Working dogs in pet homes

Moobli

Moobli

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Why do some people buy a pup from working lines/parents/lineage, do nothing with it and then wonder why they can't control it, it eats their furniture, barks at everything, pulls them off their feet, chases its tail constantly etc etc etc. :(

It is an age old problem I am sure, but is at the forefront of my mind today as I have seen a couple of pups from a good working litter go into pet homes that are struggling with their energy levels and they appear to lack the experience/knowledge to be able to engage, stimulate and train their whirling dervishes. One pup is constantly chasing his tail and another is already wearing an electric collar (at 16 weeks).

The two litters of working border collies we have bred in the past 15 years were all sold to good working homes but I am sure there would have been no problems with experienced search & rescue, agility homes etc. I am not sure how they would have fared in purely pet homes though.
 
I am the first to admit I would not be able to fulfil the needs of a high drive/working lines dog. I don't work my dogs and I don't participate in dog sports. We, pet owners, need to know our limitations.

You touched on something that concerns me - shock collars.

I know of people who use them and it appals me. Woman with Beagle pup who zaps it because the dog has no recall. Another who has a working lines mal and the owner cannot fulfil its needs, waste of an excellent dog. Another is a collie who keeps running at other dogs and has bitten, the collar hasn't stopped her. What have these dogs learnt - exactly nothing or they wouldn't need to keep wearing the collar and getting zapped.

The problem isn't lack of an electric shock any more than a headache is caused by lack of an aspirin. The problem is an inadequate owner.

When I say I know of, these are not friends, just people I see when I am out and about
 
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I thought this when researching to get my collie, and when reality checking myself as to if I could cope. The number of collies I saw on sites like pets4homes being rehomed at 3-18months was insane, all stating that they ‘don’t have the time to give him the exercise he deserves’. It made me really sad. For Christ’s sake, research before you buy! Yes I have a collie and no I’m not a working home, but I went for one that is not from sharp working lines like my old girl, I got help in my decision from a collie breeder and expert who is not linked to the breeder I went for, and you can be damn sure I got my life in order to make sure he gets the stimulation he deserves. And I’m working my butt off learning how to train him. We are very active but I can only imagine the frustration of a collie in a home where it is walked once a day and gets limited training. My pup loves the training I am doing with him and learns so fast. But even my OH admitted he thought a collie was a collie and didn’t know why I was being so careful in my choice. He would happily have gone for a high drive working dog without knowing what he was in for, and maybe would have ended up with a dog he couldn’t manage, so he is quite happy I intervened.
 
amymay said:
Probably because they're cheap.

Why do breeders allow them to go to pet homes?
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depending on the breed, not all can go to working homes just as not all dogs can go to show homes. Mine wasn't a lot cheaper than a bench bred retriever. I fully admit that he keeps me busy ;) but god, never had a dog as brilliant. I'm not sure I would have another-in 10 or so years I may not have the energy but I wish I had discovered them 20 years ago.
 
i have had dogs all of my life and would never want a working dog as i know i wouldnt be able to give it the type of home it needs. even when i was younger and alot more active i wouldnt be able to give it the stimulation it would need. on a different note, i met some people today with a huge young mastiff which was on the lead and as soon as they saw my dogs they pulled the lead really tight and wouldnt let her even sniff noses with mine, i had put my little terrier on the lead as he is a bit overfriendly with other dogs.. the people were almost hysterical , and what i cant understand is why they would walk a dog in a busy park on easter sat!!! surely they must have expected other dogs to be there....
 
Trials bred labs and spaniels are another example. My brother owns my Tawny's sister and she keeps him busy - a pet home, and a fairly sofa orientated bunch at that. The eldest daughter now does flyball with her and they both love it and are doing really well. The breeder has sold dogs that are successful at canicross, agility and flyball, as well as mainly more 'normal' trialling or picking up homes. At least retrieving type breeds are happy carrying socks, sticks and balls. It is not so easy to keep a driven herding dog happy.
I do think there is nothing sadder than pet 'working type' border collies, who are just obsessed with cars, birds, moving things and are so uptight and anxious.
 
splashgirl45 said:
i have had dogs all of my life and would never want a working dog as i know i wouldnt be able to give it the type of home it needs. even when i was younger and alot more active i wouldnt be able to give it the stimulation it would need. on a different note, i met some people today with a huge young mastiff which was on the lead and as soon as they saw my dogs they pulled the lead really tight and wouldnt let her even sniff noses with mine, i had put my little terrier on the lead as he is a bit overfriendly with other dogs.. the people were almost hysterical , and what i cant understand is why they would walk a dog in a busy park on easter sat!!! surely they must have expected other dogs to be there....
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That poor mastiff willend up being reactive, why don't people let them socialise?
 
skinnydipper said:
I am the first to admit I would not be able to fulfil the needs of a high drive/working lines dog. I don't work my dogs and I don't participate in dog sports. We, pet owners, need to know our limitations.

You touched on something that concerns me - shock collars.

I know of people who use them and it appals me. Woman with Beagle pup who zaps it because the dog has no recall. Another who has a working lines mal and the owner cannot fulfil its needs, waste of an excellent dog. Another is a collie who keeps running at other dogs and has bitten, the collar hasn't stopped her. What have these dogs learnt - exactly nothing or they wouldn't need to keep wearing the collar and getting zapped.

The problem isn't lack of an electric shock any more than a headache is caused by lack of an aspirin. The problem is an inadequate owner.

When I say I know of, these are not friends, just people I see when I am out and about
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I totally agree that shock collars are unnecessary and a lazy way of training - not to mention the possible damage using such a device is likely to be having on the essential bond between handler and dog.
 
amymay said:
Probably because cheap.

Why do breeders allow them to go to pet homes?
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Not all working bred pups are cheaper than their show/pet bred counterparts.

As to the second question, there could be a wide variety of reasons I guess. Some might be that the prospective owners lied about their experience or what they were going to do with the dog (I have seen that happen a few times), some breeders simply don't care where their pups end up, and some might feel an active pet home would be ok. There will be a variety of temperaments and drives in all litters and not all working bred pups will be suitable for working homes, but then I feel the breeder should be striving for the best possible non-working home (ie the owner taking part in some other activity or being particularly active).

Less dogs being bred, more discerning breeders and owners doing research into a suitable breed for their lifestyle would be the ideal.
 
BBP said:
I thought this when researching to get my collie, and when reality checking myself as to if I could cope. The number of collies I saw on sites like pets4homes being rehomed at 3-18months was insane, all stating that they ‘don’t have the time to give him the exercise he deserves’. It made me really sad. For Christ’s sake, research before you buy! Yes I have a collie and no I’m not a working home, but I went for one that is not from sharp working lines like my old girl, I got help in my decision from a collie breeder and expert who is not linked to the breeder I went for, and you can be damn sure I got my life in order to make sure he gets the stimulation he deserves. And I’m working my butt off learning how to train him. We are very active but I can only imagine the frustration of a collie in a home where it is walked once a day and gets limited training. My pup loves the training I am doing with him and learns so fast. But even my OH admitted he thought a collie was a collie and didn’t know why I was being so careful in my choice. He would happily have gone for a high drive working dog without knowing what he was in for, and maybe would have ended up with a dog he couldn’t manage, so he is quite happy I intervened.
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I certainly think education and owners doing their research would help. As you say, your boyfriend and lots of other people don't even realise there are different lines within the same breed.
 
I don't think tail chasing is anything to do with working or show or pet lines, I've seen it in all, it's a weakness/compulsion and I've seen it working line dogs gone to active working homes and still develop it. It's a curse.

I agree breeders can be as culpable as purchasers. Working line litters should be booked before they are born and ideally even before the mating takes place IMO.
Scouting around for homes after the fact is part of the problem.
 
My pup is a "working dog" in that he's a farm-bred terrier from ratting parents ... I thought I would be fine because we have an active GSD x Rottie. OMG the difference; this pup (now 13 months) has no OFF button. when everyone is good and exhausted from doing scent training and tricks and agility and ball and play-fighting, we all slump down for a nap. GSD X is out for the count. Husband and I are out for the count. Pup sleeps 20 minutes then Piiiing: ready to go for Round 500. His arousal threshold is extremely low and it's taken it's toll on me, anxiety and lifestyle wise! Thankfully, we have had the best trainers in puppy class - my main trainer breeds and works collies, so she's given us spot-on advice from the very beginning. Because of this, the pup is a well-adjusted chap (mostly); he has his jobs which he loves and he has learnt to settle on command with a kong, but you can tell he's not happy about it. He'd rather be on the go go go. The plus side of all this is that he's slept through the night since Day 1 lol. Next time, I want a big floofball pet.
 
I have no papers for Mrs Spaniel so I don't know if I got lucky with her lines or what. I do know that she was up for grabs as she had been bought as a lap dog and when their marriage broke up, neither wanted her as they couldn't cope with her energy at 11 months old.
I had severe doubts about if I could cope, working full time, active dog in London etc, but overruled by my ex and brother as we all lived together.

I think she's a pretty easy laidback dog really, but friends that I walk with look in horror when I tell them I make time for two hours a day during the week, that I do double that on weekends.
I reckon the minimum I can get away with is an hour and a half otherwise she attacks the post, digs the carpet, eats shoes and is a whirling monster to live with because she needs an outlet for the energy. I have no doubts that I would struggle if I wasn't so lucky with three parks within walking distance, without the yard to take her too, so she can hack out with me and the horses and flyball has been an absolute godsend tiring her physically and mentally.

Regularly during the week I walk in a field and have made friends there with people with beagles, other WCS, BC's, even cockerpoo's who daren't let them off leads, complain tirelessly about them and their "quirky" ways but only take them for a 20 minute walk on a sunny day once a day, when I suggest taking them to other parks for a change of scenery, as I firmly believe dogs get bored just doing the same walk day in, day out or taking them out more often, they rapidly find excuses not to do so.
They compliment me on Mrs Spaniel being a wellbehaved little dog (although she can have her brat moments) but they don't realise the work that I do to make both our lives easier.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I don't think tail chasing is anything to do with working or show or pet lines, I've seen it in all, it's a weakness/compulsion and I've seen it working line dogs gone to active working homes and still develop it. It's a curse.
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Do you think it is related to stress or over excitement? One of my dogs was spinning/tail chasing constantly in the rescue environment (she would also express her anal glands). Once she settled here it stopped, it didn't take very long at all as I remember though it was about 12 years or so ago so the memory is not fresh.
 
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Unfortunately I think the other reason people buy dogs from working lines is that there seems to be a certain amount of status (not the best word but can't think of a better one) associated with it.

I think it's quite a regional thing round here (as I didn't notice it before coming here), to own a cocker/springer spaniel or lab from working lines so you can proudly declare this to all acquaintances.

I did have a kelpie as a pet and he was very good (though very bouncy), and because he had such great recall and walk to heel (or hoof :p), he was very easy to give plenty of exercise to. He would do at least 10 miles to my 1 - it's so nice being able to let a dog run because you know you can always get them back at the drop of a hat. Trying to get him to eat more than once every other day was a mission though :o
 
Absolutely. And it should tell you how the dog deals with stress. And if that is the way it deals with stress, I wouldn't consider it as a working or breeding animal.

(Thats for SD, forgot to quote).
 
My two are both working bred but I either got lucky or did something right because they are both just as happy having a duvet day as they are a day out on the fells! To be honest though they are rising 8 and just turned 6 and we did a lot more with them, agility, regular fell running etc, when they were juveniles! They are still fit and active now (vet is always full of praise about how fit they are which makes me wonder how little other people must do with their dogs!) But they don't get hours every day.
 
I was lucky enough to be given my WCS, his breeder was let down by a prospective owner at the last minute...I wasn't going to have anymore dogs after my terrier but there was something special about this little guy.

I had never had a gundog before, although I was impressed by the demos at the local game fair...TBH I never thought I could ever train a dog like that! When I got Billy I took him to the village hall type puppy classes and we did ok but I wasn't totally happy as it was, to me all about bribing the dog with food. I was under no illusion that he was a working dog that needed his mind occupying, we tried scent classes but he (and I ) got bored as the classes were big and we only got a couple of goes in the hour.

The lady who owns his dad put me in touch with a great gundog trainer and we haven't looked back...it's been hard work and at times I have despaired and at other times have been mega proud of how far we have come! Even if I don't go to a proper shoot I can still "work" him, I hide dummies in hedgelines, send him for retrieves, have him flushing birds on the farm, he's even picked up on pigeon when the guys were doing some pest control on the crops, he picks up feather and fur and we are having fun and he's doing what he was bred for. I love watching him hunt!

He is essentially a pet, he lives in the house. I am lucky he has an off switch and hasn't destroyed anything! I can get out and enjoy long walks with him, but he needs a serious amount of mental stimulation to keep him calm, gundog training does that nicely. I train on walks, sit, stay, memory retrieve etc.
 
Does it depend on the breed and / or lines maybe? My GSPs are all from working lines but they would be perfectly sane and sensible as pets as long as they had sufficient exercise.

We bred a litter two years ago, some went to working homes, some as pets. They are all athletic dogs for sure and we made sure the homes were active but didn't feel the need for them all to go to be workers.

4 went to working homes, we kept one and he will be worked, the other 2 went to families and go out as running / cycling companions on a daily basis.
 
Didn’t we have this question discussed really recently?

Brig (big dog, the 15 yr old) is from working lines. He has been ridiculously easy, minor teenage rebellion which was easily resolved by going back to basics. We used to do epic walks, he was never trained as a gundog. He likes dummies if we’re training the others, ignores balls. His brother was equally easy.

The two pet bred need half an hour of training and being made to think then are angels.

Looking at a mate who has two wcs and two springers, I know she does similar, occasionally more. I know some dogs/lines are ‘hotter’ than others. Maybe we’ve both been lucky.

I’ll be researching working lines for the next two, I would not get pet bred types again. I don’t think it’s necessarily true that working lines shouldn’t go to pet homes or that theylll be a trauma. Given the average size of a springer litter, I think it might be hard to find working homes for all of them. I agree that breeders ought to consider new homes more carefully sometimes.
 
I agree with Cinnamontoast, I don’t think if the dog is pet or working lines has much to do with anything. Certain breeds shouldn’t be in pet homes, but that’s another argument. I have had working collies all my life and never had a problem with any of them. I wouldn’t get any other dog and to say I shouldn’t have a working collie is just wrong. Bring them up right and they are the best breed of dog imo. Mine have never had a treat, never learnt tricks and are never a hassle to me or anyone else.
 
To me the clue is in the name...working bred, working line etc etc. Bred to do a job. Probably not going to be happy with a poddle around the block once a day.

Obviously there will be breed variations and obviously not all will be cut out for that job.
In my dog's litter, one of them had no drive at all and couldn't get past a basic test on a number of attempts.

For me there's a wider debate about terminology...working bred, working type, working line etc. I know dogs described as 'working line' that are born from one, two or even three generations of dogs that haven't worked themselves, haven't got a qualification etc...you could call them dogs of working heritage because of their shape or colour etc, but if they haven't been tested or qualified or are out in the fields or on streets, are they truly 'working' dogs?
Saturday night musings lol.
 
bonny said:
never learnt tricks and are never a hassle to me or anyone else.
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Something upon which I was musing today. None of mine have ever been taught ‘tricks’, yet both of the youngsters insist on batting me with their paws and clutching my arm like they’re trying to give a paw. Weird.
 
cinnamontoast said:
Something upon which I was musing today. None of mine have ever been taught ‘tricks’, yet both of the youngsters insist on batting me with their paws and clutching my arm like they’re trying to give a paw. Weird.
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Mine does that too, I guess they learn themselves they get attention that way, mine will sit for ages gently batting me with a paw till I give in.
 
Dunno, my definition of working is that they actually work eg spring game, retrieve, primarily hunting/herding related, but I guess working also encompasses PAT dog, guide dog.

I suppose being a lap dog is more of a role than a job. Weren’t Tibetan spaniels (the little things) and chins etc bred to keep hands warm inside a muff back in the day?

Providing companionship=job/role?
 
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