Won't Go Forward/Not Motivated

TheChestnutThing

TheChestnutThing

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A few months ago, after a battle of wills and a decision making process that spanned a year, I sold my 1.20m TB gelding as I no longer trusted him and he no longer trusted me and bought a KWPN 4 year old gelding bred in the Royal Purple to jump.

The KWPN is very well conformed and has a very level mind for a 4 year old and pops over anything you put in front of him. However...I was told that he had a year of schooling behind him and this year of schooling seems to have been nothing of the sort, he is incredibly lazy, so much so that my gym routine has been upped ten fold to make my legs even stronger.
I cannot keep him in a trot or a canter without serious amounts of leg and whip and the walk is worse than that of a geriatric lead rein pony.
He is NOT SORE, his saddle fits, his teeth have been done etc etc.
My instructor who is an ex BE 3 star and ex GP show jumper wants to "strangle" him and his non-motivational attitude. She said he is the most frustrating horse she has ever come across.
We hacked for 3 weeks, no arena work, to get him excited, up and down hills, through vineyards, along roads and no, nothing changes.
I refuse to jump a non-forward moving horse over anything bigger than 70cm either.

We changed his food from a 12% lucerne based food to a 12% WB meal and a balancer (25%) to try give him extra energy (in case that is what he was lacking). He has turn out from 8am until 5pm and roughage adlib.

When riding I have tried the:
Squeeze, kick, whip flick method
The Miss Piggy method
The squeeze, flick, smack method
I have tried light seat
I have tried driving with my seat
I have tried driving with my legs
I have tried legs of and then big riding school kick when he slows

We have done join up
We are doing in hand (to which he also has a ****** (colty) attitude)

I have NO idea what to do anymore.

Suggestions please!!!
 
FfionWinnie said:
Did he do this when you tried him?
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I did not try him. I sent a very good friend to try him as he was too far away from me and to take time from work in peak season was out of the question. She took her instructor with. He was lazy with her aswell, but both her and her instructor and subsequently myself agreed that his level headedness for a 4 year old was second to none.
 
Is he 'lazy' on a hack? Alone, in company, or both?
What happens if you jump him loose/on the lunge, without tack and with tack?
 
ycbm said:
Is he 'lazy' on a hack? Alone, in company, or both?
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He is "lazy" on a hack. Maybe a tiny bit more motivated. Company or on his own it doesn't matter. He gives a better trot (in fact a fantastic extended trot) on a hack if I ride next to my company and I try to keep him just behind and at the other horse's shoulder almost like you would do a racehorse when you want him to chase for a challenge, but come to cantering and you may as well be on a merry go round horse.
 
TheChestnutThing said:
He is "lazy" on a hack. Maybe a tiny bit more motivated. Company or on his own it doesn't matter. He gives a better trot (in fact a fantastic extended trot) on a hack if I ride next to my company and I try to keep him just behind and at the other horse's shoulder almost like you would do a racehorse when you want him to chase for a challenge, but come to cantering and you may as well be on a merry go round horse.
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I've known only one horse that sounds anything like him. By the age of seven it was obvious that he had some sort of metabolic disease, likely DSLD/ESPA but never confirmed. I would test your fellow for EPSM/PSSM (the genetic test for this is cheap and easy but there is another form that needs a biopsy). The test for DSLD is also a biopsy.

From the sound of it, he has a fairly deep seated issue, whether psychological or physical.
 
ycbm said:
I've known only one horse that sounds anything like him. By the age of seven it was obvious that he had some sort of metabolic disease, likely DSLD/ESPA but never confirmed. I would test your fellow for EPSM/PSSM (the genetic test for this is cheap and easy but there is another form that needs a biopsy). The test for DSLD is also a biopsy.

From the sound of it, he has a fairly deep seated issue, whether psychological or physical.
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Thank you. Would they not have picked this up in a full PPE though? Or is it something that cannot be picked up unless one is looking for it specially?
 
It won't be picked up unless they are testing for it. Both disease start with some fairly subtle signs in young horses.

I would put your boy on a no sugar, high fibre diet, and supplement him with 12,000iu of natural vitamin E and give him 10g a day of acetyl l carnetine. If he improves on that, then you have an effective diagnosis for EPSM.

Do a bit of googling of both diseases and see if any bells ring.
 
TheChestnutThing said:
Yes, he actually had the vet out last Thursday for vac's and I asked him re my issues and he took bloods. Nothing was picked up.
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You should be able to get alcar from a sports supplement/bodybuilder supplier and vitamin E from horse places I would hope, in SA. You should know within a week or two if it's working.
Neither of them has any side effects that I know of. I have two on it and they are different horses than when untreated.
 
ycbm said:
You should be able to get alcar from a sports supplement/bodybuilder supplier and vitamin E from horse places I would hope, in SA. You should know within a week or two if it's working.
Neither of them has any side effects that I know of. I have two on it and they are different horses than when untreated.
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Thank you, I shall go tomorrow and see what I am able to find in terms of that.
 
Mine was like this. ISH from an immaculate SJ pedigree, siblings competing internationally, at one Hickstead derby his half brother came 2nd & his full brother retired after the water jump... I bought him at 4 when he was very slightly stuffy, and the photo that made me go & see him was him jumping 1 m 25. We started competing, got to Disco/1.05, he gradually got stuffier & stuffier so I did all the usual, e.g. dropped him down to unaff, fast hacking, took him hunting etc. Long story short - it turned out to be EPSM & I eventually sold him as a happy hacker.

I sent off some mane for testing - it was -ve but there are 2 types of EPSM & the test can only pick up one of them. Also, the muscle biopsy can give a false -ve as it's not always the same muscles that are affected, & sometimes there's not enough damage to show up until the horse is 12. (When I was going thru it all, someone whose vet was an EPSM specialist told me this.)

Does this sound familiar: v stuffy to start with, first trot v shuffly, if you walk again then trot again, each subsequent trot is a little bit freer. If so, try the high oil diet - you will get a dramatic improvement within a day or 2 if it's EPSM. (If you want all the details of our saga, all my old threads/posts are probably on here somewhere - it would be around 2009-2011 & the horse's name was Adrian, if you want to search.)

T x
 
catembi said:
Mine was like this. ISH from an immaculate SJ pedigree, siblings competing internationally, at one Hickstead derby his half brother came 2nd & his full brother retired after the water jump... I bought him at 4 when he was very slightly stuffy, and the photo that made me go & see him was him jumping 1 m 25. We started competing, got to Disco/1.05, he gradually got stuffier & stuffier so I did all the usual, e.g. dropped him down to unaff, fast hacking, took him hunting etc. Long story short - it turned out to be EPSM & I eventually sold him as a happy hacker.

I sent off some mane for testing - it was -ve but there are 2 types of EPSM & the test can only pick up one of them. Also, the muscle biopsy can give a false -ve as it's not always the same muscles that are affected, & sometimes there's not enough damage to show up until the horse is 12. (When I was going thru it all, someone whose vet was an EPSM specialist told me this.)

Does this sound familiar: v stuffy to start with, first trot v shuffly, if you walk again then trot again, each subsequent trot is a little bit freer. If so, try the high oil diet - you will get a dramatic improvement within a day or 2 if it's EPSM. (If you want all the details of our saga, all my old threads/posts are probably on here somewhere - it would be around 2009-2011 & the horse's name was Adrian, if you want to search.)

T x
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Thank you for this.

He is not stuffy to start with at all, or shuffly, he actually tracks up and moves very well (in fact in his paddock you would think it's practicing for the loose movement olympics), he is just what one would term "lazy and un motivated". After a jump we can't keep the canter (I feel like I'm a beginner rider I'm huffing and puffing so much). If I knew how to upload a video here/photo I would so you can all see. I am unsure how to edit my original post, so I should have listed his supplements:

He gets on top of his 2kg per day concentrate and roughage:

200ml of oil
A herbal mix for vitality and coat (Honeyvale herbs)
Joint supplement (prevention better than cure)
Electrolytes on very hot days

He does drink a huge amount of water.

I shall definitely go and look for your old threads.
 
Do high oil or alcar, not both. The alcar was discovered when trying to sort out EPSM horses that can't take a high calorie diet.

Be aware that there is L carnetine and acetyl L carnetine. You need the alcar.

Let us know how you get on?

PS water consumption is a symptom because they sweat a lot with EPSM. But did your vet test for kidney function? Kidney disease is quite rare in horses but if his blood is full of urea he won't be full of energy.
 
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ycbm said:
Do high oil or alcar, not both. The alcar was discovered when trying to sort out EPSM horses that can't take a high calorie diet.

Be aware that there is L carnetine and acetyl L carnetine. You need the alcar.

Let us know how you get on?
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I most definitely will. Will try taking him off the oil and putting on alcar. Thank you.
 
How big is he? 10g is supposed to be the dose, but I do feed mine 12g because neither of them are exactly small. I suspect with his breeding yours is a decent size, so perhaps try 12g

As a price guide, I paid £27 a kilo for my last lot, but it has since been available mail order for less than £20.

DON'T feed vitamin E with selenium in, it will be too much selenium.
 
ycbm said:
How big is he? 10g is supposed to be the dose, but I do feed mine 12g because neither of them are exactly small. I suspect with his breeding yours is a decent size, so perhaps try 12g

As a price guide, I paid £27 a kilo for my last lot, but it has since been available mail order for less than £20.

DON'T feed vitamin E with selenium in, it will be too much selenium.
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He is 167cm as of 4 days ago and aprox 550kg.
 
The oil/ALCAR thing...the way that I understand EPSM (I am v non science) is that when the EPSM horse digests starch, the process goes a bit wrong & it also produces a byproduct which is v similar to lactic acid which floods the muscles & makes them stiff. As if the horse had done a massive workout the day before. The high oil diet works by BLOCKING the uptake channels so that the bad stuff can't get into the muscles; the ALCAR works by making the muscles RELEASE the bad stuff. Therefore you should do one or the other (as someone has already said) as the two approaches kind of cancel each other out...?

Sorry for the v simplistic explanation...it took me a long while to get to the bottom of it all...the amount of science I understand would go on the back of a stamp...

T x
 
I think that's saying pretty much the same thing as I understood, but in different words. EPSM horses can't use carbs properly and store polysaccharides in the muscles. If you feed them fat and reduce the carbs to a minimum, they use the oil as muscle energy instead, so avoid the build up of polysaccharides. The alcar is a breakdown product of an amino acid that the EPSM horse can't produce. If given it, the horse can then use its food energy properly, though they still need high low sugar, but that just good feeding practice anyway.

That's where I got to. Anyone got better explanation? It's such a new disease, we are still learning.also, for me, definitely a spectrum disorder. I have two (out of two!), both caught early, both very mild, easy to manage and 'normal' on alcar. Without alcar one will barely move and the other runs around like a headless chicken :) and both go absolutely solid in the bum muscles.
 
So nearly 17hh. I wonder if it's simply a maturity issue, and if he just needs time to be allowed to slowly mature over the next year or so.
 
Just wondered if you have tried a very basic test, i know you mention that back etc if fine but have you compared both on and off the lunge

loose on the lunge, with out tack, then with tack and then with a rider and tack and if you are brave enough rider and no tack.

if there is no issues with saddle etc all should look the same with forwards and engagement, get someone to video this and compare. if there is a marked difference you should see, don't forget both reins!
 
amymay said:
So nearly 17hh. I wonder if it's simply a maturity issue, and if he just needs time to be allowed to slowly mature over the next year or so.
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My thoughts too - he's big & young (is he 4 some time in 2016?) and been in work for a year jumping, schooling etc. - maybe he just needs a little time??
 
catembi said:
Mine was like this. ISH from an immaculate SJ pedigree, siblings competing internationally, at one Hickstead derby his half brother came 2nd & his full brother retired after the water jump... I bought him at 4 when he was very slightly stuffy, and the photo that made me go & see him was him jumping 1 m 25. We started competing, got to Disco/1.05, he gradually got stuffier & stuffier so I did all the usual, e.g. dropped him down to unaff, fast hacking, took him hunting etc. Long story short - it turned out to be EPSM & I eventually sold him as a happy hacker.

I sent off some mane for testing - it was -ve but there are 2 types of EPSM & the test can only pick up one of them. Also, the muscle biopsy can give a false -ve as it's not always the same muscles that are affected, & sometimes there's not enough damage to show up until the horse is 12. (When I was going thru it all, someone whose vet was an EPSM specialist told me this.)

Does this sound familiar: v stuffy to start with, first trot v shuffly, if you walk again then trot again, each subsequent trot is a little bit freer. If so, try the high oil diet - you will get a dramatic improvement within a day or 2 if it's EPSM. (If you want all the details of our saga, all my old threads/posts are probably on here somewhere - it would be around 2009-2011 & the horse's name was Adrian, if you want to search.)

T x
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As I understand it the muscle biopsy needs to be read by someone who knows what they are looking for - which is not muscle damage. The cells of a horse with PSSM are a different shape from a normal one, or from a horse with RER. It can even diagnose other muscle myopathies too. However it's only as good as who is doing the reading of the biopsy. Sending it to a specialist in muscle myopathies in America where they are miles and miles ahead of us in the UK, would be my preference where possible. Also getting their advice about the exactly protocol for taking it too.

In a PSSM horse the horse incorrectly stores glycogen instead of burning it as energy, hence the name polysaccharide storage myopathy.

What exactly is the horse being fed OP? List absolutely everything that goes in his mouth.
 
Vet informed me that PSSM and EPSM are genetic and there is no way that he has this gene. It is also prevalent in only a small number of horses.

As for food he is on:

2kg of 12% Warmblood Meal per day (1kg per meal)
1 cup of 25% All Time Balancer per day (1/2 a cup per meal)
Oat Hay adlib

Supps:

100ml pure sunflower oil
Honeyvale Herbs Vitality Mix
Honeyvale Herbs Fenushine
Endeavon Flex-O Joint
All of the above fed in evening feed
 
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TheChestnutThing said:
Vet informed me that PSSM and EPSM are genetic and there is no way that he has this gene. It is also prevalent in only a small number of horses.
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How does your vet know he does not have this gene? Has he DNA tested him for the one there is a test for? Does he even know that EPSM and PSSM are two acronyms for the same disease? It sounds like he thinks it's two separate ones.

It's much more common than he thinks and can be in anything that has any draft blood at all. As a warmblood, pyours almost certainly will. He needs to do some CPD training!
 
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ycbm said:
How does your vet know he does not have this gene? Has he DNA tested him for the one there is a test for? Does he even know that EPSM and PSSM are two acronyms for the same disease? It sounds like he thinks it's two separate ones.

It's much more common than he thinks and can be in anything that has any draft blood at all. He needs to do some CPD training!
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Both parents are registered with stud book (here and in Europe) and therefore being studbook registered (which they require tests for) and having also had previous offspring he does not have these conditions. So these must be ruled out. My vet I use is from the largest and best Equine Hospital in my city. I did not not only converse with him, I also conversed with the vet of his dam.
 
TheChestnutThing said:
Both parents are registered with stud book (here and in Europe) and therefore being studbook registered (which they require tests for) and having also had previous offspring he does not have these conditions. So these must be ruled out. My vet I use is from the largest and best Equine Hospital in my city. I did not not only converse with him, I also conversed with the vet of his dam.
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Look, it's up to you, try alcar or not, your choice.

But stud books do not do muscle biopsies or DNA tests for EPSM, do they? It may never have shown in a brood mare our breeding stallion, some horses get worse with age and maybe they stopped working before it showed. I think Ffion Winnie, like me, believes that this condition is massively under diagnosed and just put down to laziness, lack of balance or bad temperament.

How rare can it be? I have two ridden horses and they both have it! In retrospect, before it was known about as a disease, I've had at least one other in the past.

Consider it or not, as you choose, but your vet doesn't seem to know enough about the disease to be giving you best advice. It also beats me that you wouldn't just try a cheap and side effect free supplement to see if it helps, but again, that's entirely your choice.
 
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