Working dogs in pet homes

I had to leave several beagle owners groups on Facebook as I just wanted to slap a lot of them and tell them to walk thier damn dogs and teach it some manners! So many utterly frustrated dogs tearing houses and gardens apart and owners bemoaning the fact. When asked how much exercise and what it’s fed, the poor thing is invariably fed something totally unsuitable and gets less than an hours walks once a day! And god forbid that you suggest letting the dog off the lead without solid 6 ft fences round the place and a 20 man retrieval team as the poor dog has no recall. “It’s a beagle” is not a good excuse for anything.

Invariably I get told I just got lucky with my dog, but no we didn’t! I just give him exercise and decent food. Well my husband I said currently the one walking him as I’m out of action but he gets a minimum of half an hour every morning and then an absolute minimum of an hour and a half walk in the afternoon, most of it off the lead, so he does 4x the distance my husband does. He also gets about 30 mins of “play” after his walk where we actively engage his brain and reenforce his training. During the day he is left alone in the house, he has free run of the house but spends 99% of his time asleep on the sofa and I have never worried about coming home to anything being shredded or anything other than a dog asleep on the sofa!
He also has very good recall so I don’t worry about letting him off the lead, infact anyone he knows can recall him with ease (he is a little wary of strange men but he will still come to call he just stays slightly out of arms reach of them)

When I initially damaged my ankle, the ambulance staff/police had to force entry to the house and Jezza was easily controlled by my voice alone to make it safe for the ambulance staff to enter. we then had a week where I was in and out of hospital my dog didn’t get much in the way of exercise and my god did it show in his behaviour.

The second time I did my ankle we were on the beach with 5 children, thier mother (my sister in law) and 2 other dogs. Obviously with me screaming and passing out in pain my husbands first concern was dealing with me/ambulances etc, meanwhile my 7 year old niece was left in charge of finding, recalling and looking after Jezza whilst my SIL wrangled her own dogs and the other (less than obedient) children. I’m very pleased to say as soon as she recalled him in more than a whisper (bless her she is a lovely child but if he can’t hear the recall he won’t know to come back) he came back to her, stood beautifully whilst she put his harness on (took her several attempts) and then sat at her heel whilst everything was going on. A stiff breeze would knock her over so he very definitely did not pull or take the pee whilst going back to the car.

I have had one of our golden retrieveers bring back a live duck from the flooded back garden, he had done a little bit of gundog training but he was not the type to put anymore effort into anything then he absolute had to, lovely dog but a bit dim. His instincts obviously kicked in there!
I’ve also had a failed guide dog (another golden retriever) who loved his work in old people’s homes which consisted of sitting on people’s feet with his back to them to be petted!
Finally we also had one lovely Goldie who my father started training for mountain rescue (his energy needed channeling into something) and he loved it!

Working breeds can be fine in pet homes but only if fed, exercised and trained appropriately.
 
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cinnamontoast said:
Dunno, my definition of working is that they actually work eg spring game, retrieve, primarily hunting/herding related, but I guess working also encompasses PAT dog, guide dog.

I suppose being a lap dog is more of a role than a job. Weren’t Tibetan spaniels (the little things) and chins etc bred to keep hands warm inside a muff back in the day?

Providing companionship=job/role?
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That's the thing, we all have different definitions don't we. When I say working dog I'm thinking of something different again and some people would say my dog isn't a working dog, he's a sporting dog.
For me he does (and is qualified in) what he was bred to do.

I wouldn't dream.of keeping a dog on a yard 24/7 to ward off intruders but I suppose that is a 'job' and some people would refer to that as a working dog.
 
skinnydipper said:
Do you think it is related to stress or over excitement? One of my dogs was spinning/tail chasing constantly in the rescue environment (she would also express her anal glands). Once she settled here it stopped, it didn't take very long at all as I remember though it was about 12 years or so ago so the memory is not fresh.
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We had a shepherd brought into rescue as an unscrupulous breeder had sold her a dog from working lines and she was disabled and lived in a third floor flat. The bitch started chasing her tail and the owner actually encouraged her as she thought it was giving her stimulation and exercise. It took a long time and for a trained professional to stop the behaviour and for a long time afterwards she would start it again if she was stressed, upset or boredom had set in. Very distressing to see.
 
maisie06 said:
I was lucky enough to be given my WCS, his breeder was let down by a prospective owner at the last minute...I wasn't going to have anymore dogs after my terrier but there was something special about this little guy.

I had never had a gundog before, although I was impressed by the demos at the local game fair...TBH I never thought I could ever train a dog like that! When I got Billy I took him to the village hall type puppy classes and we did ok but I wasn't totally happy as it was, to me all about bribing the dog with food. I was under no illusion that he was a working dog that needed his mind occupying, we tried scent classes but he (and I ) got bored as the classes were big and we only got a couple of goes in the hour.

The lady who owns his dad put me in touch with a great gundog trainer and we haven't looked back...it's been hard work and at times I have despaired and at other times have been mega proud of how far we have come! Even if I don't go to a proper shoot I can still "work" him, I hide dummies in hedgelines, send him for retrieves, have him flushing birds on the farm, he's even picked up on pigeon when the guys were doing some pest control on the crops, he picks up feather and fur and we are having fun and he's doing what he was bred for. I love watching him hunt!

He is essentially a pet, he lives in the house. I am lucky he has an off switch and hasn't destroyed anything! I can get out and enjoy long walks with him, but he needs a serious amount of mental stimulation to keep him calm, gundog training does that nicely. I train on walks, sit, stay, memory retrieve etc.
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Your story is exactly what I was getting at when I originally posted. Yes working bred dogs can of course live happily in non working homes but it is all about the effort put in to ensure the dog (if highly driven) has an outlet for their energy and inherent instincts. Generations of selective breeding can't be denied but given the right activities, exercise and companionship a work bred dog can flourish in a pet home.
 
Wheels said:
Does it depend on the breed and / or lines maybe? My GSPs are all from working lines but they would be perfectly sane and sensible as pets as long as they had sufficient exercise.

We bred a litter two years ago, some went to working homes, some as pets. They are all athletic dogs for sure and we made sure the homes were active but didn't feel the need for them all to go to be workers.

4 went to working homes, we kept one and he will be worked, the other 2 went to families and go out as running / cycling companions on a daily basis.
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Breed, lines and individuals all make a difference. I have a working line GSD who is also mostly a companion, as well as farm dog, watch dog, child's play mate and guardian. He accompanies me on my jobs around the farm daily and we also trained for working trials, tracking, scentwork and dabbled in agility. With any dog it is about giving them enough to do and generally selective breeding over many generations has ensured working bred dogs need a little more than those breeds or lines that haven't specifically been bred for work.
 
bonny said:
I agree with Cinnamontoast, I don’t think if the dog is pet or working lines has much to do with anything. Certain breeds shouldn’t be in pet homes, but that’s another argument. I have had working collies all my life and never had a problem with any of them. I wouldn’t get any other dog and to say I shouldn’t have a working collie is just wrong. Bring them up right and they are the best breed of dog imo. Mine have never had a treat, never learnt tricks and are never a hassle to me or anyone else.
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What breeds do you feel shouldn't be in pet homes? I personally think whether a dog is pet or working lines does have a substantial bearing on the type of dog you choose, but each to their own. I don't know if your comment is specifically aimed at me but I never said that working bred collies should never be in pet homes, but that we chose to sell our pups to good working and/or sheepdog trialling homes. When you only have two litters in 15 years you can be choosy. I definitely wouldn't rule out an active pet home but see far too many clueless owners with collies that simply don't have an outlet for their energies and instincts.
 
cinnamontoast said:
Dunno, my definition of working is that they actually work eg spring game, retrieve, primarily hunting/herding related, but I guess working also encompasses PAT dog, guide dog.

I suppose being a lap dog is more of a role than a job. Weren’t Tibetan spaniels (the little things) and chins etc bred to keep hands warm inside a muff back in the day?

Providing companionship=job/role?
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Everyone seems to have a different definition. A working dog to me is a dog with a job they do every day - such as our sheepdogs or my ex's general purpose police and firearms support dogs. Working dogs can be gamekeepers gundogs, guide dogs, military dogs, search and rescue etc. Then there are dogs from working lines which are from generations of working lineage, ie the type of dogs you often see in sports such as IPO, agility, working trials etc. I don't consider lap dogs as working dogs. They are companion dogs.
 
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I had a collie that had originally come from a working farm. We got him at 4 months when a lot of the damage had been done. I wouldn’t have a dog specifically bred for working again. I consider ours an active home and although he lived a long and happy life, I can see he would have been far happier with a proper job to do. He could never be trusted with adult people he didn’t know, although was great with kids. He was just a mixed up sort of character didn’t find life as a pet easy.
 
I was seriously contemplating a Malinois or Dutch Herder in the future but as I am not really interested in bite sports I am not sure I could do such a dog justice. With GSDs being a jack of all trades, they suit my needs and lifestyle better and the working lines have more energy and better conformation for being on the go and outdoors with me much of the time.
 
WorkingGSD said:
We had a shepherd brought into rescue as an unscrupulous breeder had sold her a dog from working lines and she was disabled and lived in a third floor flat. The bitch started chasing her tail and the owner actually encouraged her as she thought it was giving her stimulation and exercise. It took a long time and for a trained professional to stop the behaviour and for a long time afterwards she would start it again if she was stressed, upset or boredom had set in. Very distressing to see.
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I think I was lucky then that Kitty's problem resolved so quickly. She was an EBTx. At approx. 5 months old she had had 4 previous homes - returned as the previous owners thought she was OTT and naughty. She had a warning on her cage. She was extremely stressed in the kennel environment, that and being passed from pillar to post.

In truth she was just a typical exuberant puppy who just needed an outlet for her energy and also to feel safe. It was in fact over 13 years ago, not 12 that I got her, She died in January this year at nearly 14. I was lucky that other people didn't want her as she was a fantastic dog who loved everybody and everything and I never had a problem with her.
 
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WorkingGSD said:
I was seriously contemplating a Malinois or Dutch Herder in the future but as I am not really interested in bite sports I am not sure I could do such a dog justice. With GSDs being a jack of all trades, they suit my needs and lifestyle better and the working lines have more energy and better conformation for being on the go and outdoors with me much of the time.
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Could you use them like a collie? I presume the 'shepherd' bit is just that (originally). They do that collie stare thing, don't they? I find that stare very intimidating!
 
Clodagh said:
That poor mastiff willend up being reactive, why don't people let them socialise?
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exactly my thoughts, i am pretty good at reading dogs signals and she looked to be a friendly girl, nothing nasty could have happened as mine was on the lead...its such a shame as if she does get reactive she could do a lot of damage, she could easily kill my little terrier....
 
Clodagh said:
Could you use them like a collie? I presume the 'shepherd' bit is just that (originally). They do that collie stare thing, don't they? I find that stare very intimidating!
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They don't have the instincts of a collie (or the eye used for moving stock that many collies display). Malis and Dutchies haven't worked sheep for generations - rather like GSDs - and so would be a liability rather than a help as they are much quicker to bite lol. The assistant shepherd did have a Mali bitch that helped his collies out on occasion but she worked very like my GSD - very upright and with a lot more direction and training required, unlike a collie where the inherent instinct is just being harnessed and directed appropriately.
 
GSDs never worked like collies though.
The prey drive would be too high in most shepherd types these days unless you stick to actual herding lines, of which there are more in Germany.
 
GSDs had a completely different job to collies, so a totally different working style. They were required to "tend" sheep, to act as a living fence and to move in a straight line between the flock and crops, or keep them in a line behind the human shepherd when moving from one graze to another and out of the path of traffic.

Strong prey drive is fine so long as it is controlled and harnessed appropriately.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
as an aside, and probably only of interest to me, I saw a video of a smooth collie driving reindeer in Finland the other day-nice to see someone using one!
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I would like to see it! I love watching any working dog. I saw some fantastic shots (no video unfortunately) of rough collies working cattle in Brazil.
 
Duh, totally forgot about sniffer/police dogs, bit dumb given the breed I have and the OH being a copper!

I can think of some breeds used for fighting like the Pakistani one that I saw on the internet and there’s a guy over on petforums with 2 sarplaninacs who look a bit massive for an ordinary house, but other than any dog which has been trained to fight, I’m not sure there are any breeds that aren’t suitable for pet homes.
 
Some of the decisions might be a purely aesthetic choice as well. I prefer the look of working line cockers, springers, labs etc, compared to the amount of fluff/bulkier size of their show bred cousins. Possibly people just jump on the working vs show looks and don't think that they will be wired differently as well.
 
For me, I don't think it matters whether a dog is from working lines or not - it matters what breed it is :) Theoretically I have 4 'working' dogs as they are greyhounds and lurchers - the easiest one to live with is my ex-racing greyhound, who ran 150-odd races and had absolutely no knowledge of life outside a kennels/racing track when I got him.

The young lurcher was a stray so of course I can't be sure she was bred to work, but she is a total live wire and full of energy - you have to learn how to manage them and work with what they do?
 
Interesting thread as I was only thinking about this yesterday. In my efforts to find someone clean and dry to ride I wandered around some of the estates near MK and through a couple of the housing areas. I met more than one person struggling to hold "husky" type breeds, I generalise as I am not sure exactly which specific breed they all were. All of the ones I met were on extending leads and being walked around the houses, Im quite sure that all of them, if let loose, would have been gone in a minute, even on lead the owners were struggling to make them do anything they were being told (for told, read shouted at). It just got me thinking about how many of these very cute, fluffy looking dogs are in pet homes and driving everyone slowly mad. Pot, kettle, black you might say, I have 2 ESS and a JRT, all working bred. They live in a normal house and are very much pets. We are lucky to have some local off lead walks around proper farmland and they go out twice a day, I work part time and they are never left for more than 4 hours, when Im in the back door is nearly always open, even in bad weather. Maybe Ive just been lucky but Ive never had any issues with any of them, they are all well socialised and can be trusted around any other dog or person (in as much as you ever can), they all have good recall, although I wouldnt put it to the test near livestock or main roads, that IMO would be asking for trouble. They have never damaged the house or been destructive. They are 8,8 and 5 now so are slowing down to some degree, love going out but love the sofa as much. If all goes to plan I wont have another springer, Im mid 50s now so in theory my next dog could be my last, or certainly into my 70s so it seems sensible to have something that in theory needs less stimulation or exercise to keep the little jack company.
 
to be perfectly honest, in my experience (which is more than most but a long time ago) with huskies-is that they aren't like other dogs so I'm not sure I would lump them in with collies and WCS and the like which at least have trainability bred into them. The ones I knew were in a pack but were house dogs (along with the concrete based Colditz run outside). They were lovely, personable and friendly dogs but also somewhat aloof when compared to other breeds-their main interest was definitely their canine family-the human family were secondary. They didnt do commands other than mushing ones and it was nothing to do with intelligence, they just didnt 'do' that. blackcob I know has done admirably in agility etc with hers so maybe they can contradict me in this.

they have a mental prey drive-I once saw them demolish a sofa and a heavy bookcase in about 2 mins going after a hapless field mouse-and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Both husky breeders I know gave up keeping other animals completely (cats, sheep).

They are strong, they pull way more effectively than your average puller-on race days it was all I could do to hold the big wheel dog on the ground on his own (and at that point I worked in a TB spelling and breaking yard so was used to lively on the end of a line!) and letting go of one was a complete no no. nooone with huskies at that time would ever contemplate letting one off lead-not ever (when mushing the line after attaching to the rig goes around the musher-if you have to get off you tie them to a tree). And while they were mostly OK with other dogs, when they fought it wasnt like other dogs either-they really meant it and were very efficient.

I spent three years working them and racing them (badly!) on rigs-getting up at 5am every saturday and sunday to get to Thetford Forest to work them before it became full of other users. I adored them and was offered two free pups from the person I'd been helping but turned them down after a lot of soul searching as I couldnt commit to the time or the money of working them.

25 years on and they are fashionable, so many shot for attacking sheep, so many almost certainly on the wrong diet and the wrong amount and type of work. they are amazing animals and it makes me so sad-seems to be more physical problems creeping in such as hypothyroidism. there's alot doing canicross and bikejor with people with the commitment to do them justice which is great but there are too many owned by utter muppets.
 
I'm not gonna contradict you MoC, I think I referred to them on here recently as 'furry douchebags' and I stick by that. :p

Mine go off-lead for perhaps 40 seconds at a time at agility shows. Thanks to busy rings and folk camping the night before the venues are devoid of anything to hunt, there's a hundred or more people around who'd grab a loose dog and though the rings aren't fenced the venues themselves generally are to a reasonable degree.

I wouldn't risk it for a second anywhere else, not even on the exercise areas at shows, and our training is done indoors. Their prey drive is just too high, even after years of hard work and proving themselves capable of working at a reasonably high level at agility. Once that switch is flipped they are gone. Nothing to do with intelligence (they are scary clever!), nothing to do with training, everything to do with pleasing themselves.

I love mine to pieces, don't regret the 'journey' we've had one bit and I will have more of them in the future but I should never have been able to just go out and buy one in the first place.
 
I had a bad experience with this sort of thing.

We rescued a sick working line GSD puppy. From day one we had huge issues including nervous aggression and unpredictability with no off switch.

We loved the dog and spend fortune on medication and behaviouralists but eventually had to admit defeat and PTS as the dog was not suitable as any sort of pet but was too nervous to work (we tried everything!) plus the medical problems meant rehoming was not an option. The dog had bitten or attempted to bite through a muzzle 3 people by this point so had no real choice in the matter. It was awful but I felt instant relief afterwards as it’s not easy to live with any dog like that!

I now have another dog of the same breed but this one has come from a pet line of dogs bred to be pets and the change is unbelievable. She has an off switch, lives to please and best of all has a sound steady temperament.

I don’t think people always appreciate the importance of genetics and early socialisation and that sometimes ‘loving’ a dog can’t fix what genetics are telling it to do.
 
THere is a local man who runs with his huskies, he is a big (not fat, rugby type) guy and he has them on a harness attached to his belt. They look amazing, their ground covering lope looks effortless and tireless and I am quite sure at a human running pace they could go all day. They certainly are impressive, and I love blue eyes.
Seeing as I am currently overfaced by a spaniel I would never, ever get one!

My OH - who is a complete saddo - watches this thing on Sky called 'Yukon Men'. They have a lot of huskies, but tbh they mainly don't look very husky like at all, to my eyes. Proper mutts! I wonder if they similarity to huskies would be comparable to the heavy horse on your average farm in Victorian times not looking like a modern Shire?
 
Clodagh said:
THere is a local man who runs with his huskies, he is a big (not fat, rugby type) guy and he has them on a harness attached to his belt. They look amazing, their ground covering lope looks effortless and tireless and I am quite sure at a human running pace they could go all day. They certainly are impressive, and I love blue eyes.
Seeing as I am currently overfaced by a spaniel I would never, ever get one!

My OH - who is a complete saddo - watches this thing on Sky called 'Yukon Men'. They have a lot of huskies, but tbh they mainly don't look very husky like at all, to my eyes. Proper mutts! I wonder if they similarity to huskies would be comparable to the heavy horse on your average farm in Victorian times not looking like a modern Shire?
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the ones I was involved with were Siberians, the ones on the telly as BC says are Alaskan huskies and a whole other ball game. You dont see many Sibes doing the big races as they arent as fast. a lot of the Sibes I see nowadays would have been considered over height back when, my big dog was over height (he wasnt called Chewy for nothing) but most of the others relatively small-especially of course the bitches. The leader was the smallest dog who was quite a fluffy wee thing-he was not good with dogs that werent his pack.
 
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