WORKING IN AN OUTLINE? IS IT A FAD?

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lcharles

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When i was young, no-one worked in an outline. We all flew round on our horses and ponies had fun, jumped, did dressage etc and none of us had our horses head cranked in!

I know that working in an outline encourages muscles development but its only seems to be the last few years that people are anal about going around with their horses head stuck down.....and the creation of gadgets x Think we only had grass reins as a 'gadget' before.

My horses are encourage to work into a contact for dressage now but out hacking, xc and showjumping, I really don't care where their heads are as long as they go around the course nicely.

So is being in an outline, or more so, the people that aren't in a real outline but have cranked their horses head down, is it just a fad?
 
lcharles said:
When i was young, no-one worked in an outline. We all flew round on our horses and ponies had fun, jumped, did dressage etc and none of us had our horses head cranked in!

I know that working in an outline encourages muscles development but its only seems to be the last few years that people are anal about going around with their horses head stuck down.....and the creation of gadgets x Think we only had grass reins as a 'gadget' before.

My horses are encourage to work into a contact for dressage now but out hacking, xc and showjumping, I really don't care where their heads are as long as they go around the course nicely.

So is being in an outline, or more so, the people that aren't in a real outline but have cranked their horses head down, is it just a fad?
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I agree to a point. In my childhood, no one seemed to know about this outline thing. However, going in an outline is not about cranking a horse's head in, as you put it. It is about creating energy and impulsion from behind and working the horse over its back into a light contact. The horse should be carrying itself, so that if you give and take the rein, it will remain in that outline. I agree, that when hacking, I do not think the horse should have to work correctly the entire time. I may only do the odd five minutes of this type of work whilst hacking. The rest of the time the horse is allowed to work in the way it chooses, so long as it isn't like a lama!
 
An intersting question...

I am obvioulsy from the same generation as you, and as a child, even in PC, was never taught how to ride in an outline. I can't even remember it being discussed and was a regular PC member for approx 16 yrs!

Subesquently as an adult I do find it difficult to do so, although understand the concept.
 
I think these days there is a veritable army of people who are too scared to leave the confines of an arena, so outline is the only thing to keep them from complete boredom. No one had arenas when I was growing up with horses, so it's something that luckily I never saw as a safety net. What I wouldn't give to have an arena at home now for schooling and making life easier esp in winter! :rolleyes:
 
It only seems to be quite recently that people have gone a bit outline crazy, we all used to do really well with our ponies, just the way they were!

Wagtail, i agree, i mean that alot of people don't ride in an outline but they think they are because they've cranked its head in but it isnt working from behind. Because to a novice, looking in the mirror, makes you 'look' like you're in an outline because your horses head is 'in the right place' so people must see it as the correct thing?

When did being in an outline really start to come about/matter? Does it matter?!
 
As an OAP with a backgound in racing I had never heard of "working in an outline" until I started reading about it on here!
I have broken and backed several horses using long reins and found that I had more control of impulsion and direction when they were "on the bit" , this is self evident, however with young horses out hacking I always allow them to find their own balance, using a light rein to support if necessary. They are unbalanced because they lack strength and also because they also have to compensate for the rider.
There is nothing more likely to irritate me than seeing someone returning from a hack, riding a schooled horse with strong contact, yes the horse should be schooled by working in an outline, but the aim is to improve self carriage, not to crank the head in to the chest.
A well schooled horse will hack out on a light contact and be a pleasure to ride, one can play about with various dressage movements, but please do not hang on to the reins and think that the head should be vertical, look at horses playing "dressage ponies" in the field, this is what we are aiming for.
P.S. I have my boy schooled for me by a BSII, and she talks about "working through the back", to me this is a more subtle approach, and indicates that he is being asked [softly] to use his hind quarters to generate impulsion, while a light contact is maintained to prevent all the energy "running out the front door"
P.S. I don't ride under instruction very often, but must be fairly heavy handed as I am told "please consider your reins are for emergency stops!!!"
 
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lcharles said:
When i was young, no-one worked in an outline. We all flew round on our horses and ponies had fun, jumped, did dressage etc and none of us had our horses head cranked in!

I know that working in an outline encourages muscles development but its only seems to be the last few years that people are anal about going around with their horses head stuck down.....and the creation of gadgets x Think we only had grass reins as a 'gadget' before.

My horses are encourage to work into a contact for dressage now but out hacking, xc and showjumping, I really don't care where their heads are as long as they go around the course nicely.

So is being in an outline, or more so, the people that aren't in a real outline but have cranked their horses head down, is it just a fad?
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I am not certain what you are trying to achieve with this post. Working correctly in an outline is certainly not a FAD as you put it.

The way you have worded your OP makes you seem either trying to get a rise out of folks or you don't really understand how to get a horse working correctly from behind and in an outline. The folks who you are criticising in your post are also folks who have never even been taught correctly and tried to replicate the picture without the knowledge.

When I was young (several decades ago now), I was taught properly and understood how to get a horse going correctly on the flat and over a course of jumps. The way a horse's vision works, if you crank their heads in they can't see where they are going or even the jumps.

However, if you work your horse correctly on the flat, you will notice improvements with their galloping and jumping which will all help you over XC and SJ elements

ester said:
school in an outline, hack on the buckle we're all happy with that. Different things for different purposes :).
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Completely agree Ester!
 
As a kid at Pony Club our aim was to work on the bit, that to me is the same was correct working in an outline. Horse is moving forward and driving self from back end into a good contact and working over its back.

Those who put their horse in a false outline by cranking in the head are probably the current equivalent of those who used to get a horse into an on the bit' shape with draw reins.

I hope it will pass - as it is hard work for little reward, but people need educating on what they should be doing/experiencing. A forward moving horse working well and over its back can feel like you are flying :D
 
It seems that it's a fairly new concept and wondered if it is now just the way things are and will they continue like this?

I understand the whole purpose and benefits of working in an outline as i also understand the benefits of not.

At our stables it seems the older generations are less bothered by being in an outline wheras the younger girls are almost obsessed with the 'perfect outline' which is 75% of the time a false outline.

I was also taught the line of the horses vision until recently.
 
Stencilface said:
I think these days there is a veritable army of people who are too scared to leave the confines of an arena, so outline is the only thing to keep them from complete boredom. No one had arenas when I was growing up with horses, so it's something that luckily I never saw as a safety net. What I wouldn't give to have an arena at home now for schooling and making life easier esp in winter! :rolleyes:
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We don't have an arena and have access to lots of fabulous hacking, but both my daughter and I ask our horses to work in an outline when necessary, not because we are bored, but because it helps muscle them correctly and makes them nicer to ride, plus obviously helps when you compete in dressage. However, we do aim to ride them properly and not just crank the head in!
 
TGM said:
We don't have an arena and have access to lots of fabulous hacking, but both my daughter and I ask our horses to work in an outline when necessary, not because we are bored, but because it helps muscle them correctly and makes them nicer to ride. However, we do aim to ride them properly and not just crank the head in!
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Oh no, I also make my horse work on hacks, I have no option not too :)

I just think some people may be obsessed with it when they have too much school time.
 
I'm older too and from America. The one thing that was drummed into me early on was, "jumpers are made on the flat". But no not head cranked in. Just meant putting in the necessary effort to have a well schooled horse on the flat to cope with questions asked jumping.

Every horse is different and needs different work to achieve balance, rhythm, and working over their backs. None of this includes cranking head to chest.

Terri
 
Working your horse correctly has never been a fad.
Xenophon's teachings have been studied for centuries, Nuno Oliveira's writings have been taught for decades, and so on.

My first riding instructor, whilst a bit of a dragon, had us all riding our little ponies into a contact, engaging hocks, and flexing in every way possible! And woe betide us if our hands were tight, and stiff, and this was back in the ...erm.... seventies. It was just a normal local stables, nothing special, but there we all were with our little hairy beasts, more often than not, in an outline - although with all the thick manes flowing, we couldn't see where we were going.

And when I would go for lessons with friends at their riding school, it was the same.

Not sure if this is relevant, but I've always believed that anyone can ride a horse, but it takes time, perseverance, and feel, to sit into a horse IYKWIM
 
Hmm the concept of trying to achieve some sort of outline is certainly not a new concept. Even Xenophon quotes "... if you teach your horse to go with a light hand on the bit, and yet to hold his head well up and to arch his neck, you will be making him do just what the animal himself glories and delights in." There is plenty more in Chapter 10 in The Art of Horsemanship.

And we have a few hundred centuries of dressage and many books written by riding masters (ie not just DRESSAGE masters but all round horsemen) As a kid I was definitely taught to think about how my horse moved and hence why that affected his head and neck carriage. But even then there was a lot of sawing and misunderstanding as not many instructors (like today also!) really know how to teach it.

Anyone who rides a horse should really understand some basic biomechanics of movement and how the rider can either enhance or totally ruin this and even cause injury. The term working in an outline is not a very good one and it is not how riding is taught in other countries. In Germany one is taught to first work on oneself, then to learn to work the horse over the back as a priority. Proper schoolmasters are more widely available.

An outline seems to state that it is a fixed, unmoving thing. The outline of a young and an experienced horse will vary, the outline of a thick necked cob and a fine TB will vary, and even in one training session you will be varying the outline to work different muscles and strengthen different areas. Therefore I think it is not beneficial to really think in this way, as the overall outline of the horse actually depends on many factors.
 
I also think fads and fashions in the horse world have become more common. Not sure if it is the equestrian retailer and their marketing that drives this but it has only been in the last what fifteen years this has been getting worse? The must have this season's colour rug, blingy bridle etc.... or whatever is popular on whatever competition scene you are in or dare I say it livery yard.

I suppose it is inevitable that spills over to ridden work by those wanting quick fixes and instant results.

I do agree there are many folks who are over horsed, under knowledged and over opinionated.

However, I think fads and fashion are here to stay so I will quietly cringe in the corner...
 
Thats interesting, maybe I was taught but wasnt a memorable highlight of my childhood! Maybe because I used to do well in competitions it wasn't focused on in my lessons, or we just did it so didnt need lessons on it but have done more recently with my younger horses?

Noticed it with the generations at our stables as well as at competitions too though.
 
It isn't a fad, horses have been working correctly for decades for people who know what they are doing.

When I was last properly eventing in the late 70's you didn't have the general level of understanding people now have at a broad level about having a horse working correctly but people most certainly didn't all do dressage tests with horses who weren't capable of working in an outline.

There wasn't the focus on dressage there wasn't the endless navel gazing and interrogation that now goes on, but if it puts anyone's minds at rest I had my first pair of draw reins in approx 1980 and thought they were fab!
 
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siennamum said:
I had my first pair of draw reins in approx 1980 and thought they were fab!
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OMG - and you are brave enough to admit that on here! :p

I must say that I was riding in the 1970s too, and remember wanting to work my horse 'in an outline' (which I then found beyond me) until a found an instructor who helped me understand how to do it properly (without the head cranking). So I agree it is definitely not a recent development.
 
So is there more media coverage of riders at higher events which shows this off more then?

A lot of instructors are still teaching incorrectly in my opinion and will carry on to, as self carriage is also something which i don't think they fully understand either. People only know what they are taught?

Maybe it is more highlighted now and more concerntrated on now?
 
It seems to me that the issue is not about "is working in an outline a fad?" its more about "Are there more riders out there latching onto a phrase but not really understanding what it means" As far as i am concerned nothing has changed - you need to teach your horse to work "through" from behind and go freely forwards, you need to teach him to be balanced correctly and to work on a light contact, when you work on all of this the horse will naturally start to develop the "outline" everyone is talking about, this has always been the case, its just that quite a lot of people are trying to acheive this image without really understanding what they are doing.
 
A (possibly outdated) phrase that I remember from Pony Club (late 70's) was having your pony going in good form. We weren't expected to have them on the bit as 7/8yr old riders, but 'good form' was drilled into us as the preferred way of going. This meant moving actively forward off the leg, with a light giving contact, and pony looking the way it was going. Very simple, but easily understandable for a young kid. Riding everything that way was second nature, so when it came to asking for more engagement, it seemed a far more simple concept to grasp.
 
I learnt to ride from 1970-1976 then illness stopped me for over 3 decades. So I can compare the way I was taught then and now.

In the 1970s I don't remember the term "working in an outline" BUT we were taught to ride with our legs and seat and get the horse moving in a "good shape", with the impulsion coming from their hindquarters. Hind legs not straggling behind.

This in theory would have the effect of the horse's head not to be carried too high, and with a comfortable contact. However this was to be achieved by use of our whole bodies and gentle hands, not by pulling the head down with gadgets or with our hands.

The term "overbent" was used a lot and to be avoided.


Coming back as a starting-again novice, :o the language has changed but as I understand it, working in an outline was what more or less what I was taught 30+ years ago? Or am I misunderstanding?

I would cautiously say that I do think see a lot of horses being ridden in a way which in 1976 we would have called overbent.
 
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So it isnt that the riding style has particularly changed, just the wording, description if anything? x

I guess alot chanes and we dont neccesarily realise it! xx
 
Having learn in the 80s and again now - we also were taught to have the horse going forwards freely, with its hind end uner it and a light contact on the bit. But the priority for a well schooled horse was being able to hack it anywhere, for it to go and stop when asked, help opening gates, jump in local shows, hunt, stand and wait when tied up, cope with scary situations. I taught a half wild gypsy cob to do all these things with no school because noone told me you couldn't and he was the only horse I had. He almost learnt to go in an outline himself because that's the best shape for getting up hills and ratting round the woods jumping logs.

What is it with going from the school to the show ground on a horse that spends 20 hours a day in a stable and gets turned out alone for fear of injuries?

Paula
 
I think there has been a fairly recent obsession with getting the horses head down as far as possible, look at Rollkur as one awful example....but often this is just silly riders not understanding why the horse should carry its neck that way and forcing them into that position without engaging the horse's rear ends or back.

My instructor calls it 'softening' rather than an 'outline' - this is so that he softens to my contact, engages his back and starts working from his back end rather than just falling in all over the place with his shoulders. My horse is very stiff and hasnt been schooled consistently for years, so he is finding it hard to work on the bit, and at times he does force his head down far lower than it should be but we are slowly working on it, and with every lesson we have together he improves and actually finds it more comfortable to work on the bit rather than with his giraffe neck as he liked to do before!

He will now decide all by himself, without me even asking, on a hack to go into an outline, even when I'm just walking him holding the reins on the buckle! I think that just shows that horses do find it more comfortable when they are working correctly, otherwise he wouldnt do it of his own accord.

The problems arise when riders are forcing the horse's head into this position without understanding why the horse should be working in this manner.
 
lcharles said:
So it isnt that the riding style has particularly changed, just the wording, description if anything? x
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I think it has changed in some respects, mainly what people do with their horses.
Back in the dark ages when I first started riding (1964) the kids on ponies mainly hacked, popped some jumps in a field, played gymkana games and hunted.
Ponyclub encompassed all these aspects but with some finer degree of riding skill.
There were a lot less comps around back then. Highlight of the year was the local show and gymkana. Dressage comps were not something the ordinary ponyclub member ever did.
Very few people entered riding at a later stage in life, mostly we grew up around horses.

Fast forward to the 21st century.....
Comps are everywhere, dressage is very common.
Access to schools rather than riding in fields is again the norm.
Hunting is no longer the reason to have a horse.
Internet has a lot of information (but even more Mis-information)
Dressage is a lot more accessable to the rank and file rider.
People are coming in to riding much later in life so perhaps lack the feel developed as a child.
Far more people own horses than they used to.
The skill level required to enter anything more than the local village show is considerably less than it used to be.

So I guess the rise in popularity of dressage coupled with more readily available information and a desire to do something other that hunt or charge around the countryside has moved the horse in to the areana.
 
I think thats exactly it PaddyMonty! x

kc100, i also think this is the case where horses find that working this way is more comfortable as easier once they have established it. My horse also hacks out in an outline by choice and i think he has also learnt that this is the easier way to get up hills, as i run up stairs as i find it easier than walking up them.

Interesting thoughts xx
 
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