ajn1610
Well-Known Member
Didn't catch it what was the general standard like? Were they as bad as the men? What did the horses look like after the appalling rounds last time?
women's pentathlon
- Thread starter ajn1610
- Start date
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
women displayed MUCH better riding
think the jumps were lowered by 10cm which made it a little softer on horses and riders
we saw a few clear rounds, in the main horses were looking appreciative of some kinder riding, many were jumping enthusiastically and being very genuine
the main issue was a few horses starting to look very tired (presumably not really fit enough to start with, combined with heavy going in arena, hot temperatures and the idiot men the day before) and one or two horses were uneven behind - and were not immediately taken out of the competition. No sign of vets etc.
Overall lack of consideration to animal welfare from organising parties, but then given china's human rights record, what do we expect from their animal rights?
think the jumps were lowered by 10cm which made it a little softer on horses and riders
we saw a few clear rounds, in the main horses were looking appreciative of some kinder riding, many were jumping enthusiastically and being very genuine
the main issue was a few horses starting to look very tired (presumably not really fit enough to start with, combined with heavy going in arena, hot temperatures and the idiot men the day before) and one or two horses were uneven behind - and were not immediately taken out of the competition. No sign of vets etc.
Overall lack of consideration to animal welfare from organising parties, but then given china's human rights record, what do we expect from their animal rights?
ajn1610
Well-Known Member
Just found the post further down - not much better I gather.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
the riding was MUCH better overall, it really was.
horse welfare, not any better (other than the fact they weren't being gobbed in the mouth quite so much)
horse welfare, not any better (other than the fact they weren't being gobbed in the mouth quite so much)
ajn1610
Well-Known Member
I know what you mean RF but shouldn't the FEI or someone be governing this element of the competition, so it is out of the host nations hands? Is there someone we can complain to?
One of the other posts said someone had emailed. I really feel it is unacceptable for the pentathlon not to follow the guidelines of EVERY other horse sport. At the smallest local show you'd get pulled up if your horse was obviously lame. I know it isn't the most pressing welfare issue on the face of the planet but it would be a relatively easy one to solve, you just have to change the rules. This is what I would do...
!) horse fall = elimination
2) 2 rider falls = elimination
3) competitors displaying incompetent/dangerous riding will be flagged and made to pull up.
4) height of fences lowered to 1m.
5) horses must be presented and passed fit by vets before entering the pool.
I don't want to see this repeated in four years time on British soil.
One of the other posts said someone had emailed. I really feel it is unacceptable for the pentathlon not to follow the guidelines of EVERY other horse sport. At the smallest local show you'd get pulled up if your horse was obviously lame. I know it isn't the most pressing welfare issue on the face of the planet but it would be a relatively easy one to solve, you just have to change the rules. This is what I would do...
!) horse fall = elimination
2) 2 rider falls = elimination
3) competitors displaying incompetent/dangerous riding will be flagged and made to pull up.
4) height of fences lowered to 1m.
5) horses must be presented and passed fit by vets before entering the pool.
I don't want to see this repeated in four years time on British soil.
catembi
Well-Known Member
I was giving this some thought last night - is there any reason, apart from tradition, why they couldn't do a dressage test instead of jumping? It's still a test of equestrian ability...
Chestnuttymare
Well-Known Member
i saw some of it. it was better, the riding wasn't great in my opinion but the horses didn't take a hammering.
i was really concerned about a gelding called baby, who jumped a decent round for the french rider, it didn't look right all the way round then when she was walking out of the ring it was definitely lame. it looked to me like a hip problem. i couldn't believe it when baby came back in with a different rider about 15 minutes later. i was so disgusted. the riders also just got off and walked away without even an acknowledgment to the horse who had just tried its heart out for them.
i was really concerned about a gelding called baby, who jumped a decent round for the french rider, it didn't look right all the way round then when she was walking out of the ring it was definitely lame. it looked to me like a hip problem. i couldn't believe it when baby came back in with a different rider about 15 minutes later. i was so disgusted. the riders also just got off and walked away without even an acknowledgment to the horse who had just tried its heart out for them.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
one or two riders fussed their horses afterwards, to be fair.
the overall standard of the womens' riding wasn't bad really, most of them i'd have put on one of mine to do a minimus! some of the horses weren't too easy, and some were wrong behind. one bashed the last 2 fences hard and finished on 3 legs, one hind leg held up dramatically, but it was walking reasonably well on it a few mins later. must admit, i didn't expect it to be ridden round again 30 mins later...
i think the riding part is always over jumps, in pc it's often xc, isn't it? my first thought, that an indoor-xc kind of thing might have been easier, i've reviewed... i think some of the guys would probably have died riding as they did at fixed fences.
the overall standard of the womens' riding wasn't bad really, most of them i'd have put on one of mine to do a minimus! some of the horses weren't too easy, and some were wrong behind. one bashed the last 2 fences hard and finished on 3 legs, one hind leg held up dramatically, but it was walking reasonably well on it a few mins later. must admit, i didn't expect it to be ridden round again 30 mins later...
i think the riding part is always over jumps, in pc it's often xc, isn't it? my first thought, that an indoor-xc kind of thing might have been easier, i've reviewed... i think some of the guys would probably have died riding as they did at fixed fences.
MooMoo
Well-Known Member
i'm hating the bbc's attitude to it as well.
mum's watching the olypic day highlights and someone mentioned the women having to do showjumping "on THOSE horses" .
WHAT?! if the treatment itself wasnt bad enough this just adds insult to...well....the cruelty (and injuries too probably)
i agree a dressage test would be better.
and the women were quite alot better but there was still the odd yank on the mouth. today's problems were less about the riders more about the lameness and tiredness of the horses.
mum's watching the olypic day highlights and someone mentioned the women having to do showjumping "on THOSE horses" .
WHAT?! if the treatment itself wasnt bad enough this just adds insult to...well....the cruelty (and injuries too probably)
i agree a dressage test would be better.
and the women were quite alot better but there was still the odd yank on the mouth. today's problems were less about the riders more about the lameness and tiredness of the horses.
0ldmare
Well-Known Member
You can email a message to the Pentathlon organisation through the following link. At the end of the day its their rules that say you can keep trying to get the horse to jump until the time runs out irrespective of the number of falls, refusals or if its only on 3 legs...
http://www.pentathlon.org/index.php?id=23
http://www.pentathlon.org/index.php?id=23
ajn1610
Well-Known Member
Also why the difference in height? Men and Women compete over the same courses in other competitions, so why not here?
Irishcobs
Well-Known Member
The height was dropped for the horses, not the riders.
See my reply in the other Womens Pentathlon thread.
See my reply in the other Womens Pentathlon thread.
madmav
Well-Known Member
Thank you oldmare for that link, was about to research where to put my protest. Have emailed them. It was basically watching animal cruelty re the men. Horrid riders. Women were much better.
But they sent that obviously lame horse (I'm no vet, but if it's not actually using one leg...) back into the ring two more times. And they had jump three rounds because the men had knacked all the horses day before. Vile.
But they sent that obviously lame horse (I'm no vet, but if it's not actually using one leg...) back into the ring two more times. And they had jump three rounds because the men had knacked all the horses day before. Vile.
basil99
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the information re the |Pentathlon organisation - I too was appalled and fear many of the horses really suffered. I could not believe the French rider who came out on a 3 legged horse and was totally unconcerned only waving to the crowd. I saw little compassion for the plight of the horses from any of the riders. I have e mailed the Organisation as suggested and urge everyone else to do the same.
Wishful
Well-Known Member
Before you condemn pentathlon out of hand - how about looking at previous results to see how typical that level of problems in the show jumping would be...
It sounded to me like the organisation in China wasn't up to scratch, rather than a problem for the pentathlon organisation in general.
Most horses would be expected to do 3 rounds a day at a show in the UK, plus warm ups - say working hunter and a couple of BSJA rounds and jump off - that doesn't seem excessive. Throw in a couple of clear rounds - a lot of people would do 3 rounds in an evening - just need to make sure the horses are fit enough, which would seem to be the main problem from this event.
I would imagine that a lot of the issues came from the fact that pentathlon was the only horsey event based in Beijing - I doubt the same problems would have occurred had the event been held in Hong Kong!
I think that the reason Showjumping is chosen is because it is objective - dressage and style and performance are far too subjective - every other event in Pentathlon is near enough objective - epee is easily the most objective fencing event - hit shown on box is scored unless you hit something that isn't your opponent - floor, box, judge! or you were in breach of the rules - not many of those either.
I would imagine that the reason that some nations focus less on riding training is that given limited time (training for 5 sports) and that horses are drawn at random, sj is less in your control so you will focus more on things that are entirely in your control - swimming, shooting and running, and to a lesser extent fencing (depends on opponents and referee (to an extent) as well. Most pentathletes' fencing is limited - what they know, they know well, but outside their comfort zone (15 hit matches) they run out of variations and tactics.
Modern pentathlon rules are here
http://www.pentathlon.org/fileadmin/download/Rules/II_Competition_Rules_2007.pdf
Seems that for a cat A event (Olympics should be cat A) there should have been only 1 rider/horse!...
It sounded to me like the organisation in China wasn't up to scratch, rather than a problem for the pentathlon organisation in general.
Most horses would be expected to do 3 rounds a day at a show in the UK, plus warm ups - say working hunter and a couple of BSJA rounds and jump off - that doesn't seem excessive. Throw in a couple of clear rounds - a lot of people would do 3 rounds in an evening - just need to make sure the horses are fit enough, which would seem to be the main problem from this event.
I would imagine that a lot of the issues came from the fact that pentathlon was the only horsey event based in Beijing - I doubt the same problems would have occurred had the event been held in Hong Kong!
I think that the reason Showjumping is chosen is because it is objective - dressage and style and performance are far too subjective - every other event in Pentathlon is near enough objective - epee is easily the most objective fencing event - hit shown on box is scored unless you hit something that isn't your opponent - floor, box, judge! or you were in breach of the rules - not many of those either.
I would imagine that the reason that some nations focus less on riding training is that given limited time (training for 5 sports) and that horses are drawn at random, sj is less in your control so you will focus more on things that are entirely in your control - swimming, shooting and running, and to a lesser extent fencing (depends on opponents and referee (to an extent) as well. Most pentathletes' fencing is limited - what they know, they know well, but outside their comfort zone (15 hit matches) they run out of variations and tactics.
Modern pentathlon rules are here
http://www.pentathlon.org/fileadmin/download/Rules/II_Competition_Rules_2007.pdf
Seems that for a cat A event (Olympics should be cat A) there should have been only 1 rider/horse!...
Chestnuttymare
Well-Known Member
I agree with a lot of what you say, but if a horse is doing 3 or 4 rounds of jumping with its owner or regular jockey, it is a lot less stressful if it is having to do this with 3 different riders of different weights, styles and capabilities. Also if the are not a good fencer or runner or whatever, they aren't going to damgae anyone else really, whereas, if they aren't a decent rider, there is a living breathing animal that can be damaged.