Wobbly Showjumpers

[xspiralx]

[ QUOTE ]
So, no points therefore not worth doing it as well as it can be done?

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But who says they aren't doing it as well as can be done?

I would hazard a guess that they are riding in the way that best suits their particular horses and frankly, so long as they aren't negatively affecting the horse, who cares? Looking pretty doesn't equal riding more effectively.

I don't for a minute think that top riders are above critique, but I do think its a bit much to claim that the majority of british SJer have poor seats and ought to change how they ride.

 

[MrsMozart]

Not 'looking pretty'. Riding with the seat where it should be, and the leg where it should be. It's not just over the jumps, it's between and afterwards. It looks as though they can't be bothered - again, not the best of words but head can't always find the perfect ones at the moment

. Having seen the rider's balance all over the shop, one would have thought that the horse could go better if it didn't have this shifting of weight both over the jumps, inbetween, before and after.

 

[kerilli]

it's funny that the really top boys and girls, and those heading there (Ben Maher, Will Whitaker etc) seem to have really textbook styles...

 

[xspiralx]

Well I would be very interested to hear what people you are actually talking about, because personally I can't think of any top riders off the top of my head who have no balance and are "all over the shop." I find it very hard to believe that someone could be that unbalanced and still go clear round a 1.60m course, so it would be good to see some video evidence of what you mean. Perhaps I just haven't witnessed these riders.

 

[MrsMozart]

Next time I watch SJ on telly, I'll write down the names and post them

. No idea how to video off the telly though

.

 

[seabiscuit]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I would be very interested to hear what people you are actually talking about, because personally I can't think of any top riders off the top of my head who have no balance and are "all over the shop." I find it very hard to believe that someone could be that unbalanced and still go clear round a 1.60m course, so it would be good to see some video evidence of what you mean. Perhaps I just haven't witnessed these riders.

[/ QUOTE ]

Robert Whitaker? Geoff Billington? Nick Skelton? ( yes I know he is Nick Skelton, but he was a different rider in his younger days- now his back/neck problems are evident) Ellen Whitaker/Louise Whitaker? They all have exceptionally good horses.

William Whitaker, Ben Maher etc that sort of style is the only style that matches the best of the German and the dutch/french riders. Ben and William are v. similar styles to people like Ludger Beerbaum, Michel Robert....the true horsemen that ride with feeling and finesse

 

[MandyMoo]

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I think that unless anybody jumps at 1.60m, then they arnt in a position to comment....

You dont get a horse to that level unless your pretty damn good, wobbly seat or not!

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i agree...perfect position isnt everything...they get good results dont they? so what does it matter? xx

 

[Lanky Loll]

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William Whitaker, Ben Maher etc that sort of style is the only style that matches the best of the German and the dutch/french riders. Ben and William are v. similar styles to people like Ludger Beerbaum, Michel Robert....the true horsemen that ride with feeling and finesse

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Possibly because of time spent in European yards?? I know Ben was in one of them for a while (sorry can't think which at the mo), but I also know from having watched him on 12.2's that he's always been a stylish jockey

 

[TarrSteps]

William definitely spent time on the Continent (perhaps with Jan Tops - can't remember) but he also spent at least two good chunks of time doing the Equitations in the US, which has been the starting point for all the American (and Canadian) showjumpers, often combined to best effect with time in Europe too. But then that's probably not pertinent since the Americans really haven't done anything in showjumping.

 

[Lanky Loll]

So basically we're saying that we need to send all our jockeys abroad for training before they can be any good

 

[stencilface]

I think its nice if you can see people in a good position throughout a course, but its not everything.

Leaving the fences up in showjumping is the name of the game, not something that seems to be very important in eventing apparently!

If you have an 'individual' style and yet its effective without hindering or hurting the horse then who cares? Anyone remember Annette Miller going round Hickstead? She was certainly individual, but was still doing the Derby, which I know not just any tom dick or harry can qualify for

 

[dieseldog]

I think the only thing an eventer can teach you about show jumping is how not to be too upset when your horse knocks all those poles down.

 

[Rambo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its nice if you can see people in a good position throughout a course, but its not everything.

Leaving the fences up in showjumping is the name of the game, not something that seems to be very important in eventing apparently!

If you have an 'individual' style and yet its effective without hindering or hurting the horse then who cares? Anyone remember Annette Miller going round Hickstead? She was certainly individual, but was still doing the Derby, which I know not just any tom dick or harry can qualify for

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean Annette Lewis

 

[Weezy]

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William Whitaker, Ben Maher etc that sort of style is the only style that matches the best of the German and the dutch/french riders. Ben and William are v. similar styles to people like Ludger Beerbaum, Michel Robert....the true horsemen that ride with feeling and finesse

[/ QUOTE ]

So you honestly think that the rest do not have feeling or finesse? Horses would NOT keep jumping and winning for the crap riders (

) if they were made to feel unbalanced.

 

[Erehwemos]

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I think the only thing an eventer can teach you about show jumping is how not to be too upset when your horse knocks all those poles down.

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LMAO - that's the best quote I've seen on here in weeks

My SJ trainer used to say that eventing was for giften amateurs

 

[MandyMoo]

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I think the only thing an eventer can teach you about show jumping is how not to be too upset when your horse knocks all those poles down.

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lol! xx

 

[xspiralx]

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Robert Whitaker? Geoff Billington? Nick Skelton? ( yes I know he is Nick Skelton, but he was a different rider in his younger days- now his back/neck problems are evident) Ellen Whitaker/Louise Whitaker? They all have exceptionally good horses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I must be seeing completely different things to you then, because in none of these videos can I see riders who are unbalanced and all over the place. Some, granted, have unorthodox style, but no matter how good a horse is, they wouldn't physically be able to jump rounds like that with riders who were flopping about and hindering rather than helping. Geoff for example might look a little bouncy but his leg is rock solid and his horse is beautifully balanced and in a lovely rhythm - I think that says a lot more than whether he looks pretty all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGZBY80y3dw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hPCqUppY40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EkIfAP2fL0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2d_WoMpD7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf_eE3YCOGE

[I know a couple are different to the ones you mentioned, but none of them are the riders that have been highlighted as good.]

Of course thats not to say that there aren't things each could improve on, but I'm afraid I simply can't see that "The majority of the riders have about as secure a seat as I do on a bad day on Dizzy," unless MrsMozart is actually Andrew Nicholson!

I agree that William Whitaker, John Whitaker, Ben Maher etc are really excellent riders but I also don't think they have lower quality horses than the other riders above, and yet they don't completely dominate the top placings.

 

[ester]

geoff b always makes me smile watching him but horses always go for him

 

[MrsMozart]

Interesting. I didn't realize that Eventers and Showjumpers felt such competition between their disciplines

. As ever, I have much to learn

.

As to my comment re secure seats. Watch a televised competition (I think the one I was watching was in Slovenia). Watch the riders between the jumps and after completing the course - which was part of my original comment

: a good number if them do not sit quiet (and by quiet I'm refering to a good, steady seat with legs calm down the sides of their horse): their legs wobble and wibble. Riders at the very top of the game do, on the whole, look secure and in contact, and again, whilst I appreciate that there are different styles over fences, when the horse has done his job, in my opinion, the rider should sit steady

Of course there are going to be individual styles, and I've seen some interesting ones over the years, but those at the top have all had the same in common

. It is not a case of being pretty, it is definately a case of being effective, but I know that if we were to sponsor someone, we'd want it to be someone who is effective and looks in harmony with their horse. If Daughter were to get to those giddy heights we would want the same. If I get to those giddy heights, I would expect the same of me

.

Sometimes I do wonder why/how the horses keep going and jumping when their riders look so unbalanced and (here's another one) flappy. No idea. I know some horses that will try and do whatever is asked of them, no matter what, and others who, if things are not perfect, will flatly refuse. Then again, maybe to some horses riders who look unbalanced and flappy is perfection

.

The number of views and posts on this one is interesting: I did not expect that it would cause such debate.

Hm. Maybe, if horse and I are ever both fit and well at the same time, I'll get to fly round a course - the question is, BSJA or BE

.

P.S. I'll have it videoed and we can see if I wobble 'n' wibble

Edited because: as previously mentioned, head is not all it should be and occassionally I miss things, or don't word properly.

 

[MrsMozart]

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geoff b always makes me smile watching him but horses always go for him

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I like Geoff B

. In my humble opinion, he's excellent

. I know he bobbled around and talks about his 'stumpy legs' but his seat is calm n steady before n after

 

[TarrSteps]

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So basically we're saying that we need to send all our jockeys abroad for training before they can be any good

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Not at all.

The UK has an incredible history of sj success. But these days almost all the very top riders have spent at least some time in other systems or established training systems have brought in outside influences to help educate their own people. There used to be - within the last 30 years even - very distinct regional "schools" that involved types of horses, riding styles and course building. This is hardly the case these days - riding, horses and courses are remarkable homogenous. The best in the world either are very adaptable or very good an know what sort of horse and what school of training suits them best, which means knowing a lot about the options. I think the fact that the younger Whitakers have all been abroad for some time, just as North Americans and other Europeans have come here, shows just how "on top" of this people are now. The top young riders look remarkably similar now, although there are bound to be differences because of body type etc.

 

[ann-jen]

Spiral - thanks for some of those clips - they were great! On the basis of some of those you showed - I personally think Robert Whitaker's style has really improved in the last few years and that clip showed that IMHO. Geoff bless him is never going to look elegant on a horse, as he says himself he has quite short legs which affects the way he sits to the horse - but I recently went to a demo of his and was very impressed with the way the horse's went for him and his riding generally. That round in the Derby was superb as was WF's from last year. Ellen seems to get a lot of flak on this forum which I can never quite understand why. A lot of the horses she gets to ride are far from easy and watching the way she sat to Ladina in last nights puissance at 7ft1 certainly impressed me.
On a general note I think when the fences are getting up to the dizzy heights of 1.60m its more difficult to keep the classical lower leg position just from the sheer propulsion of the jump.

 

[SpottedCat]

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I think the only thing an eventer can teach you about show jumping is how not to be too upset when your horse knocks all those poles down.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what we learn from SJers is that if your horse gets you E for stopping in the 90cm, then the 1m, not getting past the second fence in either class, it is perfectly rational to enter it in the 1.10 in the main ring because *if* it jumps, you may win! I am constantly amazed by how completely unbothered SJers are about horses which stop!

PS - DD knows I am not talking about her, but I did watch that scenario in a BSJA show, and yes, they did win the 1.10 - I wouldn't be brave enough!!

 

[stencilface]

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I think you mean Annette Lewis

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Was she Annette Miller before though? How dare people get married if thats the case!

I think Geoff B as said above, does look a little bouncy but having seen him jump round up to a 1.20 course in the mix and match at Bramham with a glass of champagne in one hand and not spilling a drop (SJers aren't likely to

) I think he must be pretty secure!

 

[Woody78]

I think that Ben Maher trained with Beat Mandli, who, to my mind, is one of the most classically effective riders of the current generation.

Geoff, is never going to be able to sit on a horse in a classical position, however whilst he may look a bit bobbly he is always in balance and soft.

To be fair, when you are built like William/Ben Maher - tall, slim with long legs, it is a lot easier to sit in a classical position with legs wrapped around the horse. Most of the Irish riders ride beautifully - looking as if they have been lunged from birth - but is this down to a childhood of haring around bareback and hunting thus developing a naturally balanced and independent seat?

I think you have a point about riders being looser in the saddle but there are always exceptions - Alan Oliver, Joe Turi, and the huffing and puffing Hugo Simon.

 

[Fahrenheit]

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I think the only thing an eventer can teach you about show jumping is how not to be too upset when your horse knocks all those poles down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Classic

Well I have alot of admiration for riders in all disciplines

However, I feel I should tell everyone the classic line I heard at Summerhouse a few weeks back...
A certain shall remain nameless eventer turned up as usual to jump 'on a ticket', proceeded to get their usual cricket score, then after when they were sat on the table next to moi were heard to be criticising show jumpers techniques and then said that eventers are better show jumpers than show jumpers

should this comment be heard again, I shall be pulling out DD comment from above

 

[Rambo]

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[ QUOTE ]


I think you mean Annette Lewis

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Was she Annette Miller before though? How dare people get married if thats the case!

I think Geoff B as said above, does look a little bouncy but having seen him jump round up to a 1.20 course in the mix and match at Bramham with a glass of champagne in one hand and not spilling a drop (SJers aren't likely to

) I think he must be pretty secure!

[/ QUOTE ]

She's been Annette Lewis for as long as i've known her (early 80's)...and as her sister was Michelle Lewis i don't think she was married back then

 

[Rambo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the only thing an eventer can teach you about show jumping is how not to be too upset when your horse knocks all those poles down.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what we learn from SJers is that if your horse gets you E for stopping in the 90cm, then the 1m, not getting past the second fence in either class, it is perfectly rational to enter it in the 1.10 in the main ring because *if* it jumps, you may win! I am constantly amazed by how completely unbothered SJers are about horses which stop!

PS - DD knows I am not talking about her, but I did watch that scenario in a BSJA show, and yes, they did win the 1.10 - I wouldn't be brave enough!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been eliminated in a smaller class and then been placed in a bigger class on the same day on more than one occasion....we call it 'having a look at the ring

 

[SJFAN]

Her married name was Miller. The marriage did not last very long.

 

[Rambo]

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Her married name was Miller. The marriage did not last very long.

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Ah...that would explain it....as she definitwely rides as Annette Lewis again now