Working at liberty... A few suggestions needed.

Queenbee

Queenbee

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I was talking the other day about lunging Ben over jumps and someone asked me if I loose school him over jumps... My response was that he goes a bit nutsy galloping, bucking snorting, just erratic really.

Now I've been thinking and I really think it would help if we did some work at liberty in the school, firmed up our bond a bit more, got him really listening to me, I think that this would undoubtedly calm him down in the school.

Now my query is, does anyone have any suggestions for how to safely get him past the erratic stage, I don't want to have him do himself an injury in the school. Would you start loose and have him come to you or use a rope halter and a line. I've done liberty before... Well it kind of just happened with ebs, but we could do it in a school or field. However, her attitude was different... Ben behaves like he's on the wall of death and when he bucks he has no spacial awareness, he could do it right next to me or at the other end of the school. So, any ideas or suggestions for how to go ahead with it with a horse like this?
 
This is a new one to me! Never heard of working at liberty?

Do you mean free/loose schooling?

If you want your horse to listen to you more personally I would do lots of inhand work, lunging and working on voice control, build up your bond working closely before testing it in a bigger space.
 
dianchi said:
This is a new one to me! Never heard of working at liberty?

Do you mean free/loose schooling?

If you want your horse to listen to you more personally I would do lots of inhand work, lunging and working on voice control, build up your bond working closely before testing it in a bigger space.
Click to expand...

No, not loose schooling, although I do believe that it will positively affect his attitude to traditional loose schooling, on the lunge he is fab, he responds to voice commands really well and to body language, off the lunge he turns into a delinquent. Basically I want that trust bond, I want him to do things without being on the end of a lunge line. With ebony, we would work together, she would respond to me, when I walked, she walked, when I ran she ran, she would canter next to me if I changed the tempo of my run, I could stop dead from that and she would too, I could point at a jump and she would jump it, our movements were completely in synch. That's what I'm looking for, I want him to be more aware of me, but not because I have a lunge line on him, he has to be free to do this because he wants to. A bit unconventional for some, but I think it will really benefit him.
 
But to get to the point you describe in post #3 surely you need to go through the steps described in post #2.
 
See my loose schooling/free schooling sounds like what you want, accept that I do it on voice and none of this running stuff!

I would still say you need to do close work to build the bond before attempting what you want.
 
Honestly, I just let mine do the wall of death thing, then work him once he's had his fun. Not much help to you, but theres no point asking mine questions til he's got the bounces out, then he settles and does all the things you said ebony did. I close my eyes to tge prospect of injury..he's such a loon in the field that I've given up stressing!
 
For me I let mine get it out of his system; well, I only needed to once and after that he hasn't bothered! I then 'claim' a corner as mine so if B tries to get in my corner I shoe him away and after about 10 mins of this, he is ready to be loose schooled ie getting him walking/trotting/cantering/halting round the school through my voice / body language / using lunging whip as if lunging him. I haven't managed to do poles or jumps yet - he's still new to me so that will happen once we're more in sync.

with regards yours - how would you feel if you stood outside the school to let him have his funny five minutes? I'm sure he wouldn't hurt himself, they're very aware of their space.

the next stage for me is to do more in-hand work and to do some long reining too which will help with the above.
 
Queenbee - glad to hear you are interested in working with your horse at liberty, I started my liberty journey last year and it is such fun. Since doing this to my group, including a Shetland who is so cute, I can move them all around and groom them and get them into the yard without head collars. Eventually I aim to be able to get them to circle, and perform some additional movements such as the half- pass but we are a long way off that just now.


The first step is to make a connection with your horse and this takes as long as it takes horses do not have a time table. You need to have alot of patience and you need to be able to observe your horse's reactions and intentions.

1. I assume you will be using an arena ? although you can do this in the field, so you take a chair and a book and your horse into the arena/field.

2. You let him loose, just undo the headcollar and see what he does.

3. if he runs away from you, which he probably will, no matter, just sit on your chair and read. The chair is used to begin with as you may have to wait some time and it is more comfortable sitting in a chair. You read and wait until he returns to you. If he comes up let him smell you but do not touch him. You can then get up take your chair and park somewhere else.

4. To begin with you can do this for half an hour moving each time. The idea is to reduce the length of time he stays away from you. So that when you move away he follows. When he does this you are ready to move onto the next stage.

When he lingers with you you want to be able to stroke him and move around him and he should stand still. If he doesn't want you do do this then you just walk away.

When he wants to spend time with you, you try again to move his feet, backing up, moving his hind quarters for example.

There is more to it but the aim is you are giving the horse a chance to want to be with you which is the connection you need to make so you can then move onto the subsequent stages.

I can send you a link to a very good site you might be interested in, if you PM me.




It isn't for everyone of course but so rewarding.
 
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So basically when 'loose schooling' ben has no respect for your personal space and therefore thinks it appropriate and ok to buck, be silly, push, shove into your personal space.

I think you need to define your personal space.....let him be silly, run around, go to the wall of death....but do this in his space! Then once he does this in his space, you push him when he wants to stop the silliness...make it no fun for him....the 'fun' is stopping and being with you

But you only let him follow you and be near you when he shows that he is listening to you...ear on you etc.

I did this a lot with my horse when we could do nothing else......it was great fun when we could go round the school, changing direction, pace etc....best bit was when we ended up 'cantering' and then I could ask him to stop with just raising my hand.

To be honest it's all about the partnership between you and the horse: dominance, trust and respect on both sides!

edit: very interesting post above...... Two completely different ways of reaching one goal!
 
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jemima*askin said:
But to get to the point you describe in post #3 surely you need to go through the steps described in post #2.
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Not necessarily, it's not about teaching a horse to work with you at the end of the rope and then chucking the rope away, it's about developing a relationship and giving the horse the space and freedom to do this at his own pace with no force whatsoever, I suppose some people may us the method described in post two, but it's not how I do it generally.
 
dianchi said:
See my loose schooling/free schooling sounds like what you want, accept that I do it on voice and none of this running stuff!

I would still say you need to do close work to build the bond before attempting what you want.
Click to expand...

No, whilst I think it will have an impact on his loose schooling, liberty is not loose schooling, it's about a partnership not schooling.
 
TandD said:
So basically when 'loose schooling' ben has no respect for your personal space and therefore thinks it appropriate and ok to buck, be silly, push, shove into your personal space.

I think you need to define your personal space.....let him be silly, run around, go to the wall of death....but do this in his space! Then once he does this in his space, you push him when he wants to stop the silliness...make it no fun for him....the 'fun' is stopping and being with you

But you only let him follow you and be near you when he shows that he is listening to you...ear on you etc.

I did this a lot with my horse when we could do nothing else......it was great fun when we could go round the school, changing direction, pace etc....best bit was when we ended up 'cantering' and then I could ask him to stop with just raising my hand.

To be honest it's all about the partnership between you and the horse: dominance, trust and respect on both sides!

edit: very interesting post above...... Two completely different ways of reaching one goal!
Click to expand...


No, the primary issue is he bombs around like a psycho on the wall of death at breakneck speed, generally he is respectful of space, but when he gets like this he just kind of loses focus...
 
KatPT said:
Honestly, I just let mine do the wall of death thing, then work him once he's had his fun. Not much help to you, but theres no point asking mine questions til he's got the bounces out, then he settles and does all the things you said ebony did. I close my eyes to tge prospect of injury..he's such a loon in the field that I've given up stressing!
Click to expand...

doriangrey said:
Well, how you got close to Ebony - couldn't you do this with Ben?
Click to expand...


With ebony I just let her do her thing, we would actually normally have a ride or a loose schooling session, then she would just come to me and we would do liberty, I suppose she liked to burn some energy off before liberty but she did it in a far more controlled way.
 
Worldiscomplete said:
For me I let mine get it out of his system; well, I only needed to once and after that he hasn't bothered! I then 'claim' a corner as mine so if B tries to get in my corner I shoe him away and after about 10 mins of this, he is ready to be loose schooled ie getting him walking/trotting/cantering/halting round the school through my voice / body language / using lunging whip as if lunging him. I haven't managed to do poles or jumps yet - he's still new to me so that will happen once we're more in sync.

with regards yours - how would you feel if you stood outside the school to let him have his funny five minutes? I'm sure he wouldn't hurt himself, they're very aware of their space.

the next stage for me is to do more in-hand work and to do some long reining too which will help with the above.
Click to expand...

texel said:
Queenbee - glad to hear you are interested in working with your horse at liberty, I started my liberty journey last year and it is such fun. Since doing this to my group, including a Shetland who is so cute, I can move them all around and groom them and get them into the yard without head collars. Eventually I aim to be able to get them to circle, and perform some additional movements such as the half- pass but we are a long way off that just now.


The first step is to make a connection with your horse and this takes as long as it takes horses do not have a time table. You need to have alot of patience and you need to be able to observe your horse's reactions and intentions.

1. I assume you will be using an arena ? although you can do this in the field, so you take a chair and a book and your horse into the arena/field.

2. You let him loose, just undo the headcollar and see what he does.

3. if he runs away from you, which he probably will, no matter, just sit on your chair and read. The chair is used to begin with as you may have to wait some time and it is more comfortable sitting in a chair. You read and wait until he returns to you. If he comes up let him smell you but do not touch him. You can then get up take your chair and park somewhere else.

4. To begin with you can do this for half an hour moving each time. The idea is to reduce the length of time he stays away from you. So that when you move away he follows. When he does this you are ready to move onto the next stage.

When he lingers with you you want to be able to stroke him and move around him and he should stand still. If he doesn't want you do do this then you just walk away.

When he wants to spend time with you, you try again to move his feet, backing up, moving his hind quarters for example.

There is more to it but the aim is you are giving the horse a chance to want to be with you which is the connection you need to make so you can then move onto the subsequent stages.

I can send you a link to a very good site you might be interested in, if you PM me.




It isn't for everyone of course but so rewarding.
Click to expand...

Thank you, some good suggestions there that I can work with, I think they may suit Ben. Texel if you could pm me that link I'd really appreciate it. I so miss working like this with my mare, it was so humbling to have such a bond and I think it will really help Ben. :)
 
Queenbee said:
Not necessarily, it's not about teaching a horse to work with you at the end of the rope and then chucking the rope away, it's about developing a relationship and giving the horse the space and freedom to do this at his own pace with no force whatsoever, I suppose some people may us the method described in post two, but it's not how I do it generally.
Click to expand...

oh pardon me I didn't realise you have an established way you "do it generally".
 
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texel said:
Queenbee - glad to hear you are interested in working with your horse at liberty, I started my liberty journey last year and it is such fun. Since doing this to my group, including a Shetland who is so cute, I can move them all around and groom them and get them into the yard without head collars. Eventually I aim to be able to get them to circle, and perform some additional movements such as the half- pass but we are a long way off that just now.


The first step is to make a connection with your horse and this takes as long as it takes horses do not have a time table. You need to have alot of patience and you need to be able to observe your horse's reactions and intentions.

1. I assume you will be using an arena ? although you can do this in the field, so you take a chair and a book and your horse into the arena/field.

2. You let him loose, just undo the headcollar and see what he does.

3. if he runs away from you, which he probably will, no matter, just sit on your chair and read. The chair is used to begin with as you may have to wait some time and it is more comfortable sitting in a chair. You read and wait until he returns to you. If he comes up let him smell you but do not touch him. You can then get up take your chair and park somewhere else.

4. To begin with you can do this for half an hour moving each time. The idea is to reduce the length of time he stays away from you. So that when you move away he follows. When he does this you are ready to move onto the next stage.

When he lingers with you you want to be able to stroke him and move around him and he should stand still. If he doesn't want you do do this then you just walk away.

When he wants to spend time with you, you try again to move his feet, backing up, moving his hind quarters for example.

There is more to it but the aim is you are giving the horse a chance to want to be with you which is the connection you need to make so you can then move onto the subsequent stages.

I can send you a link to a very good site you might be interested in, if you PM me.




It isn't for everyone of course but so rewarding.
Click to expand...

That's really interesting - thanks!

I sort of, by accident, do something a little similar - admittedly, not in a sand school environment, but in his stable. I quite often just 'sit' and just spend some time with P (I sound like a right nutter :D ) - I've never moved my spot though, I might try that. I might try this in the sand school too, as obviously even loose in the stable, he's still confined.
 
I have to admit, I'm a little confused. Please someone explain the difference between loose schooling and at liberty. Is it like join up where they follow you around, or like parelli, or even clicker training? Or does your horse generally like to be with you in any case. What is the difference in the training technique is what I think I'm asking. Maybe I'm having a 'doh' moment!

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jemima*askin said:
oh pardon me I didn't realise you have an established way you "do it generally".
Click to expand...

Goodness me, spikey much? I'm sure you realise I'm talking of theory and reason behind whatever method is employed. And to me, and my understanding of liberty the method described is at odd with the theory and desired outcome of liberty. So, perhaps not an established "way" more of an established understanding
 
You can't work a horse at liberty 'to get a better relationship.'
You have to have a good relationship with your horse IN ORDER TO work at liberty.

It takes a long time and lots of discipline (of the handler) to achieve.
You need to start by teaching the horse voice commands. That means that EVERY TIME you give the horse a command or sign, you back it up with a voice command or whistle. I find a whistle helpful for stop and go.
My horse will stop or slow down a pace with a 'high-low' whistle, and go or move up a pace with a 'low-high' whistle. But you have to do it every. single. time. Even when bringing in or riding.

You then need to teach the horse to stand still until told to move. I do this by standing the horse with the lead on the floor, and walking all the way around him, patting him all over as I go. Then go the other way round. If he moves, go back to his head, stand him still again, and start again.

Then begin to move away and go back. When this is ingrained, you can start to teach him to come to call.
You use a long line and walk away from him, then whistle/call him with his walk on command, but add a new command for 'come here.' Eventually, you can drop the 'walk on' command and just use your 'come here' command.

Then you start to walk round him and pick feet up, always with a voice command and touch piaffe/schooling whip, until he'll pick a foot up by you pointing and giving command.

Always walk at his shoulder, even when leading in etc as this is where he should be at liberty unless sent away.

And NEVER EVER let him have a hooley round where you want to train him.

Training a horse to work at liberty takes a LOT of time and patience but is so much fun and really addictive. I am a total old-school traditionalist but I started this when I was pregnant and not riding and I love it. My horse will now walk and trot at my side, stop for any length of time, come to call and bow (but he still needs the headcollar to bow).

It's great fun but, like I say, a big undertaking to do properly. I had some v good professional help and wouldn't have managed it otherwise.

ETA It has also helped his ridden work no end. I had problems backing him and really stepped up the 'liberty' work after that. It helped so much to have genuinely reliable voice commands for 'go' 'stop' 'slow down' and 'move over.'
 
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You might find this lady's stuff interesting too :)

www.equinelibertysports.com

I just made up my own approach by accident, I suppose. I started off teaching "come" and "stop", "back up". Then I added in "follow me" (not voice commands, mine are all gestures), and after a while "circle me", "move front end sideways away from me", "move back end sideways away from me", "whole horse sideways" (and although work in progress, move sideways *towards* me).

Then I just put them all together. Own horse does all of these everywhere - in field (training was done in field as we don't have a school) and out of field (he has headcollar and lead rope on outside field but although I hold the rope he just follows the cues). The other horses in the field will all do "come", "back up" and "follow" - invaluable for moving horses around to different areas of field etc. when you don't have a leadrope with you.

If horse was bombing around (arena is obviously rather exciting in your case), I'd probably choose to start training somewhere the horse didn't have previous associations with e.g. loose schooling.

It is fun and worthwhile, and you can use it for e.g. horse agility etc. Here's some weave cones (this was two years ago when we just started this, and yes, he missed one out ;) ).
[video]http://s2.photobucket.com/user/seventines/media/Bending.mp4.html[/video]
 
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Thank you... Bright bay, that's helpful. I'm thinking that I may dig my clicker out and utilise this in the liberty training, when he was two we did a bit of clicker training and he responded really well, it really helped him to focus on me and control himself, perhaps the clicker training will help him with this.
 
Clicker is great for training the cues - but save it for when horse is feeling really calm and relaxed, as bolting it on to when horse is feeling very excited and bouncy isn't a good combination ;) You can train most of the stuff just with scratches (have done with this a yearling), and it helps calm them down.
 
Brightbay said:
Clicker is great for training the cues - but save it for when horse is feeling really calm and relaxed, as bolting it on to when horse is feeling very excited and bouncy isn't a good combination ;) You can train most of the stuff just with scratches (have done with this a yearling), and it helps calm them down.
Click to expand...

My thoughts are (it may be mad) but that when he knows he is clicker training he goes into a zone, focuses on me and tries real hard to control his behaviour. If I start the clicker training with something simple before we enter the school and keep it going, it may be enough to focus him and stop his wall of death behaviour from happening, can work on just having him calm and loose in the school and build it up from there over time.
 
To chuck my 2pennies worth in - because I teach liberty!
There seems a big confusion between liberty, loose schooling and join-up.
Loose schooling is really only directed work at a distance eg over jumps .
Join up is one way of acheiving the first beginnings of liberty work.But if you re doing the Monty stuff there seems to be little progression from that .
With liberty I m building up a bond , or dealing with 'remedial' horses that would take much work on the ground with the handler getting pulled about. have to say you need to have had experience of liberty work before you work with horses like this! I usually teach to N H students - many of whom have learnt the older parelli way - so lots of whip flailing and fast work.
I hope to do the early work at walk only - if the horse whizzes round I dont encourage that , or ever punish. Always build on the Draw - that is the horse wanting to come and be with you , stay with you , and learn to do stuff with you. Driving the horse will get you so far , but never the willingness required . I hate to see horses worked at liberty with their ears back and a sour expression - to me thats messing with their heads , and more about people showing off.
Liberty work isnt really that hard - horses will usually come to stand with you , and follow or be 'led' within the first lesson. It can be emotional though, as horses reveal their true thoughts about their owners!
 
It like with a child, can't expect them to concentrate until they have had a bit of fun and lost their rambunctious energy.
I would let him in the school, leave it myself until he is ready to concentrate.
I also have found with both mine, the more often you do work them the quicker they calm down.
 
I like liberty, it's an acid test of the relationship or bond that you have with your horses. When you take off the halter the horse has the choice. Does he want to stay with you or does he want to put some distance between you.
Liberty really tests the connection between horse and man. Whether you play with one horse or multiple horses, on the ground or from horseback, it's rewarding and fun.
 
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