Wobblers syndrome - stage 1 - experiences?

[ramsaybailey]

As above really. Had some very sad news that our ex racer has been diagnosed with Wobblers stage 1 caused by arthritis in his neck. He's been medicated in his neck and will need 6 months rest but the chance of this working is only 50%. And to be honest I've only heard bad things about the outcome of wobblers, however I wasn't aware that there was 'stages' of the disease.
The symptoms were tripping and discomfort walking down hill. Does anyone have any form of success story from this sort of diagnosis?
Thanks

 

[ycbm]

When mine was diagnosed, I was told that there are a lot of dressage horses with wobblers, because the condition tends to give them a very elevated gait in order to sort out where their feet are supposed to be landing. Mine went from an occasional slight loss of balance and passing neuro tests to a much higher stage in one schooling session because his C4 vertebra cracked apart, but yours could keep going for the rest of his natural life if he isn't in pain.

I'm another, with the comments on your other thread, who can't see the point of the turning away for neck arthritis.
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[ramsaybailey]

When mine was diagnosed, I was told that there are a lot of dressage horses with wobblers, because the condition tends to give them a very elevated gait in order to sort out where their feet are supposed to be landing. Mine went from an occasional slight loss of balance and passing neuro tests to a much higher stage in one schooling session because his C4 vertebra cracked apart, but yours could keep going for the rest of his natural life if he isn't in pain.

I'm another, with the comments on your other thread, who can't see the point of the turning away for neck arthritis.
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Thanks that's really interesting.

Yeah really need to find out what the point of that is, I don't understand it either, will be interesting to hear what the vet says.

 

[milliepops]

I only know ones with sad endings.

My own one is mild enough as a low grade that she is a happy field ornament and the vets thought the disease would progress very slowly. They said I could carry on riding her but I have retired her because personally I don't see the point of training on a green horse that you know has a physical limit which is getting closer each month. For her, she is effectively on field rest which is appropriate for maintaining her quality of life because she is active within her own comfort limits. Mine hasn't had any treatment at all at this stage though and I don't intend to unless she deteriorates. She lives out and gallops around playing with the others and has a lovely time without me trying to interfere so it's a kind of short to mid term success for her... not for me though.

 

[Red-1]

My horse had strong steroids orally, and that did give us a summer of gentle retirement hacking together (previously an eventer). He then retired altogether for another 6 months after he started to trip and fall.

After that he started to not look so good when turning round in his stable, and he was PTS.

I was also told that a lot of good-moving horses are actually wobblers, as another poster has said.

He had not been good downhill for ages before diagnosed though, but we live on the flatlands so it as not really highlighted how bad it was.

 

[milliepops]

I was also told that a lot of good-moving horses are actually wobblers, as another poster has said.

Mine felt spectacular under saddle when she was connected leg to hand (in retrospect, letting me be in the driving seat of her wonky body!). I found she was a mega back mover as well as being pretty active, about as much movement as I was comfortable with as an amateur rider. Unfortunately we think there must be a pain element with her because occasionally her behaviour flipped. Happily I never see any such signs at liberty.

A friend of mine had a youngster that was a wobbler, he had naturally loose athletic looking movement but it was back to that failure to progress thing. She had him PTS as it was inevitable that he would decline.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

My old boy was a Wobbler, diagnosed as a 2yo and I had him until he was 6yo. He lead a full ridden career and it never affected him really. He was never a sturdy footed horse but didn't much trip, and his paces were nice but nothing flamboyant - he did have an incredibly long striding and loose walk though.

His only sign was being 'clumsy' with his feet when turning on a tight circle, and he would sway if you pulled his tail in walk. Unfortunately he was put down due to Navicular.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

As above really. Had some very sad news that our ex racer has been diagnosed with Wobblers stage 1 caused by arthritis in his neck. He's been medicated in his neck and will need 6 months rest but the chance of this working is only 50%. And to be honest I've only heard bad things about the outcome of wobblers, however I wasn't aware that there was 'stages' of the disease.
The symptoms were tripping and discomfort walking down hill. Does anyone have any form of success story from this sort of diagnosis?
Thanks

I don't have any success story or anything else but this makes very interesting reading and might help you understand the process in more detail. This explains the neuro test in detail and the grading which I think you are referring to. My friends horse was Grade 3 touching on Grade 4. He fell in the field and hurt his neck, the neck pain and inability to raise his neck was apparent during the time I was there on the day it happened. He had periods of remission where he continued to jump BSJA successfully as this hadn't been diagnosed at that stage. He eventually went on to be diagnosed at a veterinary hospital as the portable xray mc the vet had used didn't detect any abnormality. He was PTS on the advice of the consultant.
https://www.equinewobblers.com/diagnostics/neurological_examination.html

My horse I would say is still at Grade 1 stage. She has the 'hidden malformation' that Sharon May-Davis writes about in her article on the link attached. Makes worrying but interesting reading. When she cannot be ridden anymore (if it progresses and xray images from earlier have suggested it has progressed quite a lot) she will be reassessed and hopefully retired until her death either forced upon me, or natural. I am extremely confident she is not in any pain as she has been assessed by a Consultant who specialises in such matters.

https://thehorsesback.com/c6-c7-malformation/

The sculpture 'gift horse' displayed in Trafalgar Square displays the malformation, (although this wasn't known at the time sculpture was made by the artist)

 

[SEL]

Interesting on the extravagant gait. We have a warmblood on this yard who is diagnosed wobblers and retired. I was watching him playing in the field and awesome paces - such a shame.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Interesting on the extravagant gait. We have a warmblood on this yard who is diagnosed wobblers and retired. I was watching him playing in the field and awesome paces - such a shame.

They typically have a high foot movement compared to other horses due to loading of front feet according to the article. My friends wobblers horse moved so nicely in trot but in canter he had a very peculiar hopping movement that 'jumped' you out of the saddle.

 

[ycbm]

They typically have a high foot movement compared to other horses due to loading of front feet according to the article.

I don't see that explanation in either of the articles, HB. I couldn't agreed with it, mine was, and the other dressage horses which move like it are, uphill in their movement and sit on their hocks to get the push up off the floor to get height in the movement.

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[hopscotch bandit]

I don't see that explanation in either of the articles, HB. I couldn't agreed with it, mine was, and the other dressage horses which move like it are, uphill in their movement and sit on their hocks to get the push up off the floor to get height in the movement.

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Sorry it says high foot issue so I understood that to mean lifting front feet high, sorry my misinterpretation. My friends wobbler had a very extravagant action which led many people to think it had hackney bloodlines in its breeding. The consultant at the hospital said that this was quite common with wobblers syndrome although I have no idea why. Its actually called hypermetria. Here are extracts from articles about it. You can find the same under Wobblers Horses with Hypermetria.

 

[ycbm]

My guess, having had one, is that he needed to be in the air as long as possible to work out where he should put his feet when they came down without knocking or treading on himself.

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[milliepops]

the lack of proprioception with mine is most apparent with rows of poles on the ground. She hasn't a clue how to do a line of poles because she can't spend enough time looking where she is going. if you put just one down then she clearly looks what she's doing.
I agree it was explained to me that the extravagant trot is just because she doesn't really know where she's putting her feet so gives airtime to clear any obstacles I never see a bunny hop in canter but I guess if/when I do then i know it's time to reassess.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I'm another, with the comments on your other thread, who can't see the point of the turning away for neck arthritis.

Agree, I suppose all vets do it differently. I'd like to know Dickie Hepburns opinion on the turn away for 6 months, hes a specialist in this area who travels the world medicating 5* eventers and grand prix horses with this issue, he said its common in dressage horses. If you don't get a improvement, might be asking him for a second opinion. Dickie did say previously if its all compression it can take the steriod up to several months to reduce it and see any improvements neurologically, where as the pain relief would be strongest within several weeks of first injecting.

Unfortunately the majority I know aren't good stories but I do have one good one. A friend who has a WB with a arthritic neck at only 5. Medicated when mine was by Dickie the same week, her symptoms were ALL neurological and she was a mid stage wobbler. The arthritis wasn't terrible, more the compression that was causing the issues so they don't think hers was painful. She was medicated 10 months ago and is better than ever. She was actually sold as a happy hack to her friend, who was aware of the issues and shes doing so well. Dressage is promising, jumping. Shes built lots of muscle and looks cracking in all honesty. They didn't think she'd ever event, but I can't see it stopping her.

Dickie said she may not need to have steriods again which is fab. According to his opinion, steriods don't work for long if its controlling the pain aspect, but tend to work much better for a longer period if the horse has more nerve compression than pain. Thats why he thinks my cobs steriods didn't last very long, is issue is the pain of the arthritis. He felt great within the first 3 months and then almost suddenly felt worse than ever before.

I'd guess mine was only a 1/5 on the wobbler scale. What led us to find the arthritic neck was when we asked for him to turn in tight circles he just couldn't cross his legs. When I first bought him 5 years ago the vet who visited to do jabs had him trotted up, turning in tight circles and he did a perfect job so just shows it wasn't a problem then. He has the arthritis in C6-C7 vertebra which was graded 4/5 on the scale in December 2018, Dickie thinks its a malformation.

In the last year of his ridden life, BEFORE we medicated he was really un-careful with show jumps or poles in general, worse than ever. To the point he'd demolish them and there would be poles everywhere. I always thought coincidence, a mixture of my poor riding and he'd got lazy with show jumps but clearly not @milliepops. Instructor after instructor use to come up with ideas to get him to pick his front legs up, we would of placed at numerous ODEs if he jumped SJ clear but can't ever think of a time he did.

Our last hunter trial before diagnosis, now when I watch the videos back, even though he was full steam ahead.. he was knocking a few of the fences with his front end (and never touched a XC fence prior to this) yet he completed it and came first against all the big horses, all 14.2 of him.. bless him. It was also his travelling which got worse and worse, yet after being medicated he was amazing to travel and then slowly deteriorated again once the steriod wore off. Hes retired now and hes been for 6 months. (sorry for the long reply!)

 

[hopscotch bandit]

On this subject I've been corresponding with an orthopaedic veterinary surgeon based in American who has collaboratively written chapters in a book about surgical intervention for wobblers horses with a well know veterinary surgeon in the UK. He carries out wobblers surgery as norm at his clinic in America.

I approached him as I was curious whether horses that had my horses problem always went on to get Wobblers. I didn't expect to receive a reply if I'm honest but he has been extremely forthcoming and very interested in my horses case in particular (with the strange C7/T1 transverse process) that Sharon May Davis wrote about https://thehorsesback.com/c6-c7-malformation/.

What he told me astonished me. He said that this surgery is quite active in this country, and there are clinics that fairly routinely fuse vertebrae of wobblers horses including RVC in Potters Bar, Rainbow Equine in Malton, Donnington Grove in Newbury and Liphook in Hants. Of course I am not interested for my horse, I wouldn't consider this at her age but his viewpoint is still very interesting and I am in awe of his knowledge and experience.

He has also operated on a number of horses successfully including a famous racehorse that went on to have surgery in its mid 20's (not something I agree on personally but this was a prized stallion at stud) and has also said that if someone had a talented young horse with this condition then consideration should be given to intervertebral fusion. This is because the fusion will stabilize the joints and prevent the instability. Lay off is typically 60 days but this can be reduced with good and experienced management.

 

[ycbm]

Really interesting HB, thanks. I know the basket operation for removal of the congenital syndrome at C3/4 was considered unethical a few years back, but provided there is enough room for the spinal cord through the middle, fusing two vertebrae low down in the less mobile part of the neck sounds a feasible option. After all, we do it in humans all the time.

On the bright side, a friend whose 6 year old mare had arthritis impinging the nerve at C6 which has had everything thrown at it (shockwave, steroids, intravenous arthritis drug) is doing very well and looks hopeful for a normal life.

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[ramsaybailey]

all really interesting above. There so much I dont know about this!!

An update - our experience with the vets haven't been amazing, sort of felt like they jumped to a diagnosis and didn't leave feeling like we had a full understanding of how they came to the conclusion they did. But of course you accept it as they're trained professionals and we're not!

Anyway, got the horse home, did carrot stretches as recommended and he was 100x better doing them after his neck injections. Did a few 'tests' - walking backwards, turning in a tight circle, trying to cross his front legs - all very normal looking to an untrained eye, so again feeling a bit uneasy about this diagnosis, but obviously not disregarding it.
So decided for a second opinion on the neck x rays (as this is how current vets decided he was stage 1 wobblers) and next vet said he couldn't see any sign of his neck causing wobblers - very concerning!!

So now we're thinking of getting a 3rd opinion. I've never ever had this problem before, always been really happy with the vets I use (im in the cotswolds horses is in wales so different vets), but something felt off about the first vets experience.

Of course he could still have wobblers, he was diagnosed by them for a reason, but it's all a bit uncertain now. If he has it, its very sad but it is what it is, however we obviously want to make sure he definitely does have it!! and not 'just' neck arthrits

How were your horses diagnosed? What did the vets base the diagnosis on?

Thanks

 

[milliepops]

Mine was on x rays as they were remarkably clear but before we saw them my vet had told me to expect to need to do a ct myelogram to know for sure.

 

[ramsaybailey]

Mine was on x rays as they were remarkably clear but before we saw them my vet had told me to expect to need to do a ct myelogram to know for sure.

Thanks. havent even heard of this! Just want to know whats actually wrong, poor horse loves life and deserves the best outcome we can give him, so difficult to know what to do with mixed diagnosis.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

My friends horse was incorrectly diagnosed with having EHV on account of the horse being ataxic and the xrays taken by the portable machine they took to her yard not showing any abnormality.

Sadly the truth was eventually revealed at Liverpool Horspital when the horse underwent extensive standing xrays with a huge xray/CT scanner.

The young vet who was 'so excited' to have been the first vet in the Midlands to have discovered EHV. The xray mc that was too weak to penetrate the neck muscles giving a false reading. The tunnel vision thinking which delayed the diagnosis as the horse was prevented from attending the hospital due to the danger of spreading the EHV that he never had. Catalogue of bad decisions. You couldnt make it up.

OP i would get the horse reffered to a specialist who deals with neuro conditions.

 

[ramsaybailey]

The young vet who was 'so excited' to have been the first vet in the Midlands to have discovered EHV. The xray mc that was too weak to penetrate the neck muscles giving a false reading. The tunnel vision thinking which delayed the diagnosis as the horse was prevented from attending the hospital due to the danger of spreading the EHV that he never had. Catalogue of bad decisions. You couldnt make it up.
^ thats quite scary!!! I've alwyas been so trusting of vets up until this. The 'tunnel vision' you mentioned resonates a bit, I could be completely wrong and it could in fact be the first vets that are right, but somethings not sitting right with the way the diagnosis was made. However he was at a hospital so it was done with a 'proper' xray.

OP i would get the horse reffered to a specialist who deals with neuro conditions.[/QUOTE]

good idea!

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Rainbow Equine in Malton was mentioned in particular by the consultant I've been corresponding with in America. Might be worth speaking to them. When Im back at work on Monday i will check my email and see if he recommended anyone in particular and Pm you the name. My friend was told a few years ago by someone on the forum she was giving peole false hope by mentioning surgery was carried out in this country. Turns out she was right all along.

 

[ycbm]

Mine was xrayed and the chips broken off C4 were clear, along with a narrow channel in C3 and a misalignment between the two.

 

[ycbm]

Friends C6 malformation causing explosive behaviour also clear on X ray.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Lots of reasons. I expect xray machines are better now. Or maybe it depends on how the xrays are set up i.e contrast settings. Friends horse had metal in its cheek. Vet xrayed twice and couldnt find anything. On 3rd attempt changed setting (sorry not sure of correct terminology) and sure enough it was clear as a bell. It was also around 2005 wobblers horse xrayed so things have come on a bit since then. Or maybe it was the interpretation of the xrays which was wrong. Who knows.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Mine could be seen on portable x-ray machine, then when he visited visited the vet hospital it was re x-rayed on their stronger x-ray machine which was very clear compared to the portable machine.
Was his done on portable x-ray or at the hospital OP?

The specialist did say you can't see spinal cord restriction on x-ray but there would be some due to the extent of the arthritis. Only way of proving spinal cord restriction was to CT scan with dye, if we wanted a certain answer but the specialist said hes seen this time and time again and can almost guarantee us what it would show on CT and he personally thought CT scan wasn't worth the money. He was un-insured and that would cost over £2,000 so went against the CT scan. It would of just shown the extent of it, which we already guessed was bad and wouldn't of changed treatment.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Mine could be seen on portable x-ray machine, then when he visited visited the vet hospital it was re x-rayed on their stronger x-ray machine which was very clear compared to the portable machine.
Was his done on portable x-ray or at the hospital OP?

The specialist did say you can't see spinal cord restriction on x-ray but there would be some due to the extent of the arthritis. Only way of proving spinal cord restriction was to CT scan with dye, if we wanted a certain answer but the specialist said hes seen this time and time again and can almost guarantee us what it would show on CT and he personally thought CT scan wasn't worth the money. He was un-insured and that would cost over £2,000 so went against the CT scan. It would of just shown the extent of it, which we already guessed was bad and wouldn't of changed treatment.

Yes its a myelogram (CT with dye). I was told if a myelogram was performed with my horse there would be an 87% chance of having cord compression as xrays indicate this already as did your specialist due to the extent of your horses arthritis under xray. This was only a considered opinion during conversation and not because I wanted to go down this route.

It would scare me going down this route in a neuro horse who is already ataxic but then there is nothing as good as a myelogram for a definite diagnosis as far as I'm aware. It just scares me with the GA in an already neuro compromised horse as sadly there is a 1 in 100 mortality rate with GA (from panicking when coming round and breaking bones or not even coming round) But you are caught between a rock and a hard place in this type of situation and if its because you want a definite answer in order to make a decision about a horses future you would have to bite the bullet and get on with it and roll with the risks.

However in the case of my friends horse with wobblers and the consultant at Phillip Leverhulme saying that the horse had a gap of 17mm in his spinal column to allow the cord to pass through against what it should have had which was 51mm, he could tell this from xrays alone. My friend described the xrays as segments, so I wonder if the horse went in some kind of CT scanner, although it couldn't have as it never underwent a GA unless you can put necks in a CT scanner without knocking a horse out (maybe you can).

 

[Hormonal Filly]

It would scare me going down this route in a neuro horse who is already ataxic but then there is nothing as good as a myelogram for a definite diagnosis as far as I'm aware. It just scares me with the GA in an already neuro compromised horse as sadly there is a 1 in 100 mortality rate with GA (from panicking when coming round and breaking bones or not even coming round)

Funnily enough you mention the risks, a friends horse had the CT and dye as she was diagnosed as a wobbler. She had a reaction to the dye, apparently 1 in thousands chance of it happening and extremely rare, but they nearly lost her. She made a full recovery but it was touch and go when it happened!

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Funnily enough you mention the risks, a friends horse had the CT and dye as she was diagnosed as a wobbler. She had a reaction to the dye, apparently 1 in thousands chance of it happening and extremely rare, but they nearly lost her. She made a full recovery but it was touch and go when it happened!

Sorry I reworded it a little after I'd posted my reply. Gosh that's rare I should imagine, I was thinking more of broken legs from unassisted recovery and dying under anaesthetic.