You can get late set wobblers (caused by trauma) or early wobblers which is what yearlings/two year olds appear to display. The website link will give you more help. Dr Cruz was very helpful when I emailed him and he is a leading authority on this. In this country Liverpool Philip Leverhulme have somebody that might assist. http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...fo_wobbler.htm

Please, please, please I must impress upon you the value of having your horse taken to a large facilities where they have a very large xray machine, a vets portable x ray machine that they take to your yard with them will NOT be sufficient to penetrate the neck muscles of the horse. I was told by my vet at the time that my beautiful Rommy did not have Wobblers on the basis of the xray results. I was told instead he had EHV (Equine Herpes Virus) which also causes ataxia. Upon my eventual insistence that my horse did not have this (I am not a vet but researched hugely on the internet) they agreed for him to attend Philip Leverhulme (Liverpool Hosp) and his condition was stabilised with finadyne until he was strong enough to travel. Within two hours of arriving at Liverpool and being diagnosed he was put down as his condition was inoperable and he was very dangerous as he was so ataxic (uncordinated). His vetebrae were C3, C4 and C6 from what I can remember. The picture people have of wobblers is that horses are 'funny' and amusing because they walk drunkenly. My horse was the most placid lovely horse you could wish for and I had to have him put down, there was nothing funny in that. A month before he was put down we were jumping double clears in Discovery BSJA.

Please PM me if you require further info. I am always happy to discuss Rommy's case in more detail if you are struggling but my advise is if you believe your horse has this condition ask the vet to be referred for comprehensive xrays and DO NOT use a portable xray machine as they are very unreliable or at least were in 2004. Good luck

RIP Rommy - you are missed each and every day. x

 

[Sophskies]

Thank you all for your responses. He is going in to Bell Equine next week for a full lameness work up and neurological tests. I'm really worried bless him.

 

[Sophskies]

You are right wobblers doesn't always mean this, it depends on the vetebrae affected, C6 is a bad one.
Wobblers put simply is interference with the spinal cord and associated nerves due to malfunction of
the veterbrae or compression, either caused by excess bone or due to an injury. Some horses can be operated on depending on the extent of their problem, and a basket which is called a Bagby Basket can be inserted to help stablise the vetebrae. Other horses are not so fortunate and can not only never be ridden again, but are also to 'dangerous' to keep alive as they are so unpredictable with their co-ordination that they could fall on someone, or could fall in the field and have terrible trouble being able to rise again which is called recumbency.

I lost a ten year old 17hh warmblood with Wobblers. He developed the condition after suffering from trauma to his neck after rearing over backwards and landing on the neck in the field. The symtoms came on slowly at first, and he started rubbing his back fetlocks together, then he had a 'strange' canter gait which developed suddenly, and he went on to suffer from ataxic episodes (ataxia). There are a number of neurological tests you can do to test your horse, but the most common are as follows:

Wobblers is not thought to be hereditary, there is no proof of that, but it is more common in WB's, TB's, Shires and some breeds of American horses - very prevalent in Quarter Horses. Gelding are more effected than mares, and horses with long necks are particularly predisposed to the condition. You can get late set wobblers (caused by trauma) or early wobblers which is what yearlings/two year olds appear to display. The website link will give you more help. Dr Cruz was very helpful when I emailed him and he is a leading authority on this. In this country Liverpool Philip Leverhulme have somebody that might assist. http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...fo_wobbler.htm

Please, please, please I must impress upon you the value of having your horse taken to a large facilities where they have a very large xray machine, a vets portable x ray machine that they take to your yard with them will NOT be sufficient to penetrate the neck muscles of the horse. I was told by my vet at the time that my beautiful Rommy did not have Wobblers on the basis of the xray results. I was told instead he had EHV (Equine Herpes Virus) which also causes ataxia. Upon my eventual insistence that my horse did not have this (I am not a vet but researched hugely on the internet) they agreed for him to attend Philip Leverhulme (Liverpool Hosp) and his condition was stabilised with finadyne until he was strong enough to travel. Within two hours of arriving at Liverpool and being diagnosed he was put down as his condition was inoperable and he was very dangerous as he was so ataxic (uncordinated). His vetebrae were C3, C4 and C6 from what I can remember. The picture people have of wobblers is that horses are 'funny' and amusing because they walk drunkenly. My horse was the most placid lovely horse you could wish for and I had to have him put down, there was nothing funny in that. A month before he was put down we were jumping double clears in Discovery BSJA.

Please PM me if you require further info. I am always happy to discuss Rommy's case in more detail if you are struggling but my advise is if you believe your horse has this condition ask the vet to be referred for comprehensive xrays and DO NOT use a portable xray machine as they are very unreliable or at least were in 2004. Good luck

RIP Rommy - you are missed each and every day. x

Thank you for this can I ask what the signs were for your horse? Mine has lost his back end before but I thought he slipped. He tie drags on the lunge and struggles to pick his back feet up. He is quite clumsy, always canters disunited and has a very high natural head carriage. It's also nearly impossible to get him to move over, he's not a naughty horse it's almost like he doesn't understand what I want or just can't do it. Xx

 

[Nudibranch]

OP yours sounds exactly like my 4yo. Identical symptoms. By 2yo I had convinced myself he was a wobbler, largely through listening to too many posts on here about it. It is pretty rare. Initially the vet couldn't find anything. As a 3yo he was x rayed and blocked and found to have, most likely, DJD in his hocks. He's had one lot of injections and is currently going well and has been backed.
So don't beat yourself up, it may not be wobblers. Oh and according to my vet, who is pretty experienced, wobblers does not always mean pts. It does not always progress and there are varying degrees. But of course there are always people who will tell you otherwise.

 

[Sophskies]

OP yours sounds exactly like my 4yo. Identical symptoms. By 2yo I had convinced myself he was a wobbler, largely through listening to too many posts on here about it. It is pretty rare. Initially the vet couldn't find anything. As a 3yo he was x rayed and blocked and found to have, most likely, DJD in his hocks. He's had one lot of injections and is currently going well and has been backed.
So don't beat yourself up, it may not be wobblers. Oh and according to my vet, who is pretty experienced, wobblers does not always mean pts. It does not always progress and there are varying degrees. But of course there are always people who will tell you otherwise.

Thank you for this, I am trying to keep positive until confirmed, I do hope it's something treatable as he is honestly such a lovely chap, if it is something I can sort for him I will. I am so impatient for his appointment next week to hopefully get some answers. Did your horse swing a leg out and round when moving forwards?

 

[ycbm]

I think you may be a bit out of date Applecart. Both vet practices I use have portable equipment strong enough to x ray backs and necks. Also, I was advised that the Bagby basket is considered unethical and that it was not available in this country a few years ago and I can't find any references on Google to it being available now. A friend of mine who had it done to her dog wishes she had never put him through it.

Good luck OP, there are a lot of wobblers with ridden careers, and there is still hope that yours might be one, unless it's something less serious altogether.

 

[applecart14]

Thank you for this can I ask what the signs were for your horse? Mine has lost his back end before but I thought he slipped. He tie drags on the lunge and struggles to pick his back feet up. He is quite clumsy, always canters disunited and has a very high natural head carriage. It's also nearly impossible to get him to move over, he's not a naughty horse it's almost like he doesn't understand what I want or just can't do it. Xx

Hi Sophskies. The first signs were barely perceptible. Rommy started rubbing his hind fetlocks together when ridden and he got rubs on the inside of the fetlocks. My first thought was that his back was 'out' so had the chiropractor out to him. She thought his heels needed building up on the inside and felt his fetlocks were rubbing together due to a back issue. So the farrier came out and built up his inside heels altering the shoe in someway. But he continued with this rubbing. I used to put a sausage boot on but it didn't have much affect.

Then like your horse he started doing a very strange canter. He would throw you up out of the saddle. Its not like a disunited canter at all, completely different feeling, like it shoots you up in the air out of the saddle. If you halted him and immediately reined back (at this stage he was able to do this and of course we had no idea it was wobblers) you could go straight into canter from halt and he would be fine for a couple of laps of the school. I think this freed up his neck a bit. he was still jumping Discovery BSJA and we'd won about £80 quid together during the time I had him, but one day Dad videod him. He cantered towards the fence, lifted his front end but not his back end, he just dragged his hind legs through it. Again we questionned the video and kept replaying it, but we just assumed he was being 'lazy'. It breaks my heart now, but at the time we had no idea. Again another day we jumped a double in the second phase of the Discovery class so it was quite a big fence, and he landed on top of it and we both fell onto the floor. But then he would go weeks without a problem, other than the strange canter and the fetlock rubs.

One day I took Rommy for a hack. I had to rein back to allow my friend past to the mouting block. As I sat on him and reined him back he felt 'all over the place' and I remember commenting to my friend joking and said "Oh Rommy has been on the rum again'. We went up the track onto the lane, probably a distance of 200 yards and I had to get off as I felt he was going to fall over. I rang the vet immediately and walked him back home and the vet came out, did neuro tests, and declared him a wobbler, but then within minutes changed his mind and said he thought it was EHV.


Here is a fascinating footage on youtube of a wobblers horse in canter and you will see how it does this strange hop with its hind legs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBEUScbWXRI

See how this horse when it walks towards you on the turn crosses its front legs and also swings his out hind leg out in an arc on the circle? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvUkg4I5l38

Finally this video shows a horse grade 4. Mine was Grade 3 to 4 although he didn't look dissimilar in the end.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x5Us9bpBPQ&list=PLsGkOa_QS9NIaaVqRxEWhp16KO-BRTPpM PLEASE NOTE THIS VIDEO MAY BE DISTRESSING TO SOME VIEWERS

Watching this last video is very upsetting as it was just like my boy.
I do hope you get a good outcome and the xrays show minimal problems that can be easily fixed. The operation sounds very promising although how advanced it is in the UK is something I am not sure about. Thisis a brilliant website: http://equinewobblers.com/surgery/surgery.html

 

[applecart14]

These are photos of my previous horse Rommy who had wobblers syndrome aged 10.

 

[ycbm]

Applecart I don't think any operation is available in this country. The website you pointed to is seven years old. Less time ago than that I was told that the operation was considered unethical by British vets and no-one in this country would do it. I have googled as far a I can and I can find no recent reference to operating on wobblers. Do you have any recent information to say these operations are currently available in the UK?

 

[Nudibranch]

Sophskies yes he would occasionally swing a leg, but only for a stride or two. He does still drag his hinds somewhat as he wears the toes. Vet reckons thats laziness and being young and unbalanced; I am not convinced but in the absence of further evidence we have to proceed with what we have. Good luck with yours and keep up posted.

 

[Sophskies]

Thanks all for the advice and positive comments. I'll update the thread with findings on Tuesday x

 

[applecart14]

I do hope you get a good outcome and the xrays show minimal problems that can be easily fixed. The operation sounds very promising although how advanced it is in the UK is something I am not sure about. Thisis a brilliant website: http://equinewobblers.com/surgery/surgery.html

Applecart I don't think any operation is available in this country. The website you pointed to is seven years old. Less time ago than that I was told that the operation was considered unethical by British vets and no-one in this country would do it. I have googled as far a I can and I can find no recent reference to operating on wobblers. Do you have any recent information to say these operations are currently available in the UK?

Like I say I don't know how advanced it is in this country. I am sure at the time I was told that if my horse hadn't had so many vetebrae affected in particular C6, and wasn't as bad as he was then they may have operated but as it was he was a viable patient.

I assumed that these operations were carried out frequently in this country, by the look of the video on the link it doesn't look that difficult an operation but I am no vet! Its only fusing together vetebrae, maybe it is unethical. I have googled too and can't see anything, its all in the states.

Sorry i don't have any information, maybe there are some vets on here that could advise. I believe they do the operation routinely on dogs with wobblers.

 

[Brandy77]

The basket op was offered to me as a possibility on my mare (C6/C7 affected). A john warmsley (not sure on spelling) i believe was the vet who, at the time had carried out the op, and i believe he was based at liphook.

I was told at the time, that if the affected vertebrae were nearer to the poll then it is easier to perform the op.
For me i decided that it was such a risky procedure, due to how close to the spinal cord that they are operating, that i didn't even consider it.

Whether the op is still carried out in the uk now, i have no idea, as this was 12 years ago.

 

[Brandy77]

Have found this....(it was spelt John Walmsley)...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-211473.html

 

[ycbm]

Have found this....(it was spelt John Walmsley)...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-211473.html

Written in 2008, like applecarts reference.

In 2012 I was told the operation was considered unethical in horses and no-one in the UK would do it.

 

[Brandy77]

ycbm, i wasn't saying that it was recent, I was just referring to the vet who was performing the op 12 years ago when my mare was diagnosed.

 

[ycbm]

I understand that, but I am trying not to let people get up false hope and then be disappointed. I'd be glad to be told that I am wrong, but I can't find anything online to suggest that this operation is available in the UK in 2015.

 

[Sophskies]

Lameness work up tomorrow - I'm so nervous.

 

[popsdosh]

I understand that, but I am trying not to let people get up false hope and then be disappointed. I'd be glad to be told that I am wrong, but I can't find anything online to suggest that this operation is available in the UK in 2015.

Its not considered ethical for the horse as the outcome is so unreliable and most relapse.Just because we can do it does not mean we should.I also question the ethics of a lot of the surgery carried out on dogs thats on the telly all the time as I seriously question there quality of life. In the states there has been some work with TBs that present as foals and this involved starving them until the ataxia resolves as most wobblers are fast growing large breeds who outgrow themselves.
As for those who ride confirmed wobblers you need your heads examined seriously riding a horse that does not know where its hind limbs are you are playing russian roulette.